Ole Spiff

"And read back through my all my posts... never once did I criticize their products. I HAVE criticized their development time. I HAVE criticized their recent PR. Neither of these two have anything to do with their products directly. I HAVE repeated said that from what I have seen and heard their products do seem to be excellent.

You've used their products and love them. Wonderful. Good for you. That isn't the topic of the conversation. It is the PR/business via their website. So all the testamony in the world about the quality of their facilities and prodcuts has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion."

I gave a logical reason for their development time and recent PR; you've chosen to ignore that. Development time has nothing to do with their products directly? How do you think products get developed? It has everything to do with this discussion because you and others have basically condemned them for being unethical in the way they do business. Having actually done business with them, I'm saying you're wrong. Your opinion vs my opinion.

This IS having a 'discourse'. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean the state of discussion in the U.S. has 'deteriorated'.

Let me help you out here...do NOT buy their products. Do NOT go to their website and read what they post about theirs or other's products. In fact, don't even read any more posts about RB and their products and claims. I want you to be protected and safe.

There...feel better now?

Ole Spiff

Problem with that approach Bridged, is the ECU wouldn't have the correct info on the condition of the car since it would only be installed once in awhile when you took it in for service. To be effective it needs to be active the whole time during the life of the car.

I think Canzoomer's approach is the best one because it's easily removable without altering the original. Reprogramming the original ECU will be instantly detectable the moment the dealer plugs your car into the computer. And I also know that the computer at the dealer talks to the Mazda corporate computers WHILE connected to your car so factory techs can help dealers trouble-shoot problems. Your warranty would be voided immediately, not to mention issues with getting smog certified every other year (something we have to do here in California to get our vehicle registration renewed).

I have a Stage 1 on order from Canzoomer; I won't be letting anybody reprogram my original ECU unless it's a factory update at the dealer.

Gord96BRG

I'd just like to point out, since I've participated in this discussion, that I've never bought a Racing Beat product (nor Rotary Extreme or Borla). I'm well familiar with the way many aftermarket equipment vendors exaggerate performance claims, especially for intake and exhaust parts. I know Racing Beat by reputation from what many, many others have written over the course of years, and it's been all good (and backed up by significant independent dyno testing, etc). I don't know Rotary Extreme, for example, beyond what I've seen written or discussed here (and NOBODY here has posted an independent dyno test of a RE intake or K&N intake). K&N is one of the intake vendors claiming power increases, and I wouldn't trust K&N's marketing department as far as I could throw the lot of them (I wouldn't use a K&N filter on a street engine that I wanted to live a long time, either, based on personal experience and extensive independent testing, though).

So for me - no axes to grind nor purchases to protect/justify. Japan8, you will find in one of my first posts in this thread that I suggested that independent testing would prove one side or the other of this discussion.

Regards,
Gordon

Gord96BRG

At this point, that's just speculation. Exactly what does the dealer diagnostic systems read? Probably a version number or revision number from the ECU code. I'd doubt they are reading the entire engine fuel/timing map and comparing point-by-point to the original map. It might be relatively easy (for RB, Pettit, or others who've "broken" the code) to change the fuel/timing maps without altering the reference information, so the dealer would not be able to tell the fuel and timing or your ECU maps have been altered.

Yes, having the dealer re-flash the ECU with an updated map would be an issue; I'd imagine RB will have to offer a service to perform re-recode the ECU for free (ie shipping costs only).

I'm giving the market a bit of time to mature before I invest in any particular solution. I want to see what people find from their Canzoomer mods 6 months down the road, and I want to see what Pettit, RB, etc. come up with for plug'n'play solutions.

Regards,
Gordon

Japan8

What you and I in particular are having is you going "nyah nyah i don't hear you" while I've gone through and given reasonable explanations. What we have is you repeatedly using logical fallacies in trying to tell me that I am wrong. Have a look...
http://www.theology.edu/logic/logic23.htm
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/

You don't have to agree with me, but you don't leave me the option of not agreeing with you. If not only myself, but other people read RB's site PR and whether or not it was RB's intention, felt that the PR cast a shadow over the competing products then said intepretation of the statement holds some validity. Since this interpretation is possible it was felt that it was not proper for them to post it. Not everyone will see it as improper, but some will and that is the issue at hand.

The ethics of how their development schedule has gone and their actual products are not what anyone has been discussing. I suggest you re-read the thread. The ethics of their PR statement regarding the possible horsepower improvements gained by aftermarket modification and RB's claim that competing prodcuts have not given the gains claimed by their manufacturers is the main topic which was being discussed. Some people have said or insinuated that RB wanted to cast a doubt over the competitors because their stuff wasn't ready yet. I have never made that statement nor made that arguement.

You did not give a logical reason as to why their development is slow. You said their shop is small. Yes, and? How large do you think the shops in Japan are? How large do you think Canzoomer's is? Making the ECU isn't even his real job... just something he is doing for the community on the side. As Gordon admitted that is more involved than producing a muffler. I'm not asking RB to have everything ready tomorrow. I'm asking why are they taking so long with a simple product than others have with something more complicated? So I ask you to logically explain how their shop being small handicaps RB more than anyone else.

In any production industry you have a development schedule and yes things do slip sometimes, but you do your best to stick to said schedule. RB has said that they expected to release the cat-back in late December and we are now in late Janurary. Why? Saying that their shop is small is not a reasonable explanation. If you are small then you have to "pick your battles" per se... or maybe a better way to put it is prioritize.

No, development time as being discussed here has nothing to do with the products directly. What is being discussed is the amount of time they had available to them in which to produce an exhaust system... their scheduling. This approximate number was then compared against smaller competitors with less experience (meaning professional RB should be able to do the same or better in similar or less time) who were working on something more complicated, but yet completed before RB.

The quality of discourse has deterioriated. You have been repeatedly using logical fallacies to argue your point. You have basically said that RB is not doing anything unethical because I have bought an intake from them and visited their shop. How does that prove anything other than they make a good product and you can trust to not get ripped off? You have not explained why a PR statement that may have been meant to be benign, but has also been negatively interpreted by several people, is not improper... or maybe should be stated as since it can and has been interpreted that way RB should not have posted that to their site. You have attempted to discredit me and therefore my arguement because I do not own any RB products... that is another logical fallacy. The quality and performance of their products is not in question here... thus ownership of their products is irrelevant.

And for the exact reason I gave with my Ford Mustang GT/Chevy Camaro Z28 example, RB's statement about competing products is improper... it's called Fallacies of Explanation... specifically non-support.

Japan8

You've just about summed up my feelings. I didn't know of RB until the MP3 came out and even then it wasn't mentioned in Japan at all... they renamed the car Mazdaspeed Familia. Since that time I've heard nothing but good things about their products, so as I've said many times... I believe that they do make a good product. I know Borla from the American Muscle Car magazines... cat-backs for the Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, etc. The magazines all had good things to say about it. However other competitors.... it's a bit of a leap of faith for me as I know little to nothing at all about them.

To really see what's going on... I agree... independent testing is needed.

Omicron

... and let's leave it at that. This has been a good discussion, with good points articulately made by all. Let's not let it deteriorate into fight, and stop it here. Thanks.

canzoomer

Reprogramming the ECU ( assuming anyone can actually do it) is not likely to be detectable by the dealer, unless it disturbs the diagnostics procedures on the OBD.

If they do it right that will not be a problem.

Things that might be a problem:
Dealer re-flash of the ECU. There is already one TSB for doing just that. Wether or not a dealer will do it to your car is something you need to take up with the dealer.

Other points:
If you wanted to run a second ECU there are some issues:
The ECU, immobilizer and your keys need to be programmed at the dealership, AS A SET.
Otherwise your car will not start.
One would have to buy a seond ECU, a second immobilizer, and a second set of keys, take to the dealers, have it put in, and have it programmed.
At that point you have a working set.
Then, you have to swap as needed.
Getting at the immobilizer is (intentionally) VERY difficullt.

Not a practical solution, IMHO.
I had already explored this route as an optiion earlier on.

Cost of a new RCU from Japan is around $900, BTW.
The immobilizer can only be supplied and installed by a dealership, and the part cost is $440.
Keys are around $100 each.

Naturally, if you re-flash your ECU, and you have to go for an emmissions test, you will have a problem.

These are the reasons we chose to go the way we did with or quest for performance.

Ta!

rex

iTrader: (2)

I investigated getting a Japanese spec. PCM from a colleague in Japan. The ECU for the 6MT "hi-power" engine comes to $724, but then you've got to ship it. According to my local dealer (so take this with a potential grain or two) the WDS system that Mazda dealers use for PCM diagnosis and programming contains the fuel maps for each geography. The "W" stands for "world-wide". So, theoretically a U.S. dealer could load the Japanese spec engine map into your PCM. The only problem is that this is illegal. They're not allowed to do this because this would be a violation of state and federal emissions laws. It would be fascinating to see how the RX-8 performs with the Japanese maps, if only for a day...

To be honest, I suspect that the after market maps developed by canzoomer and in the works by others will be superior to any that Mazda currently has. Of course, there's the interesting possibility for a Mazdaspeed PCM, but that's going to be constrained by the same U.S. emissions laws as the stock one. I'm not holding my breath for a map update from Mazda. They're being very quiet on this subject in fact.

Superfan

Just checked the Racing Beat site and saw "EXPECTED AVAILABILITY: END OF FEBRUARY" for the exhaust. That's 8 months after the release of the car. I think they're sending each unit to get the popes blessing or something. I'm hurting and that GReddy is looking nice.

1stRX8

When I had the dealer hook my car up, the diagnostic system read the ECU burn date/time and a serial number of sorts. Speculation, yes. IMHO the system would easily figure out based on VIN# compared to ECU flash date/time and build/serial number in the ECU. Of course all of that is encrypted in the first place. CZ has exploited a very practical way to deal with un-desirable fuel management while maintaining all other functions - and no one has to know about it. Not to mention resale value.

canzoomer

A properly done ECU remap should not show telltale tampering.
There are certain diagnostic routines that may show oddities, however. As for the "ET call home" aspect that some mentioned. No, that does nothappen. They "call home" if they hit certain situations not covered in training. Also when they are doing re-programming of things like security codes for the immobilizer/key stuff. In normal service that would not happen.

However a re-flash by the dealer would wipe out a re-program.

That is the biggest danger.

Ole Spiff

Not to be contradictory CZ but since I was the "someone" who mentioned "phoning home" I'd like to say that was based on personal experience. Early in August when my oil light came on briefly and I took it to the dealer, they hooked up my car to their computer which connected to Mazda factory computers and they did the analysis. They came back with the oil pan baffle diagnosis.

I don't know what all the factory techs were able to see on my car but I do know for a fact they <i>were</i> reading the status of the electronics because the dealer was watching them do it and talking to them on the phone.

If reprogramming the ECU would present the hazard of losing my warranty and/or free service (I have an early RX8) then I'm not taking that chance. I don't mind buying (which I have on order) your Stage 1 mod and adding that because it can easily be removed if needed.

Just my personal views. I also would hate to pay to reprogram the ECU which could be money instantly lost if the dealer reprograms it without telling you first.

canzoomer

Read again, where I said:
"They "call home" if they hit certain situations not covered in training."

This was one not "in the book"

I too watched them take over my car from headquarters last fall.
The dealer had *no manuals, no parts* so *everyting* was "not in the book"for them.

As for dealer re-flashes, one has the right to tell the dealer to NOT do any procedure without your permission.
However some of the re-flashes are for important updates..

Racing Beat Inc

To: Forum Members
From: Racing Beat

Let me make some brief comments on some of the issues that have been brought up on this thread.

1. Racing Beat does not bash other competitors’ products. There is no one perfect product for any given application. Every competing product has its pros and cons, you must decide which particular aftermarket component meets your budget, reliability, safety, and performance requirements.

2. Racing Beat engineers, designs, and manufactures performance products for a wide Mazda consumer base. We intend these parts to be reliable, bolt-on components that can be installed by the average enthusiast, week-end mechanic, or racer. Also, we will build racing engines to your specifications.


3. Racing Beat conducts extensive in-house testing on our products. We utilize our engine dyno facility to test our engine components for repeatable performance gains and reliability prior to their release. We invite anyone to stop by our shop, including our competitors, to view our facility and review our test procedures. This same dyno is used to test competitors’ products to verify their claims. The results of these tests will be published in a fair and factual manner as possible. It is your choice to believe these results or not.

4. Yes, Racing Beat is commercial business; however, we are a group of “car guys” that love making performance parts, but we will not make parts that are “cheap”, unreliable, or unsafe. RX-8 owners have spent a considerable amount of money on their cars and we assume that ride quality, reliability, sound level quality, etc… are important factors. If you want a loud, buzzy, juvenile sounding muffler or intake, you can gladly shop elsewhere.


5. Racing Beat produces only Mazda products. For over 30 years, we have been developing components for rotary applications; we are not latecomers just now jumping on the bandwagon. We have an on-going consulting and working relationship with Mazda and co-operate on selected projects. The details of any such project is proprietary and is held in strict confidence.

6. Occasionally, new projects can be delayed. Although it may seem that we are proceeding slowly with the RX-8, we also have ongoing projects with theRX-7, Mazda 6, Protégé, Miata, and Mazda 3. Much of the technology on the newer cars is state-of-the-art and we have invested in equipment, personnel, education, and software to understand this latest technology. We try not to “paint ourselves into a corner” by providing exact release dates for new components, as unexpected delays can and do occur. Attempts will be made to keep you informed of the progress of each project through the website, email messages, and forum postings.


7. If you have an issue with one of our products, test results, or marketing practices, you can contact us directly to address these issues. We do not hide our identity behind an anonymous user ID. My name is Jim Langer and I, or any other Racing Beat employees can be contacted via this forum, contact links on our site, by telephone, or by mail. We will gladly answer any question that you have.


Best regards,
Jim Langer
Racing Beat, Inc.

mikeb

thanks for the info racing beat

do you have any eta on any products for us rx8 owners

Landon_Starr

I second that, helpful info, racing beat.

But claiming that others "hide" behind anonymous screen names may be a bit much. Every dealer/vendor I've dealt with here has always been more than happy to offer names, direct phone lines, direct e-mail addresses.

Alot of people on here you may be singling out have developed a lot of trust from the RX-8 population, it may not be business-wise to make weighted comments of that sort.

--Landon

Racing Beat Inc

Sorry if you got the idea I was singling any one in particular, I tried to keep my message vague enough, but still reply to some of the issues that were brought up.

As a aftermarket vendor, I am wary of venturing into a forum. We can feel like we are walking on eggshells because many of our posts are viewed with skepticism. Many people think we are out to downplay the competitor’s products or overstate the performance of our products just to make a sale. Many of the forums that I have dealt with do not allow the posting of commercial replies by vendors in the “public” rooms and have a specific “vendor” rooms for this purpose.

Most of my replies are written in a “politically correct” corporate manner, are there times when I would like to bash away with sarcastic wit? Yes, many!

Now lets have some fun and talk about the real reason we are here, the RX-8. Just 30 minutes ago I finished a product shoot for a new and relatively simple product that we will be introducing next week. We are proceeding along with our “virtual engine” test bench for our ECU project; full details will be posted on this project.

Drive on!

ArXate

I disagree with you. His language was perfectly fine.

project

Any new updates or has this discussion been picked up in a different thread that I'm just not aware of?