Fanman

The reason people believe RB's claim on hp is because they have been spot on. With cat back exhausts the dynos with RB, Borla, & Greddy's units have been about the claimed 3 hp. For midpipe/hi-flow cat units RB said they got about 8 hp. Guess what other people got with their hi-flow cats & midpipe units...about 8 hp. They don't make claims like put an exhaust on, get 12 hp like some other vendors claim. It's not the fact that just because they are Racing Beat that people automically believed them, it's that they came out and said this is what we got, and in other people who post on here got the same results.

Nobody, not even Racing Beat has come out & stated they want to be a heavyweight modifier of RX cars. As a matter of fact they came out and said the exact opposite at their open house after Sevenstock. They told us that they are working on parts that are considered "mild" modifications, that they weren't getting into the turbo & SC's. Intakes, exhausts, etc are mild modifications. Nobody has ever called them any differently. If you look through their catalogs, the more serious stuff is left to other vendors (shocks they have Koni & Tokico, electronics for the RX7they have Blitz).

You try to claim that you were a hotshot mechanical engineer building race cars, yet you have such a problem with this company that you are not willing to spend 20 minutes on (removing the front bumper takes all of about 20 min.) the problem.

The cat back unit is top quality, and people buy it because of the quality, not just because of the name on it as you say. The quality is on par with the Borlas, & the Greddys. It's not like they have come out and said "We're Racing Beat, everybody else charges $600 for their cat back unit, but because who we are ours is going to be $1000." People have bought RB, not just because of who they are "Just because they are RB" they buy it because the quality is good, & the price is competitive.

I understand dDub's post (although I say steal away, as long as you make good products at a decent price), and it is far more insightful then your comments. If you think RB makes such a poor product, that people are just buying because of the name, show us where people have returned it (moreso than any of the other "good" vendors) because the quality is so bad or so much worse than anybody else ?

ddub

Racing Beat does make some quality products, that's true. I am not debating the quality factor, merely the R&D, planning, and outcome.

The rx8 stuff seems to be fairly on par so far, from what I've seen. However, I think their exhaust could have been made lighter, but with ALL racing beat exhaust components for ALL cars they make things for, it is never light. Why? I have no idea

The streetable/collected header for the 2nd gen that replaces the stock precat/s (depending on year) and downpipe is actually HEAVIER than the stock exhaust manifold, downpipe, and precat/s and the header has NO precat/s. I just don't understand it. Guess the same type of thing happened with the rx8 catback, oh well.

Fanman

That's why I have a JIC Titanium exhaust now.

ddub

Yep, I was thinking of saving for a titanium one, but I'm either going to go custom mandrel with a single muffler/dual tips, or just cop out and get the rx8store exhaust because I don't want to go to through the hassle for custom.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

Try to find a dyno sheet that disproves Borlas dyno sheet of 8rwhp

Aoshi Shinomori

I don't think I've seen this dyno sheet, but even from people with the Borla system(which I happen to like a whole lot) it seems that there isn't much of a gain at all? I guess I could be totally wrong though.

Fanman

So the only proof you have to go on is a vendors claim of 8 whp. The the SR Motorsports pullies actually give 12 hp (which the dyno I did had 1-2), the K&N intake guarantees 10 hp (even though Tuner Mag got 4 hp).

And your post in a previous thread about the RB intake only adding 1 hp, as proved by Polak was disingenious. It gave 1 hp in 3rd, but 10 hp in 5th but you chose to conceal that fact. Way to be objective.

It's easy for a vendor to be honest and say 3 hp from a cat back. The vendors coming under scrutiny are the ones making large hp claims, such as Borla, or SR Motorsports, etc. You ever notice that few people question RB (because it was dyno proven - see Tuner magazine, see Polak's dyno, etc.) or other vendors that are realistic. For example, RP Performance claims 8 hp for their supercat pipe. What have people dynoed ? 8 hp.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

I have the dyno sent by david borla... they claim 8hp, the max gain on the dyno was actually well over that, the peak power went from 172.6 to 180.1

Little RX8Club history lesson... People loved Borla back then. At the time David was posting on here regularly and even working on a header using input from members. Then RB blatently said that was impossible to gain more then 3hp, David refused to get into an arguement, and then for the last 1.5 years the max hp possible from an exhaust was 3hp, no proof of that ever surfaced, and we never heard from Borla again :o

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

The 10 hp was an unreplicated blip on the dyno in 3 out of his 4 runs. Stock compared to REVi+REV8 revealed 1 hp period.

Aoshi Shinomori

I hope you didn't think I was denying your claim, I just haven't seen it. I thought I remembered a member or two dynoing the Borla and seeing gains of 3-4 hp? I guess I'll have to try and find them. I love Borla, my brother had a catback system of theirs on his RSX-S and it sounded great with a nick little kick. I also remember when David would post on this website, RG was talking with him about header designs at one point and then he disappeared. I wish more people like him would come back, nice to get input from actual vendors, especially such companies as big as Borla.

Fanman

I like Borla as well. Had a few posts in his header thread. Makes a quality product. So a vendor sent you a dyno. I'm sorry I believe people on this board doing independent dynos with no vested interest other than showing losses or gains. I trust vendor dynos about as much as a blank piece of paper, RB or anyone else. What I trust is that they stated these were the gains that were from these parts, and other people have backed it up. Example is the cat back at 3 hp, the midpipe/hi-flow cat at 5-8 hp. If you believe the Borla dyno, how come no one has been able to replicate it ? Or how about K&N showing a dyno that gave 8 hp with their initial Typhoon unit, only later to have it widely discredited.

Polak basically performs the test about as scientifically as he can (same dyno, within an hour, same conditions), with no affiliations to RB, yet you blow off his findings. 1hp was in 3rd, & 10 hp was in 5th (closer to 1:1 ratio). Where is he showing only 1 hp gain with intake & exhaust outside of 3rd ? At the top, he already said they let off. A vendor with a monetary motive sends you a dyno with unknown conditions, times, etc and you take it as gospel.

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...chmentid=49386

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

a) show me when there was ever a before and after dyno of just a Borla that disproves their claims. I've searched and search - nothing exists except references to good old RB's page...

I've seen all these high flow cat claims of 8hp. I see RB claim with a testpip max gains of 8hp are practical - do you really think a high flow cat is going to flow as well as a testpipe? Guess RP's gains are overstated then as well.

They say no gains were found in the ECu. After tuning PROPERLY a simple CZ, people were finding great gains.... but I guess we are not.

b) How about looking at the attachment that you provided. One is a 3rd gear pull of the REVi, one is a 3rd gear pull of a REVi+REV8+flywheel.

Now, where do I/E gains always appear? They almost always are the highest at the upper rpm's where flow is a problem - afterall, thats how they work to give to power increases. Is there a gain there? No.

Where are the biggest gains of a flywheel? They are around peak torque where the rate of change of rpms will be highest. Where are the most gains seen - right there! Is it out of the relm of possibilities that you can see this kind of gain in 3rd gear? No, its a bit high but not completely unlikely as simple estimations would say 6-8hp...


c) Finally, you want to try to argue that Borla has more "monetary motive" then Racing Beat? Racing Beat is practically given the ecu sourcecode by Mazda in their lap- do they use it? No, instead they spend way over a year developing an intake and exhaust system which yields next to nothing, but will sell alot and make alot of money. Nope, no monetary motive displayed there. They do all these tests and supposedly find next to no gains in the exhaust, but a significant gain in the cat? Do they do anythign about the cat? Nope, that would be only $300 per person instead of $600 per person. They are an aftermarket company looking to make money just like every other company out there.

Tigster

Isnt this thread WAY OFF TOPIC? I thought it was about stickers.

Fanman

What next ? Are you going to show me the SR Motorsports dynos where they got 25 hp from an air intake, exhaust & pullies ? Tell you what. How about you put your money where your mouth is. Let's buy this kit for your car. If it makes 25 hp like the vendor claims I will give you $1,000. If it does not you give me $1,000. Vendor claims aren;t worth the paper they are written on. I trust posters on this board putting up their dynos far more than vendors.

Did Racing Beat do this dyno ? No. POLAK did this dyno. As far as I know he does not work for Racing Beat, and does not profit monetarily from them selling product. There is a big difference if Borla puts out a dyno & says "see I made 8 hp, buy my exhaust." Vs. Polak putting out a dyno showing he got hp gains from the intake, & exhaust. One sells exhausts, the other does not. When I put out my dyno showing that I made 4.5 hp with the hi-flow cat, did I make a dime off of SR Motorsports ? No. I did it because I thought people on this board would like the information. If Borla puts out a dyno showing 8 hp from his exhaust & people buy a 100 units, he just showed about $60,000 in revenue.

I showed 4.5 hp with my hi-flow cat & I had another restriction on my unit (additional resonator). If you have ever seen the RP hi-flow cat unit it's cat is among the smallest I have ever seen (very little restriction) so 6-8 hp would not surprise me. You're just theorizing nonsense. The fact that a few posters have shown these gains (6-8 hp) means a hell of a lot more to me than if RP came out & said a stated hp. They didn't say NO gains were found, they said VERY MODEST gains were found. Another distortion of the truth from you. Recently, Shiv Pathak over at Vishnu tuning ran his XEDE piggyback unit, and what did he find ? MODEST Gains. RB could have come out and said that they found 25-40 hp like Canzoomer & charged everybody the $600, only to found out it wasn't close, but they didn't. Your defending these vendors that are making overstated claims. How about this you buy a Canzoomer unit & put it on your car. Let's go get it tuned. If it makes 40 whp like their claim I will pay the price of your unit. If it doesn't then you give me $600. I'm sure Borla gives some gains, or Canzoomer gives some gains but just not what they are pushing, even if they have dynos. Talking about nobody being able to duplicate results. I have never seen a dyno from anybody that had the SR Motorsports, Canzoomer, or Borla that ever got close to what they state they got. Not saying there weren't any gains, but they are far more modest (closer to Racing Beat's claims) than what the vendors got.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

A company like Borla is a hell of a lot more reputable then SR. So again, show me any proof that Borla's claim were wrong. Oh, thats right - there is nothing!!

(Oh, and I already have a CZ and have already documented its capable of getting 25rwhp... and that was without even pushing the car too hard because I didn't get a better cat yet)

Fanman

Yeah, turn the timing up to dangerous levels, and the engine will last 1000 miles and you might get 25-40 whp. I have never seen a CZ unit by itself get 25 whp like Maurice's claim, let alone 40 whp (with the Random hi-flow cat.). Show us the dyno. Better yet, have somebody independent show us the turned on & off dyno. i've seen dynos from 16 to 25 whp but with other stuff put on (air intakes, midpipes, exhausts, etc.).

Borla, has a good reputation...you mean like K&N ? Yeah they showed a 8.9 hp gain on their 1st generation intake too. Guess what, when people dynoed it they lost hp. Not to mention had all sorts of idling issues. Vendor dynos are worthless. I'll trust dynos from other posters that won;t make money off of us.

Like I said. How about you buy a Borla. We'll take it to a independent dyno place. If it makes 8 hp I will give you $600 (approximate purchase price), if it doesn't, not only are you stuck with the exhaust, but you give me $600. Easy bet. You either gain 8 hp free, or 3 hp for $1200. I'm confident enough in my statements. Are you confident enough in yours. Polak did dynos on the Canzoomer & the REVi & REV8 so far. I think he is in NJ, we can ask him if he would be up for this. You got the ***** to stick to your guns ?

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

ok, looks like your conceeding that there is no data to show Borla's claims were ever wrong

also, my cz data is on the forums... i believe a year ago I showed you could get over 10rwhp conservatively tuned for 89 octane gas. Tuned for 93 octane gave that much more gains. Oh, and my car has not blown up in over a year so far...

Fanman

And I think you're conceding that you have nothing other than a worthless vendor dyno that supports any of your claims. SR Motorsports (who has produced several of the fastest RX7's around by the way), Borla, K&N, etc. all know one thing from marketing 101. Better to overstate gains, and sell vs. understate claims & not sell. They would rather put 8 hp gain & deep sound for $600 vs. 3 hp gain & deep sound, fully knowing that 95% of the people will never dyno their product, but like you are foolish enough to believe their dynos.

So, where are your dynos ? Where's your 93 octane dyno ? You keep on claiming BS from everybody else. So, you got 10 hp from a tune, so you're assuming you must be able to get 25 on 93 then. otherwise show it. Like you asked of me. Prove it. Put your money where your mouth is. I don't doubt with tuning 10 hp is possible, let's see 25 (without other parts), or even better 40 (with a hi-flow cat). If I'm wrong, I'll pay for it. We will get it independently dynoed. Hell, we'll invite RX Tuner to do a follow up from their initial Canzoomer article. If you're wrong then I get the money. Independently dynoed.

Looks like you are pussing out. Outside of Borla's own dyno, do you have anybody else backing up your claim ? By your logic we believe K&N when they "guarantee" 10 hp. You're so quick to point out RB's faults, but when other vendors who have done nothing get taken to the mat for making hyperbolic claims you believe them. You're excuses are starting to fall flat. I don't even care about Canzoomer. Let's do the parts that you were hammering RB on. How about you get a cat back exhaust, or a REVi, or a any hi-flow cat. midpipe. If it dynos close to RB you give me $500. if it dynos closer to other vendors claims (8 hp for cat back, or more than 8 hp for a midpipe, etc.) then I give you $500. Simple enough for you ?

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

Why in the world would I want to bet that RB's exhaust would produce what Borla's would? That makes completely no sense.

Get a new arguement then the "my vendor has more believeable numbers then your vendor" routine and get back to me.

Fanman

No, $600 on it that says Borla doesn't produce 8 hp. You get the exhaust. If it puts out 8 hp I give you $600 (approximate cost of the exhaust)(Free Borla). If it doesn't then you have the exhaust & also give me $600 ($1200 total).

If you were so down on RB's claim, get ANY midpipe if it produces more than 8-9 hp. I'll give you the money you paid. If it is around 8-9 hp then RB is right, and you give me the money it cost you.

A double or nothing proposition. Simple. Sounds like you're starting to punk out and make excuses. Get a Borla, since you like to point to them. I have enough confidence in my statements, seems like you are starting to make excuses. You were the one harping on Racing Beat, and their information. They had no exhaust (0 resistance) & got 4 hp, so unless Borla has a vacuum action I doubt the 8 hp.

Stop backpeddling. If you think Borla is right & RB is wrong then let's do this. It's easy to be an Internet tough guy, but it's tough to stand by your claims.

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

before ya'll argue about me somemore here's my dyno for bonestock vs. bonestock+REVI.

Becarefull about saying 1hp, its important to read the whole dyno i made 10hp at 6750... Area under the curve is a whole hell of a lot more important then the peek number. Especially because a combination wheelspeed and im my opinion airflow starvation on a dyno at that high RPM/speed can lead to some pretty inconsistent numbers, hence why it gets so spiky up top.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

show me where you get a random 10hp blip at 6750 rpms in any other dyno

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

If I wanted an exhaust I would have gotten one by now. I prefer not to sound like a ricer with this car. I had a Borla on my previous car and it made the hp they caimed (which was also 4-5hp more then any other exhausts did). After my experience with Borla, I would purchase another one in a heartbeat.

I have an emissions test to pass every year. I am not puttting a midpipe on my car for that reason as well as I wish to not have my exhaust smell like crap constantly.

I am also not putting up with the internet tough guy routine. Everyone knows I could go ahead with your big "bets", but when it comes time to put up the money I'd here nothing from the tough guy behind the computer on the other side of the country. I will simply ask again, you said "everyone knows" that "everyone only gets 3hp from an exhaust" - so show me how everyone got this knowledge because as I think i have proven now there is NO dyno that ever showed this.

Fanman

Sounds like your back peddling to me. You say you don't want to sound like a ricer, but then how much you love Borla & you would purchase another one in a heartbeat. Well, here's you're chance. If you truly believe that it adds that much hp GET THE BORLA & let's do the test. If you want to pass emissions, get the RP SUPERCAT and let's test. You're reasons are getting tiring. You are pussing out. Call it for what it is.

WTF, does "unreplicated blip. or "random blip" menn. The guy made it on several of his passes. That means consistent hp gain. About as scientific as you can. He ran the car. Never removed it off the dyno. Put the part on & ran it on the same dyno within a short period of time. Yet, you pull some nonsensical vendor dyno out when we have no idea if he did the dyno 6 months afterwards, in what condition. Yet, Polak's is "dyno variation." & Borla's must be true (and no dyno variation). You're argument's are paperthin. Polak had nothing to gain by posting thes dynos. He won't make a penny off of it. Borla did. Show a dyno (outside of the vendor's) where the Borla unit made that kind of hp. Or better yet, buy one yourself, and show us.

Tell you what, you want to talk trash, but not back it up. Your supposed to be a successful mechanical engineer let's do this test. It's only $600. If Polak would be up for this. I will send him a $600 money order. You put $600 on the table. We do the test. If the Borla makes 8 hp, you can have the $600 (free Borla for you). If it doesn't I get $600 (Your Borla just cost you $1200). He is in NJ. If you drive from PA. Hell, I'm so confident I will pay for the dyno time ! Hell, I'm so confident in this, I'll pay for a full tank of gas for you. The only thing everyone knows now is that you are starting to make excuses. I've given you the who, what, where, how. It doesn't get any easier than this. Stop the excuses, or stop the BS posts.

rotarygod

I think this thread has gone far enough.