roflcopter

iTrader: (2)

Personally, any height adjustment caused by switching to different mounts (I run the RaceRoots ones) isn't worth worrying about. If you made different brackets, altered the subframe, or did something crazy to try and shift weight around then it would be an issue, but if it's intended to replace the OEM mounts then someone making that protest needs a swift kick in the nuts.

I'm not sure if I'm just grumpy this morning or what, but the incessant pedantry from Team gets old... come actually run a car and compete and then you can complain when you lose by 0.002s and blame it on the motor being 3/8" too low, until then you can't protest from the garage.

RE-Vision

Team is right in that it could be protestable - but it would be squarely in the realm of a weeny protest.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Unfortunately it wouldn’t be a weeny post. 1/16” might be weeny, 1/2” plus not so. Need to get the installed OEM motor mount dimension to be sure of anything though. If your going to stick with these mounts then imo the spacer needs to be underneath, but it could have a big center hole to match the center hole under the mount for minimal weight. It would likely need to be stitch welded to the mount with the original mount tab removed for the side that has a mounting stud coming up from the subframe in order to have enough threads protrude through for the nut. The other side you can just use a longer bolt.

Roflcoptor, you’re comment is backwards minded; I don’t want someone coming after me now that the entire world knows about it. I’m forced to deal with it and it’s rather annoying. Otherwise your complete indifference to the personal situation that had me sidelined for the last several years is fine and I won’t take it personal. Hopefully you never have to discover the reality of it for yourself some day. I’m actually pushing hard now to get it done and this isn’t helping.

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Tamra

I don't understand the underneath thing... putting it on top or underneath does not change the position of the engine given that no modifications were required for the mount arm to fit into the slot. The spacer is designed to be on top where I pictured it. If anything it would make the engine sit on the tall side of stock due to the added stiffness of the urethane not letting it squish down as far.

These mounts are a stiffer, OEM replacement when used with the spacer, so I do not believe they are protestable if they are installed as intended.

Also, I would never protest someone for something like this unless they are doing something blatant trying to get a performance advantage. My post was intended as an FYI because I know they are a popular aftermarket motor mount, the pictures on the site don't show the spacer, and the instructions aren't great, which can make it confusing. I clarified with the vendor that the spacer is supposed to be used to retain stock engine location. Just helping others avoid the frustration we experienced.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

The part you don’t seem to understand is that without knowing what the engine height is on the OE mounts then you have no way of knowing if what you have is at the allowed height or not. The unmounted height is not what the rule defines. There seems to be multiple assumptions being made.

Otherwise how is it that your mount with spacer and engine weight on it appears to be the same as my picture of an uninstalled mount without spacer? But then you also stated you don’t think the OE mounts squish down much if any?

As an engineer it just doesn’t compute for me.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

In case it hasn't been mentioned ..... any engine mount that lowers the engine (like those RX8performance ones do) messes up the stock setting to align the PPF enough to cause powertrain vibration.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Only if you adjusted it afterward to the dimension in the manual.

These cars with ultra-stiff suspension, steamroller race tires, solid delrin diff & rear subframe bushings, etc. you’d never notice that contribution over all the other shakey-shakey stuff going on.

Otherwise, you just have to account for it. The critical point is it needs to be aligned in a straight line. The dimension between the PPF and chassis brace won’t match the OE manual dimension is all. If it was in a straight line and you installed lower engine mounts it’d still be aligned, but the position measurement would have decreased, but that’s assuming it actually is lower than OE.

Because we still don’t know what the actual installed OE engine position is. Maybe the OE mounts squish down more than the lowered position of a shorter, stiffer aftermarket mount. Or maybe they squish less and that spacer actually needs to be thicker. Right now nobody seems to know how the two compare *when installed*. We only have a picture comparing them uninstalled.

TomD_Cincy

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to rotate my tires this weekend on my 09 and can take some measurements for you guys while I'm at it. Car is on stock motor mounts. Mounts probably have roughly 100K miles on them.


I'm assuming you want the measurements from the subframe up to brackets (H in picture, but on the car of course), but let me know if you need something else.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Yes, that’s the dimension needed. Still working on it myself too.

Thanks.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Yeah ...that's what I meant. Whether you notice it or not isn't the point , you'll certainly wear some things out if you don't do it right.

IMO that spacer isn't a good solution anyway . Over time the exhaust side mount drops significantly due to the poly compressing . It needs a full diameter washer to prevent that happening . Something I did on mine many years ago..............

mrazny

iTrader: (1)

Like everything, context matters. And particularly with protests there are going to be a lot of points of view involved.

Just focusing on the Protest Committee itself, I think it would be deemed "well-founded", but not "upheld", with a protest fee returned to the protester.

Coming from a competitor perspective, I'd damn well prefer to see this kind of thing handled or discussed outside of the formal protest process, as who the hell knows what the PC will want to see done to demonstrate compliance. Install fresh OEM mounts while impounded?

As to why it wouldn't be upheld, multiple possibilities:

1. Because "H" is longer with the Aftermarket mounts, and thus higher, and thus not a performance benefit.
2. Because reasonable intent was not malicious, and total change was deemed not a performance benefit (performance benefit determination will vary drastically PC to PC)
3. Because they do not want to open pandora's box for all motor mount changes in SP, and also deemed reasonable intent was not malicious.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I served on the SEB and Advisory Committee and have also served as protest chief for several dozen National and Pro Solo events. That said, it doesn’t make me right. It really comes down to the opinion and judgement of the PC and then SEB if there’s an appeal filed. As an example, I still believe my protest against the Toyo R1R tire compound not meeting ST rules at Nationals was valid, but imo they punted it because Toyo was a significant sponsor and the can of worms it created. Funny how the tire rules changed and the issue “went away” later. Whatever.

At Nationals it’s a different deal in though. The general philosophy had been that no illegal car should finish ahead of a legal one. I can tell you a number of stories/situations I witnessed firsthand. Then again, I’ve been out of the loop for the last 5 years so it could be that the people and philosophies are different now. Not really willing to bank on that. Again, I’m only looking at from the perspective of how do I avoid losing a protest over it. It shouldn’t happen, but imo sometimes the personalities involved can potentially influence the situation.

Roflcopter and anyone else is free to do, or not do, what they want. That includes Mr DownUnderStreetTurbo driver. No offense B

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Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Just trying to be helpful Team . I used to think all race car drivers knew what they were doing and I had nothing to offer .......................... till I actually got in amongst them.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Lol, well we’re not exactly road racers here either.

Since I’ll be pulling the trigger on a new set of shocks soon I did a sanity double check just to be sure. Just using a tape measure so some small variance

Assumed 13.0” rear fender lip to rear axle center clearance static ride height.

Measured from 14.06” to 11.00” true vertical rear axle end height change to account for some droop and then compression

Measured 2.63” true rear shock length change for that axle position change.

2.63/3.06 = 0.859 Motion Ratio

assume worst case tolerance of 1/16” off the wrong way for both measurements, not likely but theoretically possible

2.69/3.00 = 0.897 assuming my tape measure and method is sloppy. Planning to stick with 0.855 rear MR.

then again, I’m not actually out there running the car so feel free to discount my pendantic input.

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Abendschein

Protesting because there's a 1/4 height difference due to motor mounts is like protesting an old ssc car in STX that had the ssc package and didn't know the replacement toe links had pillow ball bushings. On two links. Because you were too slow to make top 5 and get a trophy, and first place happens to be co driving that car.

You didn't loose because of this very singular thing. Complaint is founded and warranted, but your protest I just you being a dick. The fact that anyone is even in this territory right now is absurd.

I left the spacer ou[ when I first put the mounts on my car because it was the same height as my dead *** oem motor mounts. Wasn't until about 30 minutes later that I realized it was supposed to go on. So take that as you will.

John V

iTrader: (1)

Cars need to be legal for the class in which they compete. Claiming that pillow ball bushings aren't an advantage is certainly a valid opinion. I don't agree with it, but whatever. Incidentally, assuming you're referring to the Finger Lakes STX deal, there was no protest filed. IMO the competitors in the illegal car did the right thing and self-DSQ'd.

I've been on three protest committees at Nationals and I'm on the ****. IMO (and unofficial), if someone had installed engine mounts that lowered the engine 1/4" to 1/2" I would call that an illegal relocation of the engine relative to stock. 1/16" seems like it's within measurement error to me. Someone else might draw their line in the sand differently. Make every effort to make your car legal and the protest committee is likely to side with you. Also IMO, the right way to handle stuff like this is to approach the competitor in question and ask them if they're aware that what they've done isn't allowed before filing a protest. Last year at Finger lakes, one of the freshly-built DSP RX-8s had their front pinch welds hammered flat for tire clearance. We talked it over. There was no need to file paper.

Abendschein

@John V
To be perfectly clear: I am not advocating for anyone to break, bend, "interpret", or pervert the rules. This includes gray areas. I believe in building the car to the rules and asking for clarifications if there is any chance at something not being kosher. I entirely agree that pillow ball bushings are an advantage (there's a reason we use them over anything else when building custom machinery), as well as the rest of your statement, I just feel in this very limited quantity and particular case their advantage isn't as extreme as what was suggested. I'll admit, 1/4" is a large difference and I overstepped in my statement, but I will say my line in the sand isn't beyond that.

I am an advocate for good sportsmanship, which FLR Tour has had two different varieties of in the last two years. In your case, you showed what good sportsmanship was and the community was better for that. This year, I saw quite the exact opposite. The details really sucked, and by the end of it every official truly felt the owner had no idea of the link bushing being anything other than rubber. I want to avoid details because it'd be more like a rant and have nothing further pertinent to this discussion. The car owner and codriver did the right thing and cooperated fully and stayed professional the whole time, and that's what I'd hope to see from anyone being protested (or otherwise threatened).

As to this particular discussion, the exhaust side mount (oem and aftermarket) do exactly what Brettus said. (Anecdotal evidence here) My spacer has sunk into the delrin a bit, but still sits higher than the oem one I took out. I am putting in as big of a washer as I can to distribute that load more evenly and keep it from sinking in while maintaining height. If OEM settles in at a height less than brand new, and aftermarket are designed to sit roughly at that height permanently (like someone mentioned in a prior post), that creates a gray area I wasn't aware of before. Do I change height to match OEM drawings, or do I match the height of the part that was removed?

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

If the car isn’t legal it’s not legal. Intentional or not is irrelevant and I never look at it that way. Might as well just toss the whole rulebook otherwise. Or stick to the local scene.

Abendschein

This is where I agreed with John's take on the first step.

John V

iTrader: (1)

Aftermarket parts are going to differ from stock. It's just how things work. In the case of the mount height, I'd probably do as you suggest and put a washer in to distribute the load so the spacer doesn't sink. Maybe mill off material from the spacer to accommodate the thickness of the washer? I agree at that point any protest is someone being a jerk and that's not likely to go over well with a committee.

All of this stuff is in part why I moved to SM (plus I realized the BMW was not the right tool for the job in DSP anymore). The rules are pretty open and written to as to dissuade weenie protests.

Abendschein

I honestly thought I sucked at tightening screws because it came loose 3 times. The last time I was able to see it pushing into the delrin (night before the tour). I think that solution is the best and I'll be working on that before Toledo.

I've heard that sentiment about moving to SM a lot. Not going to lie, it's enticing.

RE-Vision

I used .870 when putting my spring package together - seemed to be pretty close as the balance of the car ended up where I had imagined.

Tamra

SM has a lot of stuff that could be protested due to grey areas; all it takes is one person to start overthinking things.

PS - i'm not going to protest anyone's motor mounts unless you're doing something blatant. Well, maybe if you beat me by .001 or something

RE-Vision

As far as I can tell all the DSP RX8s are running RX8peformance's mounts

Abendschein

My engine and diff did that! It's amazing what happens when there's nothing holding the rubber together!