Track Day Brakes - Operating Temperature Range - Page 3 - RX8Club.com



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Old 08-27-2008, 04:19 PM   #51
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I have a set EBC yellowstuff pads coming for the front of my Honda Ridgeline truck. These are not the same as their yellowstuff track pads, but are instead a derivative made especially for trucks/SUVs doing towing duty. I'd be interested in hearing what you think about about the EBC yellow track pads. EBCs biggest problem seems to be distribution. They have a catalog full of pads that nobody seems to carry and take 3 weeks or more to oder in. Some of the pads they list part numbers for are not available period, like the rear pads for my truck.

I'd be interested in knowing if the yellow track pad actually has tapered leading and trailing edges as shown in their marketing pics. You would typically only do this for a basic street pad, not a performance pad. The Porterfield R4-1s are 100% full thickness across the entire surface as are most other track-oriented pads.
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got my SUV/Truck yellowstuff pads in, they have a very small taper on each end, not like the huge taper shown on their webpage

should get them on Sunday or Monday along with a new pair of Centric rotors, just in time for the 1600 mile tow to KC


Same here on the Yellowstuff (the pads just came in today); small chamfered edges as well as a grooved split in the middle. My set of Porterfield R4-S had huge tapers. Hawk HP Plus have no taper and no split.

Last edited by SouthFL; 08-27-2008 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 08-27-2008, 05:15 PM   #52
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Where are people getting the Cobalts from? Truechoice appears to be the only place with online ordering:

http://www.truechoice.com/prodinfo.a...RB%20XR2%20D44

No local distributors in NE Ohio.

I'm running back-to-back weekend HPDEs in October at MidOhio then Beaver run. Likely on rcomps. Figurd Hawk ceramics would be fine for one weekend but by the second I'll likely be pushing my brakes pretty hard. Worth the investment for some better pads. Don't see a reason to waste money no HP+ if I'm going to swap back to ceramics anyway and it sounds like the X2/X5 would be a better option than blues.
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Old 08-27-2008, 05:59 PM   #53
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Where are people getting the Cobalts from? Truechoice appears to be the only place with online ordering:

http://www.truechoice.com/prodinfo.a...RB%20XR2%20D44

No local distributors in NE Ohio.

I'm running back-to-back weekend HPDEs in October at MidOhio then Beaver run. Likely on rcomps. Figurd Hawk ceramics would be fine for one weekend but by the second I'll likely be pushing my brakes pretty hard. Worth the investment for some better pads. Don't see a reason to waste money no HP+ if I'm going to swap back to ceramics anyway and it sounds like the X2/X5 would be a better option than blues.
try www.synaptic3.com (NH) or www.alancoxautomotive.com (GA - online ordering) both good racing shops that deal in RX-8 mods.

Last edited by Spin9k; 08-27-2008 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 08-27-2008, 07:03 PM   #54
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Where are people getting the Cobalts from? Truechoice appears to be the only place with online ordering:

http://www.truechoice.com/prodinfo.a...RB%20XR2%20D44

No local distributors in NE Ohio.

I'm running back-to-back weekend HPDEs in October at MidOhio then Beaver run. Likely on rcomps. Figurd Hawk ceramics would be fine for one weekend but by the second I'll likely be pushing my brakes pretty hard. Worth the investment for some better pads. Don't see a reason to waste money no HP+ if I'm going to swap back to ceramics anyway and it sounds like the X2/X5 would be a better option than blues.
Is there a reason that you don't want to take a look at Carbotech? I use the same brake setup as many of the SE guys, with XP8's in the front, and Bobcats in the rear.
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Old 08-27-2008, 07:12 PM   #55
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I receieved and installed the EBC Yellowstuff-SUV/Truck pads on my Ridgeline truck on Sunday night. I was surprised that the original OE pads had less than 25% pad thickness worn off despite having 66,000 miles on them total and some serious towing at the rated limit. They didn't appear to be glazed or anything.

Following a 200 mile break-in the EBC pads definitely pull the truck down faster and with less pedal effort. I'm about to head out tonight on a 1600 mile tow to Kansas City. So they'll definitely get put to the test over the next several days.

I installed all new Centric rotors and Porterfield R4-1 pads all around on the RX-8. I'm VERY happy with them. No taper, can't recall if they have the groove in the center or not, I don't think so.

Last edited by TeamRX8; 08-27-2008 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 08-27-2008, 10:32 PM   #56
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Thanks for the links Spin.

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Originally Posted by BlueRenesis82 View Post
Is there a reason that you don't want to take a look at Carbotech? I use the same brake setup as many of the SE guys, with XP8's in the front, and Bobcats in the rear.
I did but I was under the impression that Carbotechs aren't a good idea unless you put on new or machined rotors and then stick to just the XP10/XP8/Bobcats between track/street. I'm trying to avoid needing to machine or replace my OEM rotors if possible but I'm planning on checking with someone at Colbalt to verify that they don't have issues with OEM rotors that have had Hawk HPS and soon Hawk Ceramic pad use.

I can do the same for the Carbotechs but I think I've already basically read the answer they'd give me - don't do it.

Events aren't until October so I still have time to research. If I had to replace or machine the rotors then I have to but I'm only going to be running at a HPDE 2/3 level tops and don't expect to push my car to the limits that would require more than what I'm planning.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:34 AM   #57
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Thanks for the links Spin.



I did but I was under the impression that Carbotechs aren't a good idea unless you put on new or machined rotors and then stick to just the XP10/XP8/Bobcats between track/street. I'm trying to avoid needing to machine or replace my OEM rotors if possible but I'm planning on checking with someone at Colbalt to verify that they don't have issues with OEM rotors that have had Hawk HPS and soon Hawk Ceramic pad use.

I can do the same for the Carbotechs but I think I've already basically read the answer they'd give me - don't do it.

Events aren't until October so I still have time to research. If I had to replace or machine the rotors then I have to but I'm only going to be running at a HPDE 2/3 level tops and don't expect to push my car to the limits that would require more than what I'm planning.
When I spoke with Cobalt Friction, they had no problem with pad swaps between their pads and street pads. I would verify, however, the switch beween their pad and a ceramic pad.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:44 AM   #58
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My pad progression timeline, with no problems like pad deposits or vibration and without any cleaning of the rotors when changing pads has been ...

start:
04----- OEM > HAWK HP+ > Cobalt GT Sport > Cobalt X5/X2
FRONT OEM rotors > RB 2 piece --------------------------------->
REAR OEM rotors -------------------------------------------------->

I simply did the requsite bed-in for each pad as specified by the manufacturer.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:04 PM   #59
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Thanks for the links Spin.



I did but I was under the impression that Carbotechs aren't a good idea unless you put on new or machined rotors and then stick to just the XP10/XP8/Bobcats between track/street. I'm trying to avoid needing to machine or replace my OEM rotors if possible but I'm planning on checking with someone at Colbalt to verify that they don't have issues with OEM rotors that have had Hawk HPS and soon Hawk Ceramic pad use.

I can do the same for the Carbotechs but I think I've already basically read the answer they'd give me - don't do it.

Events aren't until October so I still have time to research. If I had to replace or machine the rotors then I have to but I'm only going to be running at a HPDE 2/3 level tops and don't expect to push my car to the limits that would require more than what I'm planning.
Machining rotors is pretty cheap, normally right around $15 a rotor. Plus then you know for sure you don't have any weird pad buildup on the rotor.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:28 PM   #60
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I just bought an RX8 so you can take my opinions and experience with that in mind, but I do have a couple of years of track experience at Sebring with an Acura RSX-S which was very hard on the brakes because of the weight distribution. That's one of the reasons I've moved to the Mazda.

I used both the Carbotech XP10front/XP8rear combo and more recently the Cobalt XR2front/XR5rear combo with excellent results. I'm a big believer in dedicated track pads for the track and street/performance pads for the street. As several have stated above modern track pad compounds such as the Cobalts and the Carbotechs (among others) do have a broader operating range than some of the legacy track pad compounds still being used. I found the Cobalts to perform equally to the Carbotechs under heavy braking but the Cobalts seem to last about 50% longer. I could use up a new front set of Carbotechs at the end of 2 days and I could get 3.5 track days out of the front Cobalts.

Although TeamRX8 may have a point about some of the temp range numbers, my personal experience has been that both the Carbotech XP10/8 and Cobalt XR2/5 bite well on the street. I usually put them on a day or two before and event and won't take them off until the next day after I get home. That said, I DON'T recommend using them on the street. They make a lot of dust that wants to become an initmate part of your wheels and at street temperatures, like TeamRX8 said ,they wear the rotors more, although compared to something like Hawk Blues they are pretty rotor friendly. Also they are expensive and won't last as long on the street as a street performance pad.
So to sum up, track pads on the street
too dusty
too expensive
too abrasive
wear too fast

I used Axxis Ultimates on the street on my Acura. At least for the Acura they were the best bang for the buck. They won't make uneven pad deposits under street or Autocross use but they won't hold up to HPDEs unless you are a beginner. You will cook them on the track if you press them. Both Carbotech and Cobalt make a street/performance pad but they are more expensive and neither should be used on a road course. The Axxis Ultimates do make some dust but so do all performance compounds. If you don't like dust stick with the OEM pads on the street.

Regarding the use of Carbotechs on rotors with existing pad bedding layers. Although their website maintain their pads need a fresh rotor face I have tried them with new rotors, machined old rotors, and old rotors with Axxis Ultimates all over them and after a proper bedding procedure I could find no difference in initial bite, wear rate, pad fade, or pedal pressure. I suspect Carbotech's lawyers are just covering their *****. I use the 1.5 hour drive over to the track to scrape some of the old adherent street pad layer off and then bed in the track pads when I get there. I rebed the street pads back in when I switch back and have never had any problems whatsoever.

I look forward to better braking with my new RX8 at Sebring in October and I will be ordering a set of Cobalt XR2/XR5 shortly. Cobalt pads are available direct from Cobalt at www.cobaltfriction.com . See you at the track.

Last edited by justjim; 08-28-2008 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:40 PM   #61
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With regard to only running in HPDE 2, is there a reason that you are planning on running R-comps? That would solve your brake conundrum right there by lowering the grip levels that your car would see.
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Old 08-30-2008, 08:37 PM   #62
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I know this is mostly about HPDE, but which brake pads do well in autocross?

I'll probably keep my stock brake pads until I grab a set of R-Compounds, but that is just around the corner.
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Old 08-30-2008, 10:00 PM   #63
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Stock pads are fine for everything up until full track days (long lapping sessions) and even hold up to very light lapping. I had my first brake fade session ever in the RX-8 about a month ago at an enduro autocross event - 5 nonstop laps of a very fast course (several 65-30 braking zones per lap), and by the end of the last lap, there was noticeable squish in my pedal. My brake pads are also very low, though, so it probably wouldn't have been a problem with pads being any newer.
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Old 08-30-2008, 11:19 PM   #64
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I'm not so worried about fade as I am feel. One of the guys who I autocross with has HP+ and it feels like it stops harder. It has a much stronger initial bite than stock.

I know tires are what stops you and brake pads only change the feel.
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Old 09-02-2008, 08:15 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by BlueRenesis82 View Post
With regard to only running in HPDE 2, is there a reason that you are planning on running R-comps? That would solve your brake conundrum right there by lowering the grip levels that your car would see.
Why would I want lower grip levels? I'd prefer to have good grip and good brakes than less grip and good brakes. I've got a set of 245/40/18 Hoosier R3S04s that are going on my stock rims. Don't see any reason why they wouldn't be perfect for running HPDEs if it's dry out.

FWIW I decided to give the Cobalt GT-Sports a shot. Seems like it fits where I'm at currently but should provide more braking and manage with either the comps or my street setup if it's wet out.
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Old 09-02-2008, 08:24 PM   #66
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Why would I want lower grip levels? I'd prefer to have good grip and good brakes than less grip and good brakes. I've got a set of 245/40/18 Hoosier R3S04s that are going on my stock rims. Don't see any reason why they wouldn't be perfect for running HPDEs if it's dry out.

FWIW I decided to give the Cobalt GT-Sports a shot. Seems like it fits where I'm at currently but should provide more braking and manage with either the comps or my street setup if it's wet out.
All I was saying was that maybe running HPDE isn't the best place in the world to try out R-comps, but since I have no idea what your skill level is...I really can't say anything.
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:38 PM   #67
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All I was saying was that maybe running HPDE isn't the best place in the world to try out R-comps, but since I have no idea what your skill level is...I really can't say anything.
Sure you can. It's all good info and I'm the first to admit that I'm feeling my way through the learning process. It'll be my 3rd and 4th full weekend HPDE. This will be the second time this year at Mid-Ohio. First time down I was on stock Dunlops with almost no tread on HPS pads. Sucked ***** especially on the 3 out of 8 sessions that were wet (1 very wet). Seems like going back to the same track only 2 months later would be a good opportunity to get on a good course where I already know the preferred line and to see how much of a difference track tires/brakes make.

I'd much rather prefer learning how to drive on a track in a car that's as close to track prepared as possible. Granted I also have better street tires now that I could run with but I really don't see an advantage to ever being on a track with a car that isn't as prepared for the track as it could be.

And so as to not get TOO far off topic how much of a temp change would someone see going from street to rcomps in a NA 8 and moderate track driving? I'm assuming it'd be enough to melt most street pads whereas good street tires might let someone get away with Hawk HPS or Ceramic Perf. style pads.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:24 PM   #68
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Rcomps and street pads are a disaster waiting to happen. All of a sudden you have vastly increased grip in the braking zones, so rather than tires being the limiting factor the pads are. You would melt street pads in short order. I still would not recommend running HPS pads on good street tires. The amount of heat that you can put into your brakes when running hard can be quite considerable.

As far as running Rcomps, if this is your first time doing it I would be very careful. Everything that I have ever read about rcomps in general is that your breakaway point is much more sudden. No howling tire, you will just all of a sudden run out of grip. Also if these are new tires, you should really make sure that you read up on Hoosiers website to make sure that you cycle them in properly, so that you don't waste any of the grip that you have.

Also going to track tires rather than street tires will cover up mistakes, especially if as you said the first time you were at this track is was wet. Learning the line in slower rubber and then going to faster rubber will prevent a lot of errors that better equipment can cover up.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:49 PM   #69
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^

I much agree with BlueRenesis on the points he brings up. Take note... it's safer and more instructive to learn on non R-Comp tires. AND always use appropriate brake compound for the track.

Last edited by SouthFL; 09-02-2008 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:06 PM   #70
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I'm running XR2's in the front and GTS's in the rear for street and track use...this setup has been great for me so far! Haven't had much more dust than normal and squeal is no worse than the original stock pads used to be.

I think someone asked about Cobalt's wear on stock rotors? There are a few teams in the KONI Challenge series that still run stock rotors with these pads and have noticed very limited rotor wear. About as much that can be expected from a full on race car, lol.

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Old 09-03-2008, 06:54 AM   #71
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^

I much agree with BlueRenesis on the points he brings up. Take note... it's safer and more instructive to learn on non R-Comp tires. AND always use appropriate brake compound for the track.

^+1 Your (good) H-perf street tires will help you learn because they tell you (noise and gentle breakaway) where you are overdriving them (and the track).

As a relatively new track driver, you should be safe with any pad material from OEM up. Braking zones are the last places to cut lap time and one of the most dangerous to screw up in. The GT Sports should work great for you under almost any conditions you'll experience, so they'll be a good upgrade choice, even w/r-comps.

If you really want to run R-comps, you'd do better to sell/trade your Hoosiers and get a tad less ultimate grip tire like an NT-01 (wear 100) or similar vs the Hoosiers (wear 40). They are far far easier to handle near the limit (gentle breakaway and easily retrievable when there), last much much longer, need almost no special care, and cost far less.

Personally, I've noted that I'm the limiting factor with R-comps in that my self preservation instinct usually steps in before I reach the limits that the R-comps might impose. Yea they're that awesome!

From what I've seen of people that get in trouble on track, they're generally the ones that abuse their car, rather than take the time to learn it like an instrument.

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Old 09-03-2008, 08:50 AM   #72
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Makes sense then. I'm certain I'd be the limiting factor with rcomps since my 8 is still my DD and I love it entirely too much to get stupid with it on the track. I'll plan on going with the street tires at least on the first day and expect to use them on both. Of course Ohio weather in October might make that decision moot.

I'll bring the rcomps and possibly try them out for a session or two on the second day if my instructor - who happens to have sold me the comps - thinks I'll be safe with them. He'll be in the car with me and is my insurance agent so he'll have plenty of incentive to make a good judgement. I got the set for $400 after they sold their Audi so it's hard to get them for much less. I would like to at least try them out and see what a difference they make. I'm not exactly concerned with their wear.

Since I'm pretty sure I won't have an instructor in car at Beaver (they're going more with a racing school HPDE format then a club HPDE format) I'll plan on sticking to the street tires. I'm sure by myself I'll need plenty of warning from the tires if I'm overdriving. I can use these up for non-competitive autocrossing next year if I'm running BSP if the 8 gets dropped to STX or I drop in a midpipe. If I get another set next year I'll shop around more and make sure I'm getting comps that are better for learning no the track.

Thanks for all the great info.
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:53 AM   #73
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At the same time I wouldn't let those Hoosiers sit for an extended period of time, they age and that reduces grip just like running them.
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Old 09-03-2008, 09:18 AM   #74
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sounds like it is time to set up another tack day or sell them.
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:05 PM   #75
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I guess it depends on the R-comps you are using. I would suggest that you start with something like RA'1s they still sing quite a bit before they break away. You can hear them pretty clearly here and this is my sixth track day on them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4ZuwLnMKJw


But back on topic be warned that if you do not use track pads with R-comp you will be very disappointed and have the potential to ruin your disc's with pad deposits and glaze your pads.

In the above vid I am on XR5-XR2's and they worked out very well for me at the same note if you decide to go with Cobalts there GTS pads IMO are good enough unless you are threshold braking. I still don't recommend them for street use if your car is your daily driver
I agree that some are different than others, I was talking about the Hoosiers that he says that he has.
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