And why the hell would you want to do that if you can't re-enable it yourself?! That's an anti-theft system! Do YOU want to make it easier for thieves to steal your car? I know I don't.

Please. Stop with the strawman debate. I've never raved about JDM tuners and their products. Quite the opposite. I always say... "**** if they JDM tuners can do it... why the hell aren't US tuners doing it yet?!"

The "godlike" Japanese tuners don't have a freaking handheld flash tuner for ANY of their cars. So I wouldn't expect one any time soon. The HKS FCon VPro is a good example of the general japanese business philosophy... it's all powerful, but you can't use it. Only certified tuning shops/dealers. The Japanese generally have this attitude throughout society... they think people are too stupid to do anything beyond the basics for themselves, so everything is done for you (for a fee of course). This isn't the country of DIY.

Again you are pulling a strawman. I never said that $300 was too much for this. Check my posts. I have said the exact OPPOSITE.

You should really research first you know. SCT's flash tuner doesn't allow as much control for end users. That is only for tuning shops/dealers which get a special edition version that allows more control.

Handheld flash tuner
http://www.sctflash.com/product_xc2.php

For dealers
http://www.sctflash.com/product_adv.php

For pro racers
http://www.sctflash.com/product_racer.php

Notice... the handheld unit for end users is not fully tunable. It stores 3 pre-programmed flashes that you can upload yourself.


Sniper's flash tuner
http://www.snipertuning.com/new/view...ctronic+Tuning

End user tuning
http://www.snipertuning.com/new/product.phtml?p=21

Sniper may offer full tuning capabilities, but they do also offer a more simple (less dangerous) product for the less experienced. they of course also have the plain old pre-programmed unit too.


Cobb's flash tuner
http://cobbtuning.com/sti/accessport.html

end user tuning
http://cobbtuning.com/sti/ap-streettuner.html

Cobb's handheld flash tuner is like the others... pre-programmed... but offers to hold 10 maps instead of just 2 or 3. Their tuning software is middle of the road... offers more than sniper's simple version, but offers less options (less control) than the dealer versions. Maybe comparable to emanage in that respect.


Revo technik
http://www.revotechnik.com/products/...eSoftware.aspx

While is does look like you have to take your car in to a dealer to get your flash setup, you do also get a switchable handheld flash tuner. Depending on model, you can so some end user adjustment to the tune as well. They even offer a flash tune trial (reverts to normal automatically after trial period ends)... this is the same as what RB is offering, but is being used as a TRIAL.


Open source... EcuFlash (if you're into that kind of thing)
http://www.openecu.org/index.php?title=EcuFlash


EcuTek flash tuner
http://www.ecutek.com/products/deltadash/

end user tuning
http://www.ecutek.com/products/usertune/

Pro ecu tuning tools
http://www.ecutek.com/products/deltaecu/

Same thing here. pre-programmed flash tuner, simplified end user tuning and pro tuning tools.

That's your and my opinion as people who can do it. There's a whole lot of **** I can do on a PC... be it *nix or wintel. Just because it's easy for me doesn't mean it is for the average person... it has been both my hobby and my profession for quite sometime, obviously it isn't a big deal for me.

RB is a business first. If I can't put up with a little inconvenience that is THEIR problem. I won't buy their product. I know that there are people who will... there are plenty of RB fanboys who will never ask more of RB and simply buy whatever they put out. This doesn't mean it is low quality or badly engineered, this means that they could still do better... offer more, but for whatever reason is not doing so. There will also be plenty of people who feel the same as I do and won't buy it.


No, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. It is a product/service. Not a solution. A solution solves a problem. The problem has been tuning the RX-8's ECU, particularly for FI applications... not just by end users, but also by companies/shops wanting to release "kits". NA tuning as an end has only had a small following... particularly once it became clear that there isn't a lot left in the current engine in NA form. As an intermediate stepping stone until someone is ready to go to FI... that's a different story. Either way this doesn't solve the problem. It is just a product for those that want to keep their car NA.

I can imagine you'll say that is most people. Maybe. Maybe not. If a "OEM factory" reliable FI solution came out at a reasonable price... do you think that would possibly change? On a similar note... if RB was offering a pre-programmed handheld flash tuner instead of a mail order service, do you think that everyone who is singing their praises right now would be complaining instead... "Oh, this is too difficult too use. I don't need all this. I want to disable my car for 3-4 days and send my ECU to RB and have them do all the work instead." You know that if a handheld flasher was being released instead EVERYONE would be happy and raving about it (except people who would still insist on a standalone)... unless there weren't any end user tuning or pro tuning options... but that is getting away from the core of the argument.

Wah wah wah. You're whining because I find their product less than satisfactory (which has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with business/marketing). Again you pull a strawman argument. Who the hell didn't give them credit or said others give them too much credit? Not me. I've said (repeatedly) their stuff is well-engineered.

From when RB had FIRST mentioned getting setup for ECU testing and eventually offer a type of flash "service", I directly told them that a handlheld flasher "black box" solution would be best accepted by the community. Pre-programmed for end users and tunable for dealers... like I mentioned above for the other ECU flash products on the market. Obviously they have their own plans. As I mentioned in another post... ECU flashing isn't their business. Rotary tuning first, and then products for other Mazda vehicles. If SCT or another company had already released a flash tuner for the RX-8... I bet RB would have snagged one and built their tune on that instead. But for RB to go and invest in having a flasher developed and tuning software written... that's a lot of investment in something that isn't their core competency... that isn't their job. So they aren't interested in doing it. I can understand that. And they know that AT LEAST the fanboys will ship their ECU for this flash... so they are offering this. Fine. That is also their business decision. However, all this kissing their *** while not acknowledging that this product is less than complete or all that is could be just pisses me off.

Got some seed money for me? no? Then wha cha talkin' 'bout Willis? I'm not a 50-something or 60-something old man that has his own company that is profitable. Nor am I a multi-millionaire. I'm not an electrical engineer either. If I had the resources already, I'd be on this (and all new Mazdas) like white on rice.

 

That's something a politician would say.

There is nothing wrong with asking more of people. It's the lack of this that results in America today. Stop making excuses for people and ask them to own up.

 

Exactly.

Maybe RB plans on releasing their own FI kit.... as Zoom44 mentioned. It is possible, but not probable. I've seen various products on their site, but no FI kits. Never heard of one being mentioned before by miata people or others. Could be wrong... might have missed it... but probably not.

So. This means using RB's flashing for OTHER companies' FI kits. How is that going to work? Is RB going to "release" or "license" their stuff for this company to build their tune for the kit? Is RB going to go to each company and do the tuning work? Is each company going to send their kits to RB for tuning?

 

ya know i am seriously considering banning the next person who uses "fanboy" like this in this thread. im freaking sick of it. the people who like this idea and are willign to go this route are called "rb fanboys" . the people who "defend" the product being maligned her are called "fanboys". you are argueing awfully hard against this so are ytou an "rb hater" or whatever? you are usign it to malign the person as a personal attack which is against forum rules first of all. you Japan are seemingly vehemetly opposed to what they have here as if its some personal affront to you. you keep sayinjg " i didnt say" this or that but you did. you ar ebeing down right abusive and then refuse to aknowledge it. Racing Beat doesnt need "us" to defend them. but you(not just Japan8) seem bent on trashing them for being th efirst to market in the states with this ability.

why dotn one of you call them and ask "why didnt you go the hand held flash thingy route" ? instead of just bashing it. You are right this is not their core business. They had to find someone who could help them develop the ability to flash for the consumer. Nobody with a hand held unit could do it! (none of them can yet either)So they went the way they could get. someone accused them of not doign for the community. They have been working on this for 3 years!! Just because people in the community asked for it. anyone else done that?

NO. ho wmuch time have i spent cajoling /imploring/ exploring/ SCT? those conversations with one of the head guys lasted 8 months!! NOTHING. then i spent 6 more months pushing their head tuner when the sales guy dropped th ball and left. guess what we have? NOTHING

what about sniper? know what they are doing?NOTHING. they say they can flash but are too busy doing other projects to build int he screens whatever for the rx-8 into their device / software. so wha tdo we have from them? NOTHING

Cobb; cobb is just getting started. we have confirmation from them that sometime in the fall they will kno wwhen they might have it for sale. now? NOTHING.

Ecutek? nothing Revo? nothing how is the cracking thread going for an open source method?

Who else ? nobody. (well i think Hymee might be close but you'd have to ask him your selves) the only company to the market with a viable option is Racing Beat. why? because they ARE dedicated to the rotary community. Is this the best possible solution? No id love an SCT style solution BUT this is the ONLY solution for flashing the PCM. and its cheap. under $300. USe public transportation if you need to. have afreind drive you. or simply wait awhile longer until something else comes along. dont bash them for bring to us what they could. Will it be the best for everyone? no- they will still think about things like cat life that many may not care about. fine then wait for something else.

in the mean time many people will be ejoying th enew power and higher redline of their new PCM tune.

 

on the FI front. there is nothign stopping any comapny from partnering up with RB for their FI kit. other companies have already used the engine dyno at RB to test their FI kits( not just mazda). There is no reason they couldnt do that some more to develop the tune needed for that particular kit(S). Also i belive one person mentioned in this thread that they might do custom tunes. That might cost more, obviously, but an individual could put their own FI together and get a fuel and timign flash from RB for it based on results they were looking for. Remember those FI'd MNAO studies (liek the white one) had rb tunes in them.

Personally- if i could get an Axial FLow right now id ask them to do a tune for me without any qualms what so ever. after all they're the one that put the time and effort into actually getting this done. instead of just talking about it.

 

nice, did you point your toes on exit????

japan 8... it is just another option.... rb never has claimed t have the total solution.....

it will help the majority... not me, but most...

beers

 

eh - yours was more concise- its the first option for this we have. its not the be all and end all bu tcertainly doesnt deserve thi sconsiderable bashing. be happy that the market is finally coming around. we have more options every day- this is a time for excitement and you all are bringing me down

 

stop being a poopy pants... reval in the start of new tomorrow...

blah blah blah.... it cant happen fast enough....

but it is getting better..

beers

 

japan 8.

those links are great. but do nothing in the usa... in the future maybe, but now nothing..

beers

 

Wow, I've been watching this thread .... Out of nowher Its going into a RB VS Anti-RB debate.

First of all, let me say this, theres alot, I mean ALOT of "Send your ECU for a reflash" kind of thing going on for YEARS. Yes, YEARS ! Not just 8, lots and LOTs of other cars got that. Whats wrong with that?

If you cant live without your car for a few days, just smile and look somewhere else. OR I can say :

JUST DONT FUXKING BUY THE SERVICE !!!!

and as zoom44 pointed out, why would people turned into a "RB fanboy" when they said "its ok to let RB to flash" ? Why ?

I dont have lots of RB products in my 8, only 1 actually, is the RB Ram air duct.

Am I happy with it? Yes I am.
Issues? None so far, its in my 8 for like 8-9 months I think?

Do they make quality product? I think so, I havent try anything else *yet*, but if u would let me pick for the next upgrade, I will give their flywheel a shot.

Are they the best company for Rotary ? Maybe, I cant say for sure.

and at least I know that they didnt lie about most of the stuff that they posted (Exhaust, for example proved that Companies like Borla is just full of ****)

I want to learn how to tune my car. Of course it would be nice to have a flasher around so I can do whatever. but do you guys have any idea how to make one thats flawless?(or close enough) They can partner with others of course but that will also takes time and money. and trust me its NOT going to be cheap.(if it ever comes out) why? Cuz 8's market is really small (compare to Civics at least)

I have a 4 people family including myself. 3 of us were licensed and we have our own cars and yes 8 is my daily and only car to drive around. Life will suck so bad without my 8 , even just 3 days. But hey. 300 is a freaking steal.

Anyway, for those who dont like RB's flash, just shut up and thats it. This post is going off topic.

 

nycgps- Since when has it been a pro-RB vs anti-RB debate? More like pro-RB vs "RB is fine, but what's up with this product?!" debate. I guess there's something wrong with pointing out the flaws or weak points of a product/service being offered. And I thought that most of you were in America... the land of free speech.

Has it fallen a bit in the "bitching" category? By now... yeah probably. It may not have gone this route if the first responses to "why does it have to be a mail-in flash service?" weren't "shut up and be happy RB is doing something!".

Guess what... Ford even has one as part of their performance packages... http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=9398

Zoom44... I'm surpised. I can suspect what your intitial answer will be to what I intend to ask, so I lay it down like this. Quote where I said "RG is a RB fanboy" or " XYZ member is a fanboy". I do admit to using it... in only 2 or so posts out of many. Has the tone of my post gotten stronger... yeah probably. But I was never trying to use ad hominem arguments. I used "fanboy" not against the people defending this product. I used it in reference to people who exclusively like to use RB products and as such would buy the flash because it's from RB... likely even if a handheld unit from another company was going to be available a month or two later. In this, "debate" people got on a "defend RB" box and just told the other side they are wrong and/or shut up. When has it been wrong to say that yeah it's nice that someone in the US has finally gotten a flash for the RX-8, but why mail in service? Aren't there liability risks with that (considering RB isn't a small time tuner, this is stuff I'd think they'd consider)? Wasn't it possible to partner up with a company that already has the handheld flash technology, just not the RX-8 ECU specifics? This is questioning their business strategy, not their engineering ability. Yes I know that RB are the only ones with these answers. Maybe they'd tell me if I asked, maybe not. Was there something wrong with debating it and the pros/cons of this product in light of what the community needs/wants?

"vehemetly opposed"? I believe I said it in the Axial Flow thread. The Interceptor-X is a pretty capable piece of hardware. Where there was only the blue emanage, it offered a better tuning solution for those that wanted to turbo their RX-8 and even proved useful with NA applications. It's not without it's issues though (what isn't?). The thing is... how many hours and how much money did Scott put into bring that product to the market? Quite a bit I bet. But why did he invest in a "interceptor" standalone/piggyback when modern ECU's are pretty powerful, and increasingly complex and all-controlling? Yes... I am asking why didn't he work on flash technology instead. Maybe it was costs. maybe it was familiarity. Only he knows. But everytime something other than handheld flash tuners comes to the market, that is one less opportunity for it happen. One more company that invested time and money in another direction... and so won't be going the handheld flash tuner route. And if it takes long enough... well... everyone's got X product on their NA or FI car... so who needs the handheld flash tuners now (in other words... time to market).

You know that I know you'd been following up on SCT and Sniper.... and the results. Revo only does VAG and Porsche cars. EcuTek... well I've read about some issues the "community" has had with them in the past (I think they had a lack of end user tuning ability) and also with them and EcuFlash.

You also know that I have never bashed RB's products. Years ago there was the debate that Jim Langer jumped in on, but that wasn't about their product... it was about their marketing/business practices (copy used on their website). There have been several times where I have defended RB's products/engineering. I'd buy their suspension package simply because the RX-8 is already a low car, and their springs offer the least drop. I'd also never worry about their springs sagging or any other issues. I'd consider their cat-back. yeah it should have been at least the same weight as stock, but in combo with a high-flow cat without resonator... it'll probably be one of the quietest setups.

Back to some of your comments...

Don't I wish! God willing, I'll be permanently back in the US in September... in Central Florida. Swoope can confirm this... Public transportation? What's that? A friend drive me? Most of them don't live in Central Florida anymore and even if they did, the area is so spread out that it wouldn't be feasible (living on the opposite ends of town). Wait longer for something else to come along... how long? Will something really come along? You mentioned what happened with SCT and Sniper...

Hymee has hinted that he's got something in the works. But I am under the impression that this isn't his full-time business and there are other projects and such that can take priority. But I am hoping. His twin-screw S/C looks great too.

Richard is on the brink of being ready with the Axial-Flow, as is Pettit with their twin-screw... if it wasn't for the ECU tuning issue. Pettit in particular has been waiting quite awhile on this one.

Open source method? It progresses... but slowly. But it's open source... no business, no profits, no funding. If there was... who knows.

As I have said many times... $300 for a soild 15-20hp is great (better than the $500-1000 people spend on cat-backs). Finally being able to flash the ECU is great. Unfortunately not all of us can garage their car to send in their ECU and at this time (unless someone works out some kind of a deal with RB) it doesn't solve the tuning problem for FI.

As far as another company working with RB on the flash tune for this kit... that is a possiblity... but it also complicates things from a business/logistics point of view. Who knows what might happen though...

Swoope. Surprising after some of the noob flaming recently, but... the way you put it... I suppose you could say it peacefully sums it up.

huh? All of those links were for stuff in the US. Revo is probably German (never checked), but they offer their products in the US.

 

this coming from the guy who says the rx8 has a shift-light in the dash, when the beeeeeeeeep sounds?

:D

 

back on topic please! some of the best news since the rx-8 came out and its turning into a cat fight? RB its giving you the car that mazda was supouse to give you( or almost) for $300 and you are complaning?


so the flash tunes the ecu to remain at a specific a/f mixture so if you do your ports later you will get more hp without reflashing?

 

Sorry, its not going to cost you $300. UPS next day air with early AM arrival from the east coast is $75 each way.

So, if everything goes according to plan, thats $300 + $75 shipping + 3x$30 car rental (optional) + $75 return shipping. Total cost is $450 - $540.


I'd rather pay $600 for a flash + programmer then $500 for a flash and perhaps have to go through the entire shipping process again when my retarded dealer decides to reflash my car again and overwrite RB's flash. I think most people with a grain of common sense would like the same thing.

Call it whining, bitching, moaning, or whatever else you would like - the smart thing to do would be to encourage Racing Beat to make plans for either a programmer or at the very LEAST make the flash available through their local distributors.

 

Nah.. don't give swoope the credit... i said it first! page 14

 

Ah... true dat. You are right...

 

I can tell you how to get the equivalent of 5-10hp gains for free while saving you money..... just eat a little less and loose a few pounds or only fill your gas tank half way.

The ONLY reason this is significant news is as validation that pettit's idea of reflashing the ecu for FI might be viable. Now if RB could claim 20+hp on a stock 8 with just the ecu flash that would be news. But really.... why bother with 5hp gains unless you have already added the big gains first.

 

Remember the $200 figure from earlier in this thread?

$200 for RB's time.
what's the ECU weigh? I gave it 3lbs. $80 r/t for FedEx overnight.

$380 +/- for ME (and those who live on the west coast). $480 if they want $300 for their time.

Oh - and I'd have to drive my wife's truck to work for a couple days. Boo-hoo.

Stop pissing in the wheaties of those who CAN do the 'send in the ECU' path to 15-20hp gains. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Your and others' doom-and-gloom because you don't happen to live next door to Racing Beat is getting very old. I'd bet dollars to donuts if RB was in Allentown, PA you'd be jumping for joy at the chance.

:-/

If you don't like it - don't buy it. How many times has that sentence been written in this thread? How many times until people get the idea and stop boo-hooin about something which hasn't yet been decided?

 

Where'd you get the 5hp-gains figure?

 

On a related note to ECU modification, is anyone familiar with this software package? There are more details on this forum that will link you to the Vendor, etc...

http://www.newtiburon.com/forums/sho...1&page=1&pp=40

 

r0tor - Sorry but I dont have to use UPS and if I use USPS its would only cost me 40 bucks to ship to RB(base on 10 lbs) plus another 10 bucks or whatever for insurance, and I believe the return shipping is included in the flashing fee.

Its just funny to see that no other car forum whine about "ship the ECU for reflash". (at least I cant find any)

If you really cant go anywhere without your car, I suggest you start looking for Mas Transportation or even better. try to find a path and walk a little more to your closest bus stop/Train station/whatever. I know most of the roads in New York City cuz I used to take lots of Mass Transportation. Thats the reason why when the blackout happened 3 years ago I can find my way home on foot. Manhattan to Queens buddy. took me 3 hours.

japan8 - It does suck that people gotta live without their 8 for a few days. people make flash for Porshe just because they dont have to worry R&D cost, they can charge 5 times the price and people will still buy it(cuz ppl have porshe have money anyway). Our 8 , on the other hand, is a rare car. The market is small. I think the biggest reasons RB didnt let anybody to do the flashing mostly because they want to keep them safe so no one can steal their files and start flashing people's car. Im sure RB put alot of time and effort in R&D, and they want to make sure that they can at least get the money they spent on this project. and its going to suck if some local reseller just sold the program to someone for 10K and they start making copies then flash everyone's car for 10 bucks.

Its not even RB's problem in the first place, Mazda made this Rotary N/A. and the ECU on this car is such an *** to work with. Engine is still new with alot of unknowns of which will show up in the future.

Whatever man. In the end I just want to say.

Again

 

Does anyone know when they are going to post the before and after dyno charts? That is what I want to see in this thread. Not a lot of people trying to prove their own opinion. Lets all get along until the dyno charts are posted.
I would like to see if it adds a few ponys in the lower rpm range as well as upper range to help get up to the major gains quicker. I use my car for a daily driver and sit in stop and go traffic all the time so my needle barely goes above 7,800 rpm (unless I am first at a red light).If the all gains are above 7,800 rpm then I probably will save my money and not purchase this mod unless I start driving on a racetrack.

 

I don't recall ever seeing RB post a dyno for anything before.

 

As already posted in this thread, the gains appear to be in the upper end of the RPM Range.

Here's a question though - if you're in stop-and-go traffic, why do you NEED more power? In fact, it's been suggested this ECU mod will only play under WOT conditions. But geesh, how much power does one need for stop-and-go, anyway? I bet the guy next to you in the Geo Metro, and his 50whp, does just fine.


If this ECU tune can give a solid 10-15whp gain from 7000-9000 I'd buy it. 10-15whp over 2000 rpm range is a decent gain.





...they'd have to teach people how to read a dyno plot; that'd take too much time!

:D

 

5k and up