Track Day Brakes - Operating Temperature Range - Page 4 - RX8Club.com



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Old 09-03-2008, 08:55 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ThecdnRX8 View Post
I guess it depends on the R-comps you are using. I would suggest that you start with something like RA'1s they still sing quite a bit before they break away. You can hear them pretty clearly here and this is my sixth track day on them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4ZuwLnMKJw
Wow, those RA1 sound like street tires. You seem to be punishing them mercilessly there ThecdnRX8 ! Still, they give you decent lap times ~2:35 even if they are crying out for mercy... I remember my RT615s did that howling thing at MT 2 yrs ago and that was one of the reasons for getting the Nittos...nice quiet grip

For comparison, here's that same lap, virtually the same lap time, but me on my 255/40/17 Nitto NT01s. Only in a couple places you can just hear some tire howl. I start cold at 38lbs typically and they heat up from there, bleeding to 43-46 hot.

http://www.motionbox.com/videos/069cdfb61a1fe08f

..interesting the difference in tires ... even r-comps

...and to stay on topic...that was w/GT Sports BTW

Last edited by Spin9k; 09-04-2008 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 09-05-2008, 04:35 AM   #77
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I am not sure that question has been covered.

You notice in the first post that SouthFL listed the range which starts from 50-300F. What do you think how relevant of it going to be in the street?

I have been using Project Mu HC+ on the track (rated 0-800C) and never faded with excellent stopping power, but still want a little bit more. There is the LEVEL 900i but heat range is 100-900C. What do you guys think about that?

I will only have those 900i in the front. I don't think the rear will generate enough heat in the rear.

Tell you my experience, I went on a hard track day for 7-9 laps at a time. Back to pit after a cool down lap. The rotor will be at around 250 degree C front, and pad under 200 degree C. The rear is considerably cooler.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:26 AM   #78
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My experience is also from measuring in the pits, and generally find the rears are only marginally cooler than fronts, similar temps to yours or perhaps a bit cooler. On longer tracks temps (as measured in-pit) tend to be less perhaps due perhapos to the longer cool down time or less braking overall, on shorter ~2km tracks things get hotter both ends. I have front cooling through from the undertray area.

I wouldn't use different temp pads front and rear....maybe different friction levels perhaps. When you say you want a bit more, what are you speaking of? More heat? More grip? Changing the heat range doesn't necessarily get you more grip.

Higher heat range pad are generally for heavier, more powerful cars. Heavier cars generate more heat even if only going your speeds, more powerful and heavier get even hotter.

But for you to generate more heat ...don't you need to be able to go faster?...brake harder? Then a pad with more friction would generate higher heat spikes ... so then a higher heat range would be in order.
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:04 AM   #79
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I am not just after heat range, they are listed as OK for S (semi slick, R spec) tyres. They are from 100-900 C as I said and co-efficient of 0.45~0.60μ. The pad I am using is 0~800℃, have good control and coefficent of 0.38~0.62μ; but most of the time it is at the range of high .4 (.46-.49 on graph when heat up), but the 900i is about 0.55 or so at the range that I THINK the brakes are at.

As the guy who sells me pads... he said it is not good for road because heat range start at 100 degree C. I just want opinion on this...
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:26 AM   #80
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100C pads would tend to have little initial bite or stopping power on the street. Might be a big scary - I've not tried pads like that so just a guess...others must and hope they chime in. I've had only oem or Cobalt pads w/50F cold bite and no issues. Sorry...
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:25 AM   #81
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100C = 212F

See operating range for typical road course pads below. 212F falls well within spec for track use (Comparable to Carbotech),
but, not ideal for street use.

Quote:
Cobalt Friction
XR-3________ 50-1600 deg. (Front)
XR-4________ 50-1500 deg. (Rear)
GT Sport_____ 50-1200 deg. (Front/Rear)

Hawk
HT-14_______ 300-1400 deg.
HT-10_______ 300-1300 deg.
Blue________ 250-1000 deg.
HP Plus______ 100-800 deg.

Porterfield
R4_________ 450+ deg.
R4S________ Ambient-900 deg.

Carbotech
XP12_______ 250-2000 deg.
XP10_______ 200-1650 deg.
XP8________ 200-1350 deg.
AX6 (Formerly Panther Plus)
___________ 150-1250 deg.

Last edited by SouthFL; 09-05-2008 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:00 AM   #82
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Don't go by temperatures measured on the rotors when you get back to the pits. Rotor temps drop dramatically the moment you take your foot off the pedal. If you've ever watched a road race at night such as Sebring or Daytona or Lemans, glowing rotors quit glowing at the apex. If you look at a graph of a brake test the temps are very spikey, but they don't return all the way down to where they started from so rotor temps keep growing after multiple laps until they eventually reach an equilibrium. Rotor temps during hard braking on a high speed road course may, depending on the car and driver, range from well in excess of 1000F (538C). The 1600F of the Cobalts and the Carbotechs in the posted table equates to about 871C.

I've run 3 brands of track pads, Ferodo 3000, Carbotech XP10, and Cobalt XR2 and those pads worked fine on the street on the way to the track. When I first got my track pads I was really nervous about using them on the way to the track, then when I put them on I was like huh, seems fine to me. I don't recommend them for street use because of the expense, the dust, and the rotor wear, but for driving to the track those 3 brands at least are fine.

Most track cars run different coeff of friction and temp range pads between front and rear. With a street car suspension on a road course, there is even more reason to use different compounds front and rear (On the street I would just use the same compound front and rear). At the track with the softer suspension you get more weight transfer to the front and off the rear. This is magnified with sticky tires. The lower bite in the rear keeps the ABS from setting off prematurely due to rear wheel lockup and killing off the braking at the front. On cars without ABS it keeps the rear end from locking up prematurely and coming around on you during heavy braking and makes trail braking more efficient. Check with the manufacturers. Both Cobalt and Carbotech recommend using a less agressive compound in the rear.

Last edited by justjim; 09-05-2008 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:49 PM   #83
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well you may actually want to experiment rather than rely on a book/word of mouth

I drove an RX-8 with a much more aggressive rear pad and rather than set the rear ABS off early it made the car rotate under trail braking - big time ...

the yellowstuff pads came in handy on the truck last week, 4 AM and 1/4mile away from the Park City, UT hotel a doe and her yearling are suddenly in my lights, full ABS with the car/trailer in tow, doe scrambles off to the side but the yearling panics back and forth, at the last minute it ran back across in front of me and I tagged it in the butt at about 15 mph with the lower LH front bumper, no damage to the truck and I didn't see a carcass the following morning so I'm hoping it only received bruising/scrapes and a life lesson

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Old 09-05-2008, 10:41 PM   #84
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well you may actually want to experiment rather than rely on a book/word of mouth

I drove an RX-8 with a much more aggressive rear pad and rather than set the rear ABS off early it made the car rotate under trail braking - big time ...

the yellowstuff pads came in handy on the truck last week, 4 AM and 1/4mile away from the Park City, UT hotel a doe and her yearling are suddenly in my lights, full ABS with the car/trailer in tow, doe scrambles off to the side but the yearling panics back and forth, at the last minute it ran back across in front of me and I tagged it in the butt at about 15 mph with the lower LH front bumper, no damage to the truck and I didn't see a carcass the following morning so I'm hoping it only received bruising/scrapes and a life lesson
That's what would be expected under trail braking, with an aggressive rear pad.
Under hard threshold braking, the rear end would get skittish and squirrely also.

Glad nothing happened with the deer impact.
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:44 PM   #85
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even under max braking I never experienced the rear ABS going off early

however, I didn't care for how it impacted the handling traits, my preference is for the same compound front and rear; neither more or less aggressive than the front pads
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:54 AM   #86
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Upon installing the EBC Yellowstuff rear pads, I encountered the problem in that they were too thick (caliper wouldn't clear). What seemed to be the issue was the extra layer of the red bed-in material, as well as the mil or two of yellow paint on the backing plate. Luckily I had a set of new Hawk HP Plus on hand at Sebring (rear set cleared just fine).

Since I was installing the pads at the track, I ran in to the issue of having wasted too much time trying to get the rear EBC Yellowstuff in place. The run group was being called, so I threw in the HP Plus and did the first session with a split EBC Yellow Front/ Hawk HP Plus rear combo. This was very strange indeed. What happened upon initial braking was predictable- plenty of front bias keeping the car pointed very straight during braking. The wierd stuff occured during release, as the two compounds had extremely different release characteristics- basically making the car almost coil down, then spring forward as the brakes were released. This made for some very strange turn-in dynamics.

After the first session ended, I threw in the HP Plus up front and calm was restored. Also, after having used Porterfield R4S for the past few track days, I fell in love with the HP Plus again. I know many here hate the pads, but they offer the perfect balance of initial bite, modulation and release for my taste. A new set at full thickness is basically fade free.

Perfectbrakes is recalling my rear set of EBC Yellow to see if they are within spec. Hopefully the issue is resolved as I still want to try them out.

Last edited by SouthFL; 09-09-2008 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:37 PM   #87
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wow,

that had to be an interesting day. thanks for the update..

beers


Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthFL View Post
Upon installing the EBC Yellowstuff rear pads, I encountered the problem in that they were too thick (caliper wouldn't clear). What seemed to be the issue was the extra layer of the red bed-in material, as well as the mil or two of yellow paint on the backing plate. Luckily I had a set of new Hawk HP Plus on hand at Sebring (rear set cleared just fine).

Since I was installing the pads at the track, I ran in to the issue of having wasted too much time trying to get the rear EBC Yellowstuff in place. The run group was being called, so I threw in the HP Plus and did the first session with a split EBC Yellow Front/ Hawk HP Plus rear combo. This was very strange indeed. What happened upon initial braking was predictable- plenty of front bias keeping the car pointed very straight during braking. The wierd stuff occured during release, as the two compounds had extremely different release characteristics- basically making the car almost coil down, then spring forward as the brakes were released. This made for some very strange turn-in dynamics.

After the first session ended, I threw in the HP Plus up front and calm was restored. Also, after having used Porterfield R4S for the past few track days, I fell in love with the HP Plus again. I know many here hate the pads, but they offer the perfect balance of initial bite, modulation and release for my taste. A new set at full thickness is basically fade free.

Perfectbrakes is recalling my rear set of EBC Yellow to see if they are within spec. Hopefully the issue is resolved as I still want to try them out.
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Old 09-11-2008, 12:00 AM   #88
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The EBC pads come with integral anti-noise shims.

Were you trying to install them with the loose OE shims fitted?
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:06 AM   #89
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The EBC pads come with integral anti-noise shims.

Were you trying to install them with the loose OE shims fitted?
No OEM shims. The caliper would come down and stop at the backing plate. The new HP Plus cleared easily.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:08 AM   #90
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wow,

that had to be an interesting day. thanks for the update..

beers
First session with the mixed brake combo was strange indeed. Lunch session was a charity event to give sick children hot lap rides around Sebring, so luckily I had the brakes sorted out by then.

Last edited by SouthFL; 09-11-2008 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:43 AM   #91
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I actually changed my mind after ordering and switched to the XR2/XR5 recommendation for Cobalts. Quick question their site seems to indicate that there is no bedding procedure for these. ("Cobalt XR-Series friction composites do not require bedding/burnishing to achieve optimal performance...") and I haven't found anything here or on the rest of the Internet that documents a bedding process for these pads.

I actually found this link in a Vette forum apparantly from Cobalt indicating that they indeed to not need bedding:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...54&postcount=9

Is that everyones experience here?
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Old 09-11-2008, 12:50 PM   #92
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I actually changed my mind after ordering and switched to the XR2/XR5 recommendation for Cobalts. Quick question their site seems to indicate that there is no bedding procedure for these. ("Cobalt XR-Series friction composites do not require bedding/burnishing to achieve optimal performance...") and I haven't found anything here or on the rest of the Internet that documents a bedding process for these pads.

I actually found this link in a Vette forum apparantly from Cobalt indicating that they indeed to not need bedding:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...54&postcount=9

Is that everyones experience here?
Nice! That was the first time I'd seen a detailed scientific explanation of why the Cobalts are so different from anything else. Great find and esp.. helpful for those looking to substantiate new pads for race and HPDE use.

I put my XR2/XR5 combo on in July, replacing the GT Sports. I didn't do anything to the rotors in prep for the change. I drove 400 miles with them to the track, and during the first session I tried to be careful with them....nevertheless they worked really well.... no.... make that they worked soooo good I really had to modulate the pedal to keep from slowing too much, too quickly. Love that 'friction'!

Anyway to start weekend with the XR2/XR5s the 1st few laps were gentle braking, then got progressively faster, finally came in for a cool down. That wasn't hard, considering I'd never been to NJMP Lightening track before, so 1st laps were following a lead car and then with after that the next few were with an instructor telling the line. Not sure if it was really needed (apparently not) but that's what I did, and had no problems in later sessions.
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:21 AM   #93
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Absolutely ... oem rotors are good for sustained abuse, however, if you can, cooling ducts to keep temps down can't hurt too.
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:22 PM   #94
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I run HPDE's with stock pads and rotors, and never experience soft pedal or fade.

I can chirp the fronts at 96mph, slow to 30mph, and repeat for 20 minute sessions.

After 11 track days in 3 years, and 24k miles, I still am on the original pads which I checked before the last track day, and they weren't half worn yet.

I even like the black ash that comes off easily, so where's the cheapest Mazda parts dealer so I can have another set ready just to be sure?

I'm never in rush hour dragging the brakes which might account for my brakes long life.

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Old 03-10-2011, 12:25 PM   #95
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^ hey get the lead out and grind those pads away
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Old 03-10-2011, 06:44 PM   #96
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^depends on your pads and level of abuse. The rotors are fine...it's the pads that make a difference, really. When I had stock pads many years ago, and after a long day of sessions at Watkins Glen, the OE pads were a bit toast, the pedal felt like wood. Probably from deposits. It wore off driving home, but that's what high speed ~120mph stopping can do.

After that I got different pads and put in cooling ducts. No problem since. But for serious track use, better pads make a better track car.
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:44 AM   #97
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After driving a fuel truck with a bad vacuum booster for several years, I've really learned to pulse and glide which works wonders for fuel economy, too.

On my first track day, a big girl instructor was ragging me for not using the brakes on a course where my top speed was 91mph and you slow to 60 for the corner.

She bedded those puppies in quick (lots of smell), and the car had been topped out (125) several times with about 7k miles on it.

My main course (H2R), you hit 90, slow to 30, and repeat about 5 times for 1.8 miles. The high horse guys (Vettes, etc) are always cooling their brakes and coolant in the pits, but I don't have even much smell.

However, I also have 07 auto that doesn't go over 7k rpm, and I won't track if the ambient temp is expected to be over 90 f.

I remembered that on my 73 RX3 the pads never wore but I though they were heat spoting the rotors so I put other generic pads on. Big mistake! I was putting pads on every 10k miles and the dust was annoying.

My few mods are BHR ign and upgraded fuel pump, and alignment made the car very neutral.

I'm sure that you guys doing over 100 mph need to make sure you have the right pads, but I was out to make a very nice, balanced, street car that I can test on the track.

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Old 03-11-2011, 10:07 AM   #98
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Not all the detail is here https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=83801.html and I redid it last year as weather & time had degraded the tape used... but this works great to this day....

ps. Add'l instructions: It's easiest if you take the front bumper off so you can really easily see what's going on.

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Old 03-12-2011, 09:09 AM   #99
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Nadrealist - if you check out the link again https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=83801.html

I've added at the end of that thread a few more pics I had of the redo. They show much more of the internal work that was missing from the original 2006 post. Perhaps giving you ideas and help you if you're going to try it.
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:12 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RK View Post
I actually changed my mind after ordering and switched to the XR2/XR5 recommendation for Cobalts. Quick question their site seems to indicate that there is no bedding procedure for these. ("Cobalt XR-Series friction composites do not require bedding/burnishing to achieve optimal performance...") and I haven't found anything here or on the rest of the Internet that documents a bedding process for these pads.

I actually found this link in a Vette forum apparantly from Cobalt indicating that they indeed to not need bedding:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...54&postcount=9

Is that everyones experience here?
I swapped my OE pads for some Cobalt CSRs (replacement for the GT Sport) for a PDX at NJMP today.

-They worked OK (a bit like OE, but with less initial bite) in 25 degree weather this morning when I left the house. No noise. I put them on yesterday and had only done a quick spin around the block (literally), so they hadn't had any heat in them.
-They worked really, really well on track. Tons of initial bite, and they stayed very strong and consistent throughout the day. Lightning isn't particularly rough on brakes; there are two significant braking zones (~100-50 and ~120-60). This was on OE rotors, Castrol fluid and stock-size Yoko AD07s.
-They had a lot more bite on the way home (~45 degrees outside), but also a LOT of noise; way too much noise for daily use, IMO. I don't mind a little squeaking, but...my wife could hear me pulling up in front of the house.
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