Gord96BRG

I suppose if it were almost a year, you'd be right. First deliveries in the US were in July. It's January now. That's 6 months after the car was release. "Almost" a year? Is your calendar year shorter than anyone else's?

2. Unethical business - or brutal honesty? Let's see, RB say most vendors are overstating the HP gains they might achieve, and that the real HP gains are smaller, maybe 2 or 3 hp. Then they release a competitive product, that makes maybe - 2 or 3 hp. How exactly is that unethical? Maybe, they're actually looking out for the RX-8 community - it's possible to be in business and not want the aftermarket community in it's entirety to get a reputation as blowhard liars (by making misleading or overstated claims). Maybe an honest vendor is the reality check the other vendors need to reign in their claims? We'll know when someone independent puts the competing parts on a car, back to back, and runs a few dyno runs each. We won't know until then. Either RB will be eating crow, or the other vendors will be making excuses. I can wait to find out!

Regards,
Gordon

Japan8

[QUOTEi]
I suppose if it were almost a year, you'd be right. First deliveries in the US were in July. It's January now. That's 6 months after the car was release. "Almost" a year? Is your calendar year shorter than anyone else's?

Um no... it's been out here almost a year... maybe more. I didn't exactly memorize the date they shipped. If they are in that well with Mazda corporate then the possiblity of getting the pre-prod and prod engines would likely be by that schedule, not the US release date. Don't be a smartass.

Gordon... it's not RB's job to give public service announcements. The fact that they are competing for your dollars against these other prodcuts makes it unethical. Or are you in the Microsoft business style camp? Do you even understand what's wrong here? It's so simple... THEY ARE NOT IMPARTIAL!!!! You say the same thing about other companies dynos and hp claims... you want an independent third party to test it and see what they get. The same thing here... RB is NOT in the position to make said statement... correct information or not. They aren't impartial, and so it looks bad for them to make such comments.

Making these claims officially on their website was a big no no. If they were just "looking out for the RX-8 community" as you claim, then they could have simply "leaked" that info to someone they know whom is close to the RX-8 community. This would be more ethical and look less self-serving.

Depending on how much RB goes for hp vs noise with their prodcut... we'll see what happens. They may make the same, less or more (I doubt less). Either way I bet it will be a well-made product... had better be for how long they're taking. I mean really... even if you go by the US delivery time for when they got their motors... they got a PRE-PRODCUTION one... meaning before release. And in that time people have made ECU mods... that seems like a bit more work than muffler to me. How about you?

Lock & Load

Easy solution to the rb fix buy Australian aftermarket parts eg HYMEES exhaust .
michael

Gord96BRG

I'm not being a smartass, thank you. Maybe in Japan it's almost a year (you don't have to memorize the date shipped to recall that first deliveries there were in late April), but Racing Beat is a US company. First deliveries in the US were July. Half a year.

Quote:

Gordon... it's not RB's job to give public service announcements. The fact that they are competing for your dollars against these other prodcuts makes it unethical.

Nothing unethical about it - head to head comparisons in advertising are normal in the US, comparing feature for feature, or mocking the claims of the competition. However - RB isn't even advertising it - they have the statements posted on their own web site. You have to go looking for it at RB to find it. I see nothing unethical about it, especially since RB isn't naming names. Obviously you have to consider that RB is competing with some of those vendors and factor that into your individual evaluation of the merit of RB's claims. Impartiality isn't a factor - otherwise, nobody would be allowed to claim "my product is the best" or "better than theirs", or "my product is built better than theirs using higher quality materials and workmanship". Any such advertising claim is partial! IF RB lied, then that would be unethical - how exactly is telling the truch unethical? Sure, the competition doesn't like it and finds it embarrassing - that isn't RB's problem, nor can I find fault with them for that.

Quote:

And in that time people have made ECU mods... that seems like a bit more work than muffler to me. How about you?

Who has a plug-in, pre-mapped ECU mod out yet, besides Canzoomer? (Who just started shipping last week anyway) As far as I'm aware, nobody else (except maybe Ric Shaw) is shipping anything. I agree it's a whole lot of work and with the RX-8's extensively integrated system it's extremely complicated. This week we have Canzoomer, and maybe Ric Shaw out of Australia (again, just announced), but I don't think RB is really way behind the others in terms of ECU mod offerings yet.

I guess I'm just very sceptical myself of the vague claims made by many vendors, and hate the marketing hype (for example, K&N's advertising is a masterpiece of misleading smoke and mirrors). I'm more appreciative of a company who is willing to say "you know, there really isn't as much HP in Renesis intakes and exhausts as some vendors would like you to believe", even though it will actually hurt sales of their products (when released) along with everyone else's, and I'm appreciative that the company doesn't then say "theirs only make 2 hp, but ours make 10 hp!", instead they say "ours make the same 2 hp as everyone else's". On the contrary, if we're discussing ethics then I'd suggest RB is showing more than their competitors!

Regards,
Gordon

Japan8

I meant I wasn't looking to buy a car as I just bought one in Janurary... I wasn't waiting on baited breath for the car to ship. Thus I didn't know exactly when other than the early part of 2003. The info card I picked up on it somewhere said something like spring 2003. Yeah yeah it's winter... Jan is nearly finished.. then Feb and March. That is almost a year, isn't it.

AND like I said... RB has a preproduction engine. Giving them one in June when the car comes out in July is rather pointless. Who knows when they really got it, but production engines were available since April... since this was a pre-production model... would Jan 2003 be unreasonable to consider?


And I would have had less problems with their statement if they did already have a product on the market and claimed "we tested their and got 2 hp and well ours only makes 2hp too" or even "ours is better than theirs." But they don't... they have nothing to compare feature by feature... nothing but saying "well the competing vendors overstate hp gain. OUR tests show only Xhp is possible." And you really wonder which exhaust systems and intakes they tested and got their findings.

Yes if they lied it's unethical... how do we know they aren't? I'm not trying to disparrage them, but rather can you or I verify their claim? It runs counter to what the vendors claim for their products. It could be a marketing ploy... how do we know different? Because they are RB? That is a logical falacy. Particularly made worse because they ARE an interested party.

BING... Canzoomer's is out, Ric Shaw's is out it seems and Knight Sports in Japan has one (import vendors will likely be selling soon). And yes even if Knight Sports is in Japan it still provides SOME level of competition... if the US market has nothing, people want a ECU mod... they'll order one from a JDM importer... and RB knows this as well a Mazda. Likely ONE reason why the got a pre-production engine to start working on.

AND anyway what was your point? The ECU mod is more complex than a cat-back exhaust system and CZ didn't have a pre-production engine to start his work with OR even Mazda's support. But his product is out. Ric Shaw's is out. Knight Sports' is out. Where's RB? If the exhaust is easier to do, then they should have had it out by now. Plain and simple. Their site even said they were planning on late Decemeber.... well boys January will be over soon... where's the beef...muffler I mean. :p

You're skeptical of other vendors, but do you notice how you aren't holding RB to that same standard? Where is their proof? If the systems they tested don't put out like the vendors said, then put up your dynos and call them out. If they are "doing us a favor" then come out with it all... evidence and names. I'm very skeptical and cynical about not just vendors but the manufacturers as well. At least in the government and the IT industry I've seen too much of what goes on behind closed doors... I trust companies very little.

If RB is all that you and many other RB-lovers say they are... then they needed to say nothing. Let the other vendors make their outrageous claims. The community knows RB, and their quality. They'll come buy RB products anyway. What about a difference in hp claims? Well... as you said product comparison ads... WHEN you HAVE a prodcut to compare with.

The point is RB's ethics LOOK shakey when they cast a shadow over the competitors when they have no product and show no evidence. It's almost funny that they backtracked on the intake... "it makes little hp as Mazda did such a good job designing it... well one vendor's prodcut does make the numbers it seems, but is really noisy. We'll work on something simliar that addresses the noise issue." It looks shakey when no one asked them if they thought competing prodcuts made the numbers or not, but they come out with a statement like that. People wanted to know what they're working on and when it'll come out... not does brand X muffler really give me an extra 13hp? The vendors made their claims and posted their dynos... if they are incorrect for whatever reason... fine. Where is RB's proof that the dynos are wrong and an explanation of why they're wrong? You just take RB at their word, but are skeptical of the vendors... anyone see a problem with that, or is it just me?


As a matter of fact...about comparison advertising. Take a look at that car magazine on your coffee table, do you see Ford saying "The Camaro Z28 doesn't make 320hp, it only makes 250hp" or even "The Camaro Z28 only goes 0-60 in 6 sec, but the Mustang GT goes 0-60 in 5.4 sec." No you don't. Because GM would take them to court for liable. And an independent third party would be called in to perform the testing. If Ford was proven wrong...ouch! No... the ads read "Motor Trend Car of the Year" not "Ours is better because our tests show it and we say so. " Other ads read "Camaro Z28 0-60 in 6 sec., Ford Mustang GT 0-60 in 5.4 sec -April 2003 Motor Trend Magazine." Notice they use an "independent third party" (I dunno how "independent" they really are...but....) to provide the evidence for their claims. Often they don't directly make a claim... they just use quotes from the article "Best Mustang yet! -April 2003 Motor Trend Magazine" "Greatly improved handling! -April 2003 Motor Trend Magazine" etc.

So no... RB isn't allowed to make direct claims like that... it is unethical and if they named names they could be sued (so I suppose they can't come out with all the evidence and names)... they are basically calling the competition liars... liable. The auto manufacturers can't and don't do it and neither should RB...

s13lover

Since I don't have an RX-8 I kinda have an unbiased view on this arguement. (at least I think so )

Before I started reading this thread I thought nothing at all bad about what RB had on their web page. Yes, it did seem like the parts were taking forever, but it seemed to me that this highly reputable and successful rotary tuning company was just taking their time to develope the exact products they wanted. I also believe that those people who are upset about RB stating that other companies claims on HP gains are too high maybe own those products, and are mad - Yes/No?

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

i don't care what the marketing crap said, our cars didn't arrive till late july or early August.

Japan8

Check the sig. I don't own an 8... would like to though. So I don't have any parts to be mad about... clear? :D

Japan8

What was that about? Check the location.... Japan. Gordon and I were mainly talking about the JAPANESE shipping date.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

If that was the case I appologize... it seemed to me at the time your were insisting the US cars have been out for almost a year.

Japan8

Nah, I was refering to the Japanese model... as that would be when RB could get the first production engines off the assembly line.

NoVa

I just received this newsletter from Racing Beat. Sorry in advance if this was already posted.

Dear RX-8 Owner,



Just a quick update on the progress of new parts development for the RX-8! Jim Mederer and Damon Wong are continuing the ongoing project of designing and building a comprehensive test bench for use with the RX-8 ECU reprogramming project.

The framework of the bench has taken shape and the various hardware components are being secured and wired into place. Once finished, this test bench and reprogramming station will allow us to simulate engine operation with respect to operation and load. Based on this data, and combined with information from the engine dynamometer, we can modify the performance parameters of the ECU.

Currently we do not have a firm time frame on the availability, or pricing of this service. The reprogramming service would require that the ECU unit be unplugged from the vehicle and send to our Racing Beat facility. The reprogramming service will be completed on a "same day" basis and shipped to the customer later that day.

Suspension Springs

Suspension springs for the RX-8 are on the way from Japan and should arrive within the 1-2 weeks. Once they arrive, information will be posted on the site regarding pricing and technical specifications.

Jeff_pap31s

Nice!

Ole Spiff

You know what annoys me about all this? It's the ridiculous level of criticism that goes way beyond what RB actually did. IF they had said on their web page "the other add-ons companies are misleading you...only OURS gives you big hp gains!" then I'd go along with the criticism of RB, but they did just the opposite. What I read was a rather frank and honest admission about what to expect from add-ons for this particular car, by a company who DOES have a financial interest in selling you one.

The fact that it's taking them so long to come out with add-ons backs up their claims in my mind. They really are (and have been) working hard to TRY and get better performance rather than just slap something together, go by the old "tried-and-true" rule-of-thumb claims and start raking in the cash. All the while knowing that hardly anyone would take the time, or even have the ability to verify if the claims they made are accurate. The only "anyone" who could would be ANOTHER manufacturer. Can you say "lawsuit" boys and girls? I'll bet dollars to donuts they did get their competitor's products (every manufacturer does this) to see what they actually have to compete with. Their competition must not have done any better than they were...and they KNOW that they've done everything possible.....hence the statements.

I see their frank admissions as being them wanting to avoid any misunderstandings about what to expect from these add-ons. There is such a thing as class-action lawsuits against an entire industry. Not only are the "other" add-ons not giving big hp boosts, but THEY can't get those boosts either. They obviously HAVE been spending months and months trying to create something worthwhile for the price. They openly admit Mazda engineers did a pretty good job; something that is unusual for manufacturers who don't put the time or effort into getting that high a level of performance out of a "stock" system due to the expense necessary to reach that level. Mazda obviously did; they did the same thing RB is doing...REALLY working it to try and get everything they can out of it. Mazda did it to get every bit of hp out they could, and look at the complaining over hp even as it was! Can you imagine if they'd brought it out with only an advertised 220 hp? Everybody would slam them for not "trying harder" and immediately jump on aftermarket mods to "show them" what they "should have" done.

When you ask people to spend their money on your product, you worry that they won't feel it's worth what you're asking them to pay. I'm reminded of an old saying in the graphics/print industry: "There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over." RB has chosen to take the time to "do it right" and I'm sure from reading their "cautions" about what to expect, that they themselves were surprised at how little was to be gained. They said as much; and by saying so, they clearly wanted customers to be prepared for the low hp numbers they will state their add-ons provide. Since they couldn't honestly promise a very big hp boost for a muffler system, they stated they spent a lot of time getting it to sound good. Something I appreciate since I don't want to ruin the enjoyment of the car with a too-loud or harsh-sounding exhaust just for a few lousy hp that I won't see unless I'm near red-line on the tach.

They are admitting the add-ons for the RX-8 are not going to produce the extra power that people have typically come to expect from such add-ons in the past. Coming from a company that makes its living by making and selling add-ons....I find that rather honest myself. I didn't see them trashing the competition as much as trying to cover their own customer's expectations.

But hey...if you feel RB is that bad, then don't buy their products. The couple of people who feel that way in here aren't going to put them out of business by not buying. The rest of us who think it's only a muffler, not an international treaty, will evaluate it on the basis of "what it does for me" and buy or not buy accordingly. Their reputation and business practices are fine by me. I've bought from them before, and I'll buy again if I feel it's worth the price.

Japan8

Guess what....from RB's site "Others have already brought products to the market with what we have found to be some rather exaggerated claims. Rather than echo these claims we prefer to report exactly and honestly the results we see." It sounds like they are saying "other add-ons companies are misleading you..." "only WE will tell you the truth." Sounds a lot like they are saying what you said you wouldn't like.

You know what annoys me about all of this? All I hear is... "RB has been working so hard." "RB doesn't deserve this." "Since RB says it, it MUST be true..." You and several other people just take whatever RB says at face value because they are RB. Sorry it doesn't work that way. In my book RB has no reputation other than hearsay. I've never bought anything from them, dealt with them, or even heard their name until lthe MP3 came out.... and I've been a car enthusiest since I was 3! So why am I just going to trust them and believe what they say? What reason do I have to?

It's nice if RB wants to sit back on their laurels to sell prodcuts and back themselves up, but for people new to the rotary world, they have nothing to back themselves up with other than paper... and it will only get you so far.


Please explain by what logic does taking excessively long to release a product backup their claims that other companies are "exaggerating their claims."

As I stated in my last post... counter claims from a competing manufactuer are automatically tainted. That is why the real big boys don't do that... they use claims and data from a third party. So if a rotary magazine picks up a host of aftermarket parts and tests them, I'd be willing to more readily believe those claims.

I have little doubt that RB did buy and test the competing products for the reasons that you gave... to see what they are up against. Everyone does that in all industries... that's nothing special.

And I see no reason to take their "frank admissions at face value." I'm not saying I believe or expect to see a 15-20hp boost from a mod outside of ECU. Rather why would I take RB's word over anyone else's that a cat-back will only net you about 5hp... not the approx. 10hp that seems to be the median among those offered?

Ok then... that is true. So let's check then... that's fair. I've started a poll to see if everyone is satisfied with their product... we'll see how loud and harsh the cat-backs are. Check it here.

If they had said this in reference to only their products then there'd be no problem. If they were quoting a third party that ran the comparison testing... a magazine, anything... then I would have no problem with the comments RB made about exaggerated claims.

RB original claim... "Intake – enlarging the oval inlet to the factory air box - +2 HP (this modification eliminates the VFAD intake duct.)"

RB later claims... "Although we held some early reservations that a simple "open element filter" intake configuration would produce additional power, our initial testing has shown some promise with this type of intake. But, one negative aspect of this configuration is the extremely loud intake sound that they can produce."

AND guess what boys and girls... they found extra power NOT from just enlarging the oval inlet to the airbox... no... it was using an open element design... sounds like K&N...

So what do you want to bet that their muffler will put out more than 4hp when release?


Who knows. I will try to avoid them, but like I have said in other threads... I do acknowledge that they have the right kind of "pedigree" and satisfied customers to know that their products are good. maybe not always the best performing, but well built and reliable stuff. Thus there may be something that I'd rather get from them instead of somewhere else. But that remains to be seen...

I vote with my wallet and word of mouth. If you don't expect and demand higher standards from companies then there won't provide it. Plain and simple...

This is for Gordon especially... RB says "Testing has been conducted on the Racing Beat engine dyno with both pre-production and production Renesis engines." If they've been testing things since they had the pre-prod engine, then they are very late. They are very late if individuals with no connection to Mazda and no pre-production engine can produce an ECU mod before they can produce even a muffler. So again I ask... where's the beef (from the old Wendy's commercials in case anyone missed it)?

Ole Spiff

Well Japan8, by your own admission you've never bought or used RB products. I have. Not only that, but I went down there and actually saw the facility, met the people including Damon one of the owners, talked with them and actually bought and installed an RB product on my Miata.

I prefer actual testimony from real owners/users than heresay from grandstand critics. RB is not a huge company; it's in a small industrial park in a "suite" but it's a very clean, high quality environment and the people there are friendly and genuine enthusiasts. They own Mazdas and use their own products on their own cars. Damon has a gorgeous red RX-7 all tricked out.

I have confidence in their products and integrity; and that's from an OWNER/USER. I will continue to defend them based on my OWN experience against people who have NONE with them.

Japan8

And read back through my all my posts... never once did I criticize their products. I HAVE criticized their development time. I HAVE criticized their recent PR. Neither of these two have anything to do with their products directly. I HAVE repeated said that from what I have seen and heard their products do seem to be excellent.

You've used their products and love them. Wonderful. Good for you. That isn't the topic of the conversation. It is the PR/business via their website. So all the testamony in the world about the quality of their facilities and prodcuts has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

Japan8

You know it is rather funny how people can become almost religiously fanatic about defending a company/product that they like... even if they are in no way related to said company. Like the Bud Light comercials... "tastes great!" "less filling!" :D

DaveT

OK, suppose that I send Racing Beat my ECU and they do their thing to it, then I have to go to the dealer for something and they have some TSB or other reason to re-flash my ECU. What happens to the re-programming from Racing Beat? and what happens to my warranty if dealer is able to read the ECU and know it has been re-programmed?
I've thought all along that surely some enterprizing individual could get their hands on the original ECU program (before the catalytic converter issue re-programming) and make it available.
If the Racing Beat mod can be overridden by the dealer, then the plug-in version (like canzoomer's) is a more attractive option from my way of thinking.
Comments anybody?

Superfan

Kind of like almost everyone here defends the Mazda Rotary Engine... Right?

DaveT

And then there are those who don't have a dog in this fight....or do they?
Makes me wonder if Japan8 works for an RB competitor or has some other reason to pour gasoline on this fire.

Japan8

Not exactly. If the name of the forum was RB Club.com, then yes... I'd very much understand.

But more precisely what I was pointing at is that you cannot even have a mature discussion because if a negative point arises, then the other person becomes like a petulant child and ceases to listen. All "discussion" after that becomes "I see a problem with X" "Na uh! I'm not listening to you!"

Thinking a little more about... maybe more a problem endemic of internet forums.

Japan8

See my location, and check my profile. I've also stated in a different thread that I work in the IT industry here in Tokyo. I find little reason to hide such information. I WISH I could be involved in the auto or bike industry without having to work for the manufacturer.

I've poured gasoline on nothing. I've made no unreasonable arguements. I've made no ad hominem arguements. An opinion shared by at least a few people on this forum was stated. I agreed and offered a logical explanation as to what lead me to believe so and later added some supporting evidence. At no time did I say buying RB products was a waste of money or in anyway make a derogatory comment about the products, services, their office or the people whom work there.

What I did do was question the length of time is has taken to develop products for the RX-8 and personally felt that the hp comments were inappropriate. Has the state of social discourse in the US become so bad that you cannot question any "establishments"?

tommy12g

DaveT I agree with you 100% I like Canzoomers also because I can just take it off and bring the ECU back to Stock for Warranty Issues when necessary

Bridged13B

You could always buy another ecu and send that one out to Racing beat. Im not sure how much these things cost but that would avoid having to mod the original.