gojackets

Hi all,

I've just bought a 2005 RX-8, and am dying to get it out to the track... I recently got rid of my Acura Integra GS-R, which I've taken to ~10 HPDE weekends, and loved.

I had good success with Hawk HP+ pads on the Integra, and only had to run them on the front (ran HPS in the rear), but at the last laps in a 25-30 min session could definitely tell they were overheating, even on street tires. My question: for the RX-8 on street tires, 1) are HP+ pads up to track weekends, and 2) given the more favorable weight distribution vs. the Integra, are upgraded "track worthy" rear pads a requirement? A follow up to question 2 - would you recommend the same compound front and rear? I'm planning to only run these pads at the track, so street use is not important. Any input is welcome.

Thanks!

SouthFL

I run HP Plus both front and back at an HPDE 3 or 4 pace. They hold up well enough for what I need out of them. Only if I stay out more than 40 minutes will I begin to feel some fade.
I'm not pushing the car to its limits (its my street car that sees track duty), and I also like not having to swap out pads for track days, so this compound suits me fine. It allows me enough braking at the track to lap quickly and smoothly on a street tire, yet I bet if I throw on some R compound rubber and try to run at my own limit, I would surpass the HP Plus' abilities.

Another highly recommended compound is the Cobalt Friction GT Sport as supposedly a step above the HP Plus in terms of bite. Anything more needed than that and you're simply needing race compound pads (from your preferred brand- Hawk/Porterfield/Carbotech, etc.).

My suggestion would be to try a set of HP Plus at first as a minimum baseline, then go from there as you see how much pad you're going to need.

Feffman

GoJackets:

Contact Matt Nicholson at CarboTech (www.CarboTech.com). Matt is very helpful in determining compounds for various uses.

Mark Pfeffer

gojackets

Thanks for the replies, guys...

I've sent an e-mail to Carbotech for their recommendation, and I'll see what they say (by the way, their website is www.ctbrakes.com)

I'll post their recommendation here...

staticlag

Hawk Blue 9012 Track Pads all around.

Street pads (HPS, HP+, Hawk Performance ceramic) really can't match the safety of a track pad.

SouthFL

^

Many underestimate the ability of the HP Plus at the track. It's not a race compound, but it's definately not to be grouped with HPS and Performance Ceramic.

chetrickerman

whats the diff between the blue and the HP+?

SouthFL

Operating temperature range. Torque. Initial bite, feel, ability to modulate, etc. The Hawk Blue is a true race pad with the ability to sustain high heat without turning to mush. Hawk's HT-10 and HT-14 offer even more heat sustainability with more initial bite than blue.

The HP Plus is a step below a race pad's capabilities. It is an intermediate between a street pad and a track pad.

chetrickerman

you would have to switch out the blue's correct and then warm them up?

altiain

iTrader: (3)

Blues are a dedicated track pad. You do not want to use these on a street car, as you will never get them up to their minimum operating temp on the street. Until you get them up to temp, they will actually perform worse than OE pads.

SouthFL

Yes, blues should be swapped in at the track and brought to operating temp (not hard to do) for proper use. Drive them around town and they're going to be harsh on the rotors.

mwood

^true dat...don't ask me how I know...

I ran various Hawk compounds for a couple of years, but ended up swapping to Carbotech Panther series...less aggressive dust (much easier to clean) and less likely to overheat (compared to the HP+ in my application) and cause uneven pad tranfer layer (which results in squealing and shuddering). I had problems with the HP+ and pad "smearing", but that was on a 3350lbs Mustang, the '8 is probably much easier on brakes!

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I took South Fls advice from another thread and have to say he was right on the money with the HP+ . Good all round pad for track and street .

SouthFL

I also had problems with the HP Plus on a Stage II WRX wagon (not enough rotor and heat dissipation on that car on stock brakes at the track for its power and weight).

On the RX8, the HP Plus has been fine.

mwood

Makes sense. The Hawks are also a good value

You might want to try the Carbotechs, too, just for comparisons sake

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

overheating the brake pads at an HPDE sounds more like a heavy brake foot issue than a brake pad compound issue ...

SouthFL

^

HPDE 4 / Advanced Solo is basically 8 thru 9/10ths race pace.
People run really hard out there.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

and you go 40 minutes on HP+ compared to his 20 - 25 minutes on HP+

I was referring to the OP, not you

SouthFL

He was referring to the 20 minutes he got out of them on his Integra.
I get about 40 minutes out of them on the RX8.
I used to get 20 minutes out of them on my WRX.

The larger rotor diameter and heat dissipation of the RX8 brakes allows one to get better use out of the pad.

For the most part, at first, as a novice, one drags brakes, causing excessive heat build-up. As the learning curve grows, one puts less heat into the brakes as the brake zones shorten. Yet, as the intensity in pace increases as skill level rises, one again builds heat into the pads, therefore needing a better compound. It's all relative to vehicle, skill and pace.

Edit: and apologies Team, I thought you were referring to HPDE in general.

mwood

That might be somewhat true with the RX8's stock pad compound (I don't know, I've never lapped my RX8), but I can think of plenty of "high performance" cars that can easily melt or crystallize stock pads with semi aggressive, 8/10th's track driving...I think it's not about the driver, so much, as it's about the heat range of the pad vs. the brake systems ability to dissipate heat.

Seeing as there are a number of posts on this board that I've read suggesting going to higher temp brake fluid to avoid boiling/losing pedal, but not that many complaining about rapid pad wear, I'd guess the RX8 pad to have a fairly high heat range, maybe in the 900 degree range or so? Most street/track pad, like the HP+ will go a little higher, like maybe 1000-1050 degrees, I think.

BlueRenesis82

XP-8 for the win.

gojackets

My inquiry to Carbotech:

Hi -

I wanted to see if you could recommend a set of pads for me...

I've just bought a Mazda RX-8, and I'm planning to take it to 3-4 HPDE track weekends a year, on street tires. I have prior experience with Hawk HP+ pads from my Acura Integra, and found that my pace was pushing the limits of those on street tires, and I would see some fade after 25-30 minutes. I'm concerned that the extra weight of the RX-8 will be too much for the HP+ pads, and I've heard great things about Carbotech...

Could you recommend a compound for me - these pads will be swapped in just for track events, so no need for street use. Do you recommend the same compound for the front and rear of the car?

And their response:

I would recommend our XP10 front, and XP8 rear for your track use. Our Bobcat 1521 would be the best choice for your street use. You can use the Bobcat's and any of our XP series compounds on the same rotors with no problems at all. Let me know if you have any other questions or comments.

Sounds reasonable, based on the compound descriptions on the website. I'm interested in their claim that a completely ceramic pad (as opposed to one with metallic content) is the way to go. One thing they claim on the site is that their pads are essentially incompatible with other pads on the same rotor, so they would not recommend, for example, running stock pads for street use and XP10's for track use on the same rotor without machining the surface to expose fresh rotor. If you follow that recommendation, that puts you either 1) having dedicated track rotors that match your pads or 2) moving to their Bobcat series pads for street use.

In the past, I've always moved back and forth between Hawk HPS for the street and HP+ for the track, but I suppose that's still "keeping it in the family".

BlueRenesis82

<---Track rotors.

gojackets

So, I'm still debating this issue. There's such a big difference in price between the Carbotech and Hawk ($122 for Bobcats vs. $75 for HPS, $155 for XP-8 vs. $106-111 for Hawk HP+ or Hawk Blue).

Anyone have experience running Hawk Ceramic on the same rotors as HP+ or Blue? I would like to run ceramic for daily use to cut down on dust and still give decent performance (I don't ask/expect my daily pads to perform like track pads, though). I know the theory is that pad material transfer is the reason Carbotech recommends not mixing pad materials, but if you're going to re-bed the pads when you change them out, I'm not sure if that matters as much. The other alternative is HPS for daily use, but I'd rather have something a little less dusty.

I'm not crazy about having a complete extra set of rotors for the track pads, given the prices on OEM Mazda Rotors. I can't find them for less than $114 each.

Anyone with firsthand experience?

BlueRenesis82

Get a set used from Mazmart, just get them turned and you save a bundle.