Sportura_Collection

True, RB makes no statements about the weight, but they don't even respond to comments on weight. Second, they are purposefully misleading in their statements about what can be gotten from exhaust, midpipe, etc. They create two converging lines of reasoning: (1) not much can be gotten and there is not much difference across brands and (2) theirs has a meticulously-created "rotary" sound that is not too loud, implying others may be too loud in an unrotary way. Bolstering the effect of the 1st line of reasoning is their explicit mention that they tested a bunch of exhausts, that other brands were not getting reported HP, and one even got less HP than stock- all this without stating the brands or presenting the data. This is tricky marketing focused primarily on psychology- making powerful statements without revealing specifics. Only RB can get away with it. If you did the testing, it is not only ok but absolutely vital that you report the brands in the test. It is not about an ethical decision to not **** off competitors because RB is more humanistic and does things the right way, which is what most of you have no doubt assumed, which also seems to make RB seem even more sagely to all of you, which is RB's conscious intent. What RB understands is what I understand. The psychological effect on consumers by leaving out definite specifics is to create a general air of confusion. When individuals are met with all-around confusion, they look for and turn to any sign or source of certainty. In this case, RB would seem to be the only certainty. The language in RB's website (especially what they choose not to say within what they say) indicates this is exactly what they wanted to do, which is smart but extremely manipulative. There is zero percent probability that they did it on accident.

Is this "muddled" enough for you to pay attention to or, more importantly, to even understand?

Fanman

Your first statement is completely incorrect. When I first heard from a poster on this board that the RB exhaust was heavier than the stock unit, I wrote an email to Jim Langer over at RB. Within a day he responded to me and confirmed this fact. I posted that confirmation on this board. They never stonewalled me, or were unresponsive.

Your 2nd statement that they make the claim that there is not much difference & or gain across the board, if you go by several dyno results gotten by posters on this board is correct. Even when you have drastically different results (Armaant) getting large gains, you then get a poster that was about as scientific as can be getting results absolutely in line with the results that RB posted. In regards to their statement on sound, that is clearly their opinion as they have stated :

"what HE believes is the ultimate rotary exhaust note"

"Refined and modest while cruising; aggressive and authoritative under acceleration - that is the balance that we strived to achieve!"

Thes are clearly stated as opinions on what they tried to do, never a bad comment on competitor's products. They never berated another vendor. That is pure bias on your part. I actually like how they have stated this. As opposed to vendors like SSR Engineering when they straight up called the "Greddy" turbo kit crap, and how it was junk (for which the moderators deleted their post). I would rather have a vendor be somewhat sedate then make statements like that. In their results they posted what they got when they had no exhaust on, theirs, and then 2 other vendors. Why do they have to post the names of other vendors ? As long as you can get the repeatable results that they have claimed then you should be fine. Where the problem occurs is when other vendors make BS claims about outrageous hp and later these are proven to be false. They make claims that are real world hp gains. They make claims that have been backed up on dynoes that people that have no association with RB have proven, whereas other vendors products have not. Has nothing to do about BS results that other vendors have put out there. If RB had come out and said they had gotten 15 hp from the cat back exhaust, and later people dynoed it & gotten the 3 that they now claim, they would have been taken to task just like any other vendor that has. Has nothing to do about humanistic image, but about real world results. Several previously "trusted" vendors got evicerated by this board because they claimed un-reproduceable results and deservedly so. It's easy for a vendor that claims real world #'s to look good, because when everybody else tests out their cars & get those numbers it's called VALIDATION. Has nothing to do with marketing, it has everything to do with stating REAL results, that several other vendors have not done. Are the numbers printed the top, no, but they are close to everything that has been dynoed so far. Like other posters have stated, they might not give you the most hp, but it will be close (it's not like they produce +3.5 hp on their exhaust, and the other vendors produce +15 hp like their claims).

Sportura_Collection

My first statement is correct. They acknowledge it is heavier because it's a fact in front of everyone's face, of course. Even the most ethically questionable company could not evade such a simple truth. But they do not offer an explanation of why they chose to do that. For example, RB could have said they would have loved to make it lighter but it would have increased the price.

I do not care what the other companies do when I'm commenting on RB. I do not endorse any other brands. My statements on RB do not consider what other companies do and therefore are more objective than, for example, the statements of someone who owns so many RB products like you. I have criticized another direct competitor of RB- TurboXS.

I'll say it again. Whenever you do research, you must provide the Method, which would include the brands tested, and the Results. You have to. Otherwise you bring in an element of wild and random interpolation/guessing. It is in fact pure marketing. If you don't understand it, then you don't. I understand it and it is indeed a fact.

cjkim

^well said (two posts up)
not that i'm agreeing/disagreeing with you sportura (since i don't have any RB experience myself), but you shouldn't totally brush off the possibility that RB is an honest company. Just because you think RB isn't releasing brand names in their tests for marketing reasons doesn't necessarily make it true. I'm sure there are honest companies out there, and RB could very well be one of them (that is, unless you actually have evidence that proves otherwise) You can't call it a fact, because it simply isn't. Until they admit that they only didn't disclose brand names for marketing reasons, it is an opinion. and that's a fact

Sportura_Collection

The earth is round. P less than 0.05.

cjkim

so you're saying 95% of companies who claim to be honest only do so for marketing reasons? and what data do you have to even make this claim... or maybe I'm not fully comprehending as to why you would mention P<0.05.

Raptor2k

RB has always seemed to express a 'vague truth'. I haven't bought any of their products, primarily because I don't see any benefits of spending a thousand dollars to have a slight HP edge over a stock rx8. Sportura is correct in that there is a bandwagon of modders who don't take the time to individually question their purchase. From many posters, it seems their catbacks have had only a slight difference in tone over the stock (varying of course) as we all know, but the consensus is that it's more rotary-esque, which is again, an opinion in itself. I may be just one of the few, but buying an aftermarket exhaust which may give you a maximum power increase of about 5 hp and giving your car a weight gain is not worth $550.

Raptor2k

That's unreasonably bogus. One non-buyer changes the direction of a seller?

swoope

iTrader: (5)

rb never said i am going to pick up my sand box and go home...

at the same time a vendor for said persons was ancouncing that they have a NEW ecu solution....

constructive imput has been given...

make the tips fit the holes.... both hemispheres....
and tuck the pipes up.... see the other thread .. i got no respose....

and i think the big killer is they picked the wrong vendor to sell...

beers

Raptor2k

There are numerous threads that have people throwing out presumptions. Unfortunately, that's what happens when a car is either very elusive to horsepower gains and/or the car has a weak aftermarket. But then again, RB could have given better specfics.

Fanman

No, you state they do not even respond to comments about weight. They did. They confirmed it was heavier. Have you written to them and asked ? If you are not attacking them, they respond. I have sent several emails to several of the people that work there, and they are responsive. Far more than several other vendors. I will say that there are other good ones as well. They don't state it on their website but that doesn't make them dishonest, or disingenious like you are stating. Just wondering why they don't put it on their website is foolish. It's heavier, it's a negative. Where have you seen any company highlight the negatives of their products ? Do you see McDonalds talk about how fattening their food is ? Or how about BMW announcing on their commercials how many recalls they had on their recent BMW's ?

Some companies will throw names around all day, some companies will talk trash about their competitors. RB as a company chooses not to. Their interpretation is if they bring up names that is essentially berating their competitors. That is a philosophical difference not "pure marketing" or unsubstantiated as you claim. I understand it as something different and I've been in marketing for several, several years. Is it a commercial or marketing, yep, but does that mean it is unsubstantiated...nope. Just their test, and their results, and the way they want to publish their results. Like I said their validity stems from the fact that their results have been proven from other people, not the fact of their statement on their website. They stated their results. So what, if they didn't have their competitors name on their exhausts ? You are saying without stating names it makes it a fabrication, or pure marketing. If it wasn't repeatable, and done by independent people than that would be true, but it has been. And their results were found to be true. That is more substantial than what one person's interpretation of their statements are.

Sportura_Collection

Fanman, you are really trying to stretch things now, aren't you? Weight is such a simple measurement with the exhaust that we don't need RB to acknowledge it. There is no uncertainty with that fact. That their exhaust weighs significantly more than the stock one is indisputable. I don't even need RB to admit it. What I need RB to do is to explain why they did it. Can you buy into that or you want to insist I'm bluffing or backtracking with bs? Give me a break.

They don't need to advertise weaknesses, like their weight. But they need to explain why they chose to make the weight more when so many people have brought the question up. Duh.

However, when they test a bunch of exhausts, they really really need to include the brands tested and the results. You don't state the results of your dyno without showing the dyno, right? In the many dyno threads, every single person who has stated their dyno results has been asked to post the data.

Fanman

Just have no idea what you want from companies. If you want complete disclosure, you are looking at 200 pages per product, then you are the type that might nitpick and blame them for not disclosing something even after that. Seem like the type that likes to bitch & moan about every little thing, and nobody/no vendor can ever live up to your standards because when they answer your question, you will always have 10 more.

bureau13

RB doesn't have to disclose anything if they don't want to. Its their product, they can market it any way they want. I liked the look and the sound, a marginal power gain is fine but wasn't the sole reason for buying the exhaust, and if I were that concernd about a few extra pounds I'd eat a freakin' salad once in a while. Same for TurboXS. If you don't like their marketing, or their design choices, don't buy their products...simple. If they **** off enough people then they won't sell anything....capitalism rules!

jds

Sportura_Collection

And free voice rules too.

rotary magic

nice debate. I only wanted to know what hp I could expect with the RB products. Not sure I got a clear answer, though. Either way the "8" is a damn cool ride. I plan on doing some upgrades soon. Just not sure which to do first.

Japan8

Newer members won't know, but older members will be able to remember the extended RB debate about 2 years ago right before RB released their exhaust. The current website statement is a revision that came following the debate where RB themselves came and commented as well.

Their original statement could have been construed as "bashing" competitors. I believe them when they say they don't intentionally try to bash competitors, however, some small degree of it is likely to happen when trying to differentiate their product from others. The non-disclosure of the other cat-backs tested is fair in my opinion. RB is taken as an authority, and as such, publishing that information could hurt the competition. Considering that RB is not an independent 3rd party... that doesn't look so good.

There was discussion of the weight of RB's cat-back right after it was released. I posted numbers from a JDM rotary magazine with weights they got for various JDM cat-backs and if I remember correctly RB didn't weight in way out of line. So what if it's heavier than stock? Yeah... lighter is better, but is 3-5lbs going to really make a difference on a street car? Nope. If you're racing, then that cat-back wasn't the best solution for you anyway! You should just drop the money for an all Ti, single-outlet system and pair it up with a mid-pipe.

Nemesis8

iTrader: (3)

^Nicely said

RX4life

agree with japan..
but RB exhasut=waste of money..imo

Fanman

depends what you are looking for. If you are looking for large hp gain then all cat abck exhausts are pretty much worthless. If you are looking for better looks & better sound then the RB cat back is one of the best out there IMO.

bureau13

Exactly, there's a crucial point in there so I'm going to repeat what Fanman just said...if you're going to say RB's catback is a waste of money because of minimal horsepower gains, then you have to say that about catbacks in general for this car. In that case, at least RB is honest about it, whereas anyone selling you a catback which, on an otherwise stock car, is claimed to give you anything remotely significant in terms of horsepower, is not. Now, once you go turbo, there are exhausts out there that will net you a bigger gain, and RB will tell you that if you ask them.

For me, it was not a waste of money, it gave me exactly what I wanted from it other than an extra 300 hp, and since I can't get that from anything that costs roughly $500 I'm OK with it :-)

jds

SuperRex

My tanabe super hyper medalion exhaust is lighter than stock + gave a nice little kick to the hp+ gave a very nice sound...... so i'd say catbacks are worth it.

arghx7

catbacks don't do much for most N/A cars really, % wise. Some of you people have really high expectations. Dont' expect much gains from an N/A rotary unless you uncork all the restrictive emissions stuff mazda puts in. In the case of the 8, it's just a main cat right? Not even an airpump? Previous rotaries had a byzantine system of pre cats, vacuum lines, etc. to meet emissions.

RB really knows what they're doing when it comes to catbacks. On my (naturally aspirated) 7, I can run my 2.5" RB catback with a completely straight 2.5" midpipe and a header and it will still be a manageable sound. In comparison, my old Apex'i N1 dual catback was still too loud even with a high flow cat on there--I would get headaches driving the thing. Power-wise they are probably within a couple horses--but since the RB is so much quieter, I can run a straight midpipe and have more power overall.