NRS Ceramic Apex Seals (1-Piece, OEM Height)
07-11-2010, 08:45 AM
#31
WAH WAH WAH
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^ Interesting now i know why turblow requested that type of picture some posts back. I think ill be going with the nrs on my eventual rebuild or extra engine.
07-31-2010, 11:41 AM
#34
i did not try to imply any opinion of my own towards the seals, just saying.
that said, IMO they still are a waste for 99%+ of the types of builds/rebuilds i have seen here. but take it for a grain of salt since there's no reason for me to have a respected voice on the matter
that said, IMO they still are a waste for 99%+ of the types of builds/rebuilds i have seen here. but take it for a grain of salt since there's no reason for me to have a respected voice on the matter
Oh, God, words falil me over this post
Last edited by zenrx8; 07-31-2010 at 11:45 AM.
07-31-2010, 12:33 PM
#35
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having someone hanging off my nuts is new for me.. but whatever, i wont stop ya zen(give em a scratch while you're down there)
point still remains that ppl arent loosing motors to any issues that a seal can resolve. its tuning, overheating, and various other things to fill in the rest. spending your money on seals is a waste when its not providing any longevity cause other issues are killing us LONG before seals are.
*pause and wait for the "my seals will handle detonation" crew to jump in*
wasting money on seals for that reason^^ is akin to putting a bandaid over a cut on a hemophiliac, your not fixing the problem. when i see someone more qualified than you or I discredit this line of thought, i will bow humbly and shut up. but dont bother pointing, referring to, or linking to any information regarding seals that comes from high level motorsports research and experince - since that is not a comparison to what 99% of forum members have going on. And so called "experts" who have done nothing more than jump on the bandwagon over the years can suck it as well. Bring someone in who is credible, has a history of interaction with professionals on a technical level, and who has no bone in the fight
you wanna play with fancy seals and have it justified? fork up for a MoTec and a world class tuner, a legitimate race prepped motor, then your seals are justified. (which btw puts you out of the 99% of us that this applies to per my comments)
point still remains that ppl arent loosing motors to any issues that a seal can resolve. its tuning, overheating, and various other things to fill in the rest. spending your money on seals is a waste when its not providing any longevity cause other issues are killing us LONG before seals are.
*pause and wait for the "my seals will handle detonation" crew to jump in*
wasting money on seals for that reason^^ is akin to putting a bandaid over a cut on a hemophiliac, your not fixing the problem. when i see someone more qualified than you or I discredit this line of thought, i will bow humbly and shut up. but dont bother pointing, referring to, or linking to any information regarding seals that comes from high level motorsports research and experince - since that is not a comparison to what 99% of forum members have going on. And so called "experts" who have done nothing more than jump on the bandwagon over the years can suck it as well. Bring someone in who is credible, has a history of interaction with professionals on a technical level, and who has no bone in the fight
you wanna play with fancy seals and have it justified? fork up for a MoTec and a world class tuner, a legitimate race prepped motor, then your seals are justified. (which btw puts you out of the 99% of us that this applies to per my comments)
Last edited by paulmasoner; 07-31-2010 at 12:47 PM.
07-31-2010, 01:07 PM
#36
Ceramic seals do nothing against detonation - tuning mistakes will yield the same outcome or worse.
Taller seals have a higher inertial component, so they will seal "better" at higher RPMs (precisely when the seals aren't really doing anything, anyway).
They do make softer boost, though.
Taller seals have a higher inertial component, so they will seal "better" at higher RPMs (precisely when the seals aren't really doing anything, anyway).
They do make softer boost, though.
07-31-2010, 01:16 PM
#37
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Ceramic seals do nothing against detonation - tuning mistakes will yield the same outcome or worse.
Taller seals have a higher inertial component, so they will seal "better" at higher RPMs (precisely when the seals aren't really doing anything, anyway).
They do make softer boost, though.
Taller seals have a higher inertial component, so they will seal "better" at higher RPMs (precisely when the seals aren't really doing anything, anyway).
They do make softer boost, though.
07-31-2010, 01:16 PM
#38
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Ceramic seals do nothing against detonation - tuning mistakes will yield the same outcome or worse.
Taller seals have a higher inertial component, so they will seal "better" at higher RPMs (precisely when the seals aren't really doing anything, anyway).
They do make softer boost, though.
Taller seals have a higher inertial component, so they will seal "better" at higher RPMs (precisely when the seals aren't really doing anything, anyway).
They do make softer boost, though.
^^ thats my point.
and that 99% of the folks around here aren't having/wont ever have a motor last through other issues long enough to justify them in terms of thinking of longevity
07-31-2010, 03:55 PM
#40
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The hypothesis that these seals may stand a better chance of saving a motor (notice i said "may", not "will") when detonation occurs (notice i said "when", not "if") is one of the primary motivations for spending the extra cash on them (another motivation would be that they're easier on the rotor housings). Keep in mind though, paulmasoner/MM are right, there's NO PROOF that they can in fact withstand detonation (which NONE have actually been proven to do) any better than stock or other aftermarket "super" seals, so to invest in them is a total risk if not a total waste, BUT, that decision is obviously left at the discretion of the owner and their budget. Period.
btw - I like this "99%" rule concept, maybe it'd make for a good sub-forum?
btw - I like this "99%" rule concept, maybe it'd make for a good sub-forum?
07-31-2010, 04:01 PM
#41
I won't hog space here (I'm a Iannetti man although I'm sure NRS makes great products). An advantage of ceramics that people may not be aware of is related to the amount of spring pressure that can be used, keeping the seals contacting the housings at elevated rpms and boost levels. It's great for making consistent power in NA but also advantageous for the FI people to reduce detonation through eliminating hot ignited gases migrating to the upcoming compressing chamber.
They are EXPENSIVE for the best quality stuff and useless if you don't know what you're doing. Definitely not for everyone but clearly for those that want top performance and can afford. As I think MM was suggesting; if your tuning is poop, forget about it.
Paul.
They are EXPENSIVE for the best quality stuff and useless if you don't know what you're doing. Definitely not for everyone but clearly for those that want top performance and can afford. As I think MM was suggesting; if your tuning is poop, forget about it.
Paul.
07-31-2010, 04:02 PM
#42
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The hypothesis that these seals may stand a better chance of saving a motor (notice i said "may", not "will") when detonation occurs (notice i said "when", not "if") is one of the primary motivations for spending the extra cash on them (another motivation would be that they're easier on the rotor housings). Keep in mind though, paulmasoner/MM are right, there's NO PROOF that they can in fact withstand detonation (which NONE have actually been proven to do) any better than stock or other aftermarket "super" seals, so to invest in them is a total risk if not a total waste, BUT, that decision is obviously left at the discretion of the owner and their budget. Period.
btw - I like this "99%" rule concept, maybe it'd make for a good sub-forum?
btw - I like this "99%" rule concept, maybe it'd make for a good sub-forum?
lol 99% forum, itd be easier to have a 1% forum, though most people would still never treat it as such as far as any topics involved. the general mentality seems to be, if its right for a race motor, its gotta be good money spent for my daily driver, or even my weekend hobby track car. and this is often not the case
Last edited by paulmasoner; 07-31-2010 at 04:05 PM.
07-31-2010, 04:15 PM
#43
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i have to ask though, typical use(in our context) of ceramics results in slightly less vaccum at idle which leads one to believe spring pressure isnt there, at least not in the use i've seen in this type of community.
and at high rpm, arent the seals already under pretty significant centripital force - how much added spring pressure can you really implement in an effective manner?
I realize these arent questions that have simple easy answers you can just spit out. just thinking out loud. and again i'm only thinking of the use we see of seals among these types of communities, ie the 99% of ppl thing
and at high rpm, arent the seals already under pretty significant centripital force - how much added spring pressure can you really implement in an effective manner?
I realize these arent questions that have simple easy answers you can just spit out. just thinking out loud. and again i'm only thinking of the use we see of seals among these types of communities, ie the 99% of ppl thing
08-01-2010, 02:32 AM
#44
i have to ask though, typical use(in our context) of ceramics results in slightly less vaccum at idle which leads one to believe spring pressure isnt there, at least not in the use i've seen in this type of community.
and at high rpm, arent the seals already under pretty significant centripital force - how much added spring pressure can you really implement in an effective manner?
I realize these arent questions that have simple easy answers you can just spit out. just thinking out loud. and again i'm only thinking of the use we see of seals among these types of communities, ie the 99% of ppl thing
and at high rpm, arent the seals already under pretty significant centripital force - how much added spring pressure can you really implement in an effective manner?
I realize these arent questions that have simple easy answers you can just spit out. just thinking out loud. and again i'm only thinking of the use we see of seals among these types of communities, ie the 99% of ppl thing
08-01-2010, 11:04 AM
#45
Since i really dont know the techs of all this, i can only offer to repeat what I have been told by Rick E at Mazmart.
Rick said " The oem seals are good enough for any type of dd rx8. If you want ceramics then the rest of the build needs to be included."
Now of course he does not reveal the details of the "rest of the build" but i am told there is much more to it. I trust Rick and Paul, so I leave it at that.
Just my 2 cent experience
Rick said " The oem seals are good enough for any type of dd rx8. If you want ceramics then the rest of the build needs to be included."
Now of course he does not reveal the details of the "rest of the build" but i am told there is much more to it. I trust Rick and Paul, so I leave it at that.
Just my 2 cent experience
08-01-2010, 11:42 AM
#47
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Since i really dont know the techs of all this, i can only offer to repeat what I have been told by Rick E at Mazmart.
Rick said " The oem seals are good enough for any type of dd rx8. If you want ceramics then the rest of the build needs to be included."
Now of course he does not reveal the details of the "rest of the build" but i am told there is much more to it. I trust Rick and Paul, so I leave it at that.
Just my 2 cent experience
Rick said " The oem seals are good enough for any type of dd rx8. If you want ceramics then the rest of the build needs to be included."
Now of course he does not reveal the details of the "rest of the build" but i am told there is much more to it. I trust Rick and Paul, so I leave it at that.
Just my 2 cent experience
tell me how many ppl here you know who compete seriously in motorsports, who are willing to make the necessary investments, and who couldnt spend the few hundred dollars better addressing other issues?
i still stand that 99% of the people you find among our circles have no justified cause
i absoluely do not discredit ceramics, only a fool would. but my opinion is that they have no place in the motors of 99% of "us". Us being the folks that comprise the internet and "scene" communities. Those who can truly benefit and justify their use are busy racing professionally with 6+ figure cars
Last edited by paulmasoner; 08-01-2010 at 11:49 AM.
08-01-2010, 02:22 PM
#49
Since i really dont know the techs of all this, i can only offer to repeat what I have been told by Rick E at Mazmart.
Rick said " The oem seals are good enough for any type of dd rx8. If you want ceramics then the rest of the build needs to be included."
Now of course he does not reveal the details of the "rest of the build" but i am told there is much more to it. I trust Rick and Paul, so I leave it at that.
Just my 2 cent experience
Rick said " The oem seals are good enough for any type of dd rx8. If you want ceramics then the rest of the build needs to be included."
Now of course he does not reveal the details of the "rest of the build" but i am told there is much more to it. I trust Rick and Paul, so I leave it at that.
Just my 2 cent experience
08-01-2010, 02:32 PM
#50
having someone hanging off my nuts is new for me.. but whatever, i wont stop ya zen(give em a scratch while you're down there)
point still remains that ppl arent loosing motors to any issues that a seal can resolve. its tuning, overheating, and various other things to fill in the rest. spending your money on seals is a waste when its not providing any longevity cause other issues are killing us LONG before seals are.
*pause and wait for the "my seals will handle detonation" crew to jump in*
wasting money on seals for that reason^^ is akin to putting a bandaid over a cut on a hemophiliac, your not fixing the problem. when i see someone more qualified than you or I discredit this line of thought, i will bow humbly and shut up. but dont bother pointing, referring to, or linking to any information regarding seals that comes from high level motorsports research and experince - since that is not a comparison to what 99% of forum members have going on. And so called "experts" who have done nothing more than jump on the bandwagon over the years can suck it as well. Bring someone in who is credible, has a history of interaction with professionals on a technical level, and who has no bone in the fight
you wanna play with fancy seals and have it justified? fork up for a MoTec and a world class tuner, a legitimate race prepped motor, then your seals are justified. (which btw puts you out of the 99% of us that this applies to per my comments)
point still remains that ppl arent loosing motors to any issues that a seal can resolve. its tuning, overheating, and various other things to fill in the rest. spending your money on seals is a waste when its not providing any longevity cause other issues are killing us LONG before seals are.
*pause and wait for the "my seals will handle detonation" crew to jump in*
wasting money on seals for that reason^^ is akin to putting a bandaid over a cut on a hemophiliac, your not fixing the problem. when i see someone more qualified than you or I discredit this line of thought, i will bow humbly and shut up. but dont bother pointing, referring to, or linking to any information regarding seals that comes from high level motorsports research and experince - since that is not a comparison to what 99% of forum members have going on. And so called "experts" who have done nothing more than jump on the bandwagon over the years can suck it as well. Bring someone in who is credible, has a history of interaction with professionals on a technical level, and who has no bone in the fight
you wanna play with fancy seals and have it justified? fork up for a MoTec and a world class tuner, a legitimate race prepped motor, then your seals are justified. (which btw puts you out of the 99% of us that this applies to per my comments)