Issues with braking stability at the track
05-23-2009, 12:11 PM
#1
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Issues with braking stability at the track
At the track yesterday, and I had a braking issue come up that I'd like to solve. Under high speed, straight line, threshold braking (like from 100+mph to 50 mph), the rear end of my car feels like it "walks around" a bit. The car does not like trail braking of any sort, and this loose rear end feeling can be a bit unnerving to say the least.
My car is only mildly modified - Koni yellows, RB springs, R888s - but it sees ~100 miles of track time a month. As a former longtime Stock class autocrosser, I'd like to tweak what I've got to solve the problem instead of throwing parts at the car.
Truth is, I've been driving around the problem for awhile and not really consciously thinking about it, but I was at MotorSport Ranch with some friends yesterday and one of my fellow instructors commented on it, which prompted me to focus on it a bit more.
My first thought is to add a little static toe-in to the rear wheels, because it feels like the rear wheels are toeing out under droop. Currently both front and rear are set to zero toe. The car handles quite well in all other transient conditions, except for this braking issue.
Am I heading down the right path by adding rear toe in?
My car is only mildly modified - Koni yellows, RB springs, R888s - but it sees ~100 miles of track time a month. As a former longtime Stock class autocrosser, I'd like to tweak what I've got to solve the problem instead of throwing parts at the car.
Truth is, I've been driving around the problem for awhile and not really consciously thinking about it, but I was at MotorSport Ranch with some friends yesterday and one of my fellow instructors commented on it, which prompted me to focus on it a bit more.
My first thought is to add a little static toe-in to the rear wheels, because it feels like the rear wheels are toeing out under droop. Currently both front and rear are set to zero toe. The car handles quite well in all other transient conditions, except for this braking issue.
Am I heading down the right path by adding rear toe in?
Last edited by altiain; 05-23-2009 at 12:13 PM.
05-23-2009, 12:56 PM
#2
i am running basically the same set up suspension wise---konis tein H springs and rb bars --nto1's
my car did not do as well with no toe--like you described. with a little toe at speeds below 120 by rear end is more planted and trail braking is great (running carbotech xp8's) over 120--say 135 threshold to 80 it still wants to do that a little. I need stiffer springs i do think.
what setting do you have the konis on?
OD
my car did not do as well with no toe--like you described. with a little toe at speeds below 120 by rear end is more planted and trail braking is great (running carbotech xp8's) over 120--say 135 threshold to 80 it still wants to do that a little. I need stiffer springs i do think.
what setting do you have the konis on?
OD
05-23-2009, 01:05 PM
#3
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This rear end squirrely condition at threshold braking would happen to me as well. I eased back a bit, broke sooner and a bit lighter on initial stab and the overall braking transition to trailbrake was smoother- leaving just enough brake to rotate the car at pedal lift to get back on throttle. Driving techniqe made the adjustment and lap times were the same- with less drama.
Also, consider staggering the front / rear pad compounds.
Also, consider staggering the front / rear pad compounds.
Last edited by SouthFL; 05-23-2009 at 01:07 PM.
05-23-2009, 01:08 PM
#4
I also run about a 1/32" to 1/16" toe in on the rear and found that it makes the rear less twitchy
Does the car feel neutral otherwise?
I found that the Advans were also really picky about tire pressures...if I screwed up it was much more evident than the NT01's and the Azenis I had used before
What are you running for brakes? I found with Streetable pads the brake bias seemed to bother the rears earlier than the fronts
Does the car feel neutral otherwise?
I found that the Advans were also really picky about tire pressures...if I screwed up it was much more evident than the NT01's and the Azenis I had used before
What are you running for brakes? I found with Streetable pads the brake bias seemed to bother the rears earlier than the fronts
05-23-2009, 02:34 PM
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IMHO You are reaching the point that you may need to look for more spring rate. This will help limit the weight transfer to the front and subsequent lightened rear that you are experiencing.
Even with stiff springs you will still get this under heavy braking just not quite as much and with more seat time at this level you will find that it can be beneficial to rotate the car. Good Luck.
Even with stiff springs you will still get this under heavy braking just not quite as much and with more seat time at this level you will find that it can be beneficial to rotate the car. Good Luck.
05-23-2009, 06:11 PM
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hogcar, I know stiffer springs will decrease the rear droop under braking, but dannobre is right. I like the current street/track ride & handling compromise that I've found with the car, and I really am not interested in changing that. I've suffered through streetable track cars before - right now I'm enjoying owning a trackable street car, if you understand what I'm saying.
Dannobre, I'm using the popular XP10/XP8 pad combo. The car is pretty neutral otherwise, and wears tires very evenly front to rear.
OD, my rear Konis are at 1.25 turns from full soft (which is way softer than my old B Stock days!). They are ~four years and about 40k miles old, though. I typically run the fronts (new last year & 10k miles ago) at 1.5-2.0 turns from full soft depending on the track and conditions.
Dannobre, I'm using the popular XP10/XP8 pad combo. The car is pretty neutral otherwise, and wears tires very evenly front to rear.
OD, my rear Konis are at 1.25 turns from full soft (which is way softer than my old B Stock days!). They are ~four years and about 40k miles old, though. I typically run the fronts (new last year & 10k miles ago) at 1.5-2.0 turns from full soft depending on the track and conditions.
05-23-2009, 06:11 PM
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At the track (road course), particularly with sticky tires, you should be using a less aggressive pad in the rear because the weight shift under heavy braking at high speeds with sticky tires is much more than under street use. I'm using an OEM suspension at the moment (0 toe both ends and -1.8 camber in the rear) which would tend to magnify the weight shift descired above but I am not having any of the issues at the track that you describe. Sebring is a fairly brake intensive course with one of the 4 heavy braking zones going from ~115 to 35 mph. I'm using Cobalt XR2s up front and Cobalt XR5s in the rear at the track. The XR5s were specifically designed for use in the rear. Similarly on a previous car, when I used Carbotech pads, an equally good track pad, I used XP10s up front and XP8s in the rear at Danny from Carbotech's suggestion with similar good control results. The less aggressive pad allows better modulation of the brakes and better release with trail braking.
What brake pads, tires, and camber (particularly the rear) are you're using?
What brake pads, tires, and camber (particularly the rear) are you're using?
Last edited by justjim; 05-23-2009 at 06:19 PM.
05-23-2009, 09:27 PM
#10
Coming from a racing background I'll give my general .02 cents on the handling. Springs do two things; support the weight of the car and how far the suspension can move. Shocks control the rate of how the weight is transferred dynamically.
If your rear end is loose braking into a corner, then there are a few options available for use. For those who don't want to compromise their street settings since we don't use (or at least shouldn't) speeds even near 100mph for the twisties and don't have these issues then you will have to look into adjustable or swapping out suspension.
Adjustable shocks offer a cost effective way to control the rate of transfer from the rear to the front when braking and using a shock set up known as a tie-down helps slow the rate of transfer to the front wheels to set up for the corner. On the complete opposite end of the spectrum if per say you stopped all weight from transferring to the front end you will have an issue with understeering, so it will take a bit of trial/error to find the right set up.
Adjusting your spring height is another method to raise the front end and/or lower the rear end to reduce the amount of weight that can be transferred during braking and can assist with the problem.
Lastly you can also go to as mentioned, heavier springs on the front to support the weight load during braking which will also prevent the rear from loading as much as it did initially.
Toe-in is known to be used for the front end for steering purposes for asphalt (we used toe-out for dirt for setting up with oversteering to go sideways in the corner) and alignment but I never would use it personally for the rear end since it adds more drag IMO with the tires misaligned with the road, especially when it's a RWD. Same thing goes for camber. If I was using a street car on the track I would only use camber and toe-in on the front end and leave the rear end alone personally.
Yet reading into it more deeply I find that the RX-8 does have independent rear suspension. In only this case would we consider looking into toe-in/out for the rear. The setting should be zero toe or slightly toe-in. However I think your issue with the rear end loosening up sounds more like a weight transfer issue than this.
If your rear end is loose braking into a corner, then there are a few options available for use. For those who don't want to compromise their street settings since we don't use (or at least shouldn't) speeds even near 100mph for the twisties and don't have these issues then you will have to look into adjustable or swapping out suspension.
Adjustable shocks offer a cost effective way to control the rate of transfer from the rear to the front when braking and using a shock set up known as a tie-down helps slow the rate of transfer to the front wheels to set up for the corner. On the complete opposite end of the spectrum if per say you stopped all weight from transferring to the front end you will have an issue with understeering, so it will take a bit of trial/error to find the right set up.
Adjusting your spring height is another method to raise the front end and/or lower the rear end to reduce the amount of weight that can be transferred during braking and can assist with the problem.
Lastly you can also go to as mentioned, heavier springs on the front to support the weight load during braking which will also prevent the rear from loading as much as it did initially.
Toe-in is known to be used for the front end for steering purposes for asphalt (we used toe-out for dirt for setting up with oversteering to go sideways in the corner) and alignment but I never would use it personally for the rear end since it adds more drag IMO with the tires misaligned with the road, especially when it's a RWD. Same thing goes for camber. If I was using a street car on the track I would only use camber and toe-in on the front end and leave the rear end alone personally.
Yet reading into it more deeply I find that the RX-8 does have independent rear suspension. In only this case would we consider looking into toe-in/out for the rear. The setting should be zero toe or slightly toe-in. However I think your issue with the rear end loosening up sounds more like a weight transfer issue than this.
Last edited by Vlaze; 05-23-2009 at 09:49 PM. Reason: I felt like it
05-24-2009, 08:54 AM
#14
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The car likes some rear toe-in. You will notice and like this.
The car likes a lighter rear brake pad.
The car likes a lower cg and a heavier front spring but I don't think that's an option for a street car.
Those R888 are not my favorite. We ran a set of them last weekend and they were 2 seconds off a Grand-Am Hoosier or an R6. This was a 235 tire on a 9.5" wide 17".
Your problem is well documented and you can fix it a little. To fix it completely you'll have to make more changes. When you added more front grip you brought about more of the problem. Adding more grip will bring about even more of this problem. Even with the Carbotechs (that we used to run) with a very gently initial bite, you can see the magnitude of the weight transfer issue. If you can go up in front spring rate just a little I think you'll find a fix.
Unfortunately the front springs are more of an ordeal to swap than the rears. We tune our cars with the rear springs as they are a quick and easy swap. We find a 500 front rate with SUPER DUPER stiff bars (much more stiffer than the Speedway Engineering/SpeedSource Mazda bar--the splined bar with aluminum arms). Go big on the rear toe (try 2mm in total) and see what it does. The car doesn't mind rear toe-in down the long straights as most people might think. We ran 2mm rear toe-in at Daytona and it was fine.
Increase front spring rate if you ask me but then the "daily driver" issue becomes an issue. So the real question remains: you want a street car or a track car. This always ends up being the issue if you ask me.
Happy Rotoring
The car likes a lighter rear brake pad.
The car likes a lower cg and a heavier front spring but I don't think that's an option for a street car.
Those R888 are not my favorite. We ran a set of them last weekend and they were 2 seconds off a Grand-Am Hoosier or an R6. This was a 235 tire on a 9.5" wide 17".
Your problem is well documented and you can fix it a little. To fix it completely you'll have to make more changes. When you added more front grip you brought about more of the problem. Adding more grip will bring about even more of this problem. Even with the Carbotechs (that we used to run) with a very gently initial bite, you can see the magnitude of the weight transfer issue. If you can go up in front spring rate just a little I think you'll find a fix.
Unfortunately the front springs are more of an ordeal to swap than the rears. We tune our cars with the rear springs as they are a quick and easy swap. We find a 500 front rate with SUPER DUPER stiff bars (much more stiffer than the Speedway Engineering/SpeedSource Mazda bar--the splined bar with aluminum arms). Go big on the rear toe (try 2mm in total) and see what it does. The car doesn't mind rear toe-in down the long straights as most people might think. We ran 2mm rear toe-in at Daytona and it was fine.
Increase front spring rate if you ask me but then the "daily driver" issue becomes an issue. So the real question remains: you want a street car or a track car. This always ends up being the issue if you ask me.
Happy Rotoring
05-24-2009, 09:59 AM
#15
Momentum Keeps Me Going
I would suggest justjim is onto the best solution. I run zero rear toe, but have no braking symptoms you describe. I also have other mods but.... simply using rear toe-in to bandaid the problem may likely cause excessive tire wear and upset front to rear slip angle balance.
So then what? One plausible explaination, reading the manufacturer's descriptions of your rear pad and justjim's Cobalt pad suggestion (I use the same XR5 in the rear so yes I'm biased) in the RX-8 lead to the obvious difference that the XP8 is not really made as a rear pad, but yes you could use it as an afterthought.
It is rather a high torque, high friction pad 1st and foremost, great for front axle applications, but that is the exact opposite of what you would want in the rear to keep brake bias and rear end instability in check at high decelerations.
Alternatively, the Cobalt XR5 is purpose made for a rear axle application, with less torque and friction initially, and negative (decreasing) bite during the braking cycle. This allows a better rear tire contact patch, rather than forcing excessive rear braking, and resultant tire slipage and loss of rear adhesion.
Beyond that Cobalt recommends the XR5 for rear use in the RX-8 specifically as a result of their own sponsership and feedback from RX-8 race teams as to what actually worked on track from all of their pads they had tried. For a few hundred bucks (My Front/rear XR2/XR5 pad sets were >$300) it does do what it says without affecting the rest of your setup, at least in my experience (and BTW can be left on for DD without problems, or at least I haven't found any negatives).
==================
So then what? One plausible explaination, reading the manufacturer's descriptions of your rear pad and justjim's Cobalt pad suggestion (I use the same XR5 in the rear so yes I'm biased) in the RX-8 lead to the obvious difference that the XP8 is not really made as a rear pad, but yes you could use it as an afterthought.
It is rather a high torque, high friction pad 1st and foremost, great for front axle applications, but that is the exact opposite of what you would want in the rear to keep brake bias and rear end instability in check at high decelerations.
Alternatively, the Cobalt XR5 is purpose made for a rear axle application, with less torque and friction initially, and negative (decreasing) bite during the braking cycle. This allows a better rear tire contact patch, rather than forcing excessive rear braking, and resultant tire slipage and loss of rear adhesion.
Beyond that Cobalt recommends the XR5 for rear use in the RX-8 specifically as a result of their own sponsership and feedback from RX-8 race teams as to what actually worked on track from all of their pads they had tried. For a few hundred bucks (My Front/rear XR2/XR5 pad sets were >$300) it does do what it says without affecting the rest of your setup, at least in my experience (and BTW can be left on for DD without problems, or at least I haven't found any negatives).
==================
Cobalt Friction XR5
A highly specialized low-medium torque compound designed for rear-axle applications in vehicles exhibiting rapid and high levels of weight transfer under braking (e.g. front wheel drive touring cars). Solid initial bite and a flat torque profile which transitions to a slightly negative slope during the last 60-75% of a brake zone eliminates rear lock-up.
Compound Characteristics
Temperature Range 50-1000°F (38-871°C)
Intial Bite/Attack Solid
Torque Level & Profile Low-Medium + Negative Ramp
Modulation Excellent
Release Excellent
A highly specialized low-medium torque compound designed for rear-axle applications in vehicles exhibiting rapid and high levels of weight transfer under braking (e.g. front wheel drive touring cars). Solid initial bite and a flat torque profile which transitions to a slightly negative slope during the last 60-75% of a brake zone eliminates rear lock-up.
Compound Characteristics
Temperature Range 50-1000°F (38-871°C)
Intial Bite/Attack Solid
Torque Level & Profile Low-Medium + Negative Ramp
Modulation Excellent
Release Excellent
Carbotech XP8™
A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range (200°F-1350°F+). Carbotech XP8™ is the first of our racing compounds. Outstanding initial bite at race temperatures, high coefficient of friction, excellent modulation and release characteristics. Extremely high fade resistance, very rotor friendly with 100% non-corrosive dust. Excellent as a front brake pad for lighter ITA, ITB, ITC, SRF, H4, H5, and other cars that weigh less than 2,400lbs. Perfect for novice, intermediate and advanced track day (HPDE) use with any tire, and can still be driven safely to and from the track. There are several vehicles that use XP8™ on the street, autocross, and at track day (HPDE) events. Carbotech does NOT recommended XP8™ as a daily driven street pad due to elevated levels of dust and noise. XP8™ is also a great rear brake pad for almost any race car (Spec Miata-T1/T2/CMC). XP8™ is a great compound on the front & rear of most open wheel and sports racers.
A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range (200°F-1350°F+). Carbotech XP8™ is the first of our racing compounds. Outstanding initial bite at race temperatures, high coefficient of friction, excellent modulation and release characteristics. Extremely high fade resistance, very rotor friendly with 100% non-corrosive dust. Excellent as a front brake pad for lighter ITA, ITB, ITC, SRF, H4, H5, and other cars that weigh less than 2,400lbs. Perfect for novice, intermediate and advanced track day (HPDE) use with any tire, and can still be driven safely to and from the track. There are several vehicles that use XP8™ on the street, autocross, and at track day (HPDE) events. Carbotech does NOT recommended XP8™ as a daily driven street pad due to elevated levels of dust and noise. XP8™ is also a great rear brake pad for almost any race car (Spec Miata-T1/T2/CMC). XP8™ is a great compound on the front & rear of most open wheel and sports racers.
Last edited by Spin9k; 05-24-2009 at 10:06 AM.
05-24-2009, 10:30 PM
#17
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Spin, I appreciate your feedback, but I think you are misunderstanding the problem I'm trying to describe. I'm not experiencing premature lockup or ABS engagement on the rear wheels. What I'm experiencing is a change in transient behavior of the rear wheels, which feels like a change in toe to me. The best way to describe it is that under braking it feels a bit like driving an E36 BMW with worn RTABs - the back end just gets a little squirmy.
EricMeyer & Team - I appreciate y'all's feedback. Eric, I know in my heart of hearts that the car really needs more spring rate to completely eliminate the problem, but I'm just not at a point with how I use the car right now that I'm willing to do that.
I think I'm going to try a little rear toe-in for starters, and see what impact that has on the issue, and how it affects the rest of the car's balance. Change one thing at a time, right?
EricMeyer & Team - I appreciate y'all's feedback. Eric, I know in my heart of hearts that the car really needs more spring rate to completely eliminate the problem, but I'm just not at a point with how I use the car right now that I'm willing to do that.
I think I'm going to try a little rear toe-in for starters, and see what impact that has on the issue, and how it affects the rest of the car's balance. Change one thing at a time, right?
05-25-2009, 07:33 AM
#18
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Spin, I appreciate your feedback, but I think you are misunderstanding the problem I'm trying to describe. I'm not experiencing premature lockup or ABS engagement on the rear wheels. What I'm experiencing is a change in transient behavior of the rear wheels, which feels like a change in toe to me. The best way to describe it is that under braking it feels a bit like driving an E36 BMW with worn RTABs - the back end just gets a little squirmy.
I didn't mention premature lockup or ABS engagement on the rear wheels, in fact I've never heard of an 8 doing that under any track conditions?? .... I said (in short) there's only x amount of grip in the rear under braking....put aggressive high friction pads there, you reduce rear traction available for making a planted stable rear end, encourage upward & forward rear weight transfer, or i.e., you encourage the squirmy feeling.So really, when you think about it, everyone is suggesting the same thing to you...using different words/methods... ***adjust balance/weight shift under braking*** to stop the squirming.
Of all the several methods mentioned, only toein doesn't do that. Rather it's a bandaid to try and use ***whatever straight ahead grip your tires have LEFT under braking conditions*** to try maintaining directional stability. So just saying IMO, toe-in should logically be the choice of last resort when proper chassis adustment doesn't solve the problem sufficiently (unlikely).
In my car prep, I've done all things (except toe-in) mentioned and a bit more...
1. Low friction XR5 pads
2. Cusco Zero2e coilovers, i.e., lowered CG, stiffened springs
3. Corner balance to equalize suspension forces left/right and front/rear.
4. with E-Con, i.e., electronic adjustable shocks to vary front/rear transient behavior
5. reduced any rear suspension flex under load by joining rear shock towers together w/Autoexe 4p triangulated strut braces
I didn't do all these just to solve the rear end problem, (but it was a problem at one point) but it has been adjusted out in that way. Bottom line, unless you don't want to spend money at all, I'd start by doing any of the things that have the most dynamic effect on actual braking function first, toe-in not being one.
Last edited by Spin9k; 05-25-2009 at 07:51 AM.
05-26-2009, 07:38 AM
#20
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Agree 100%. Rear toe-in (for those of you who don't know or believe "you have to run zero toe to make the car fast) is actually better for these cars WHEN THEY ARE IN THE CORNERS. Same for front toe-out to support better turn-in. This (front toe-out and rear toe-in) is a very well accepted setup for road race cars-----lots of cars----just about all the cars I can think of. Even the stick axle/live axle cars which you can purchase decambering ends for their rear axle shafts.
As always, there are many opinions on this subject from various car setups and driver skill sets. Most of the statements on this subject are true and may or may not apply to the original post/inquiry which started this thread.
Here are my personal findings:
-When you add more overall grip to your car you are likely to experience a front dive under braking and/or the rear lift. Same for shen the track has a ton of grip and/or the driver is stabbing the brakes and adding a little steering input. Same for when the rear brake pads overpower the rear. Side note: Our Team is sponsored by HAWK brakes and have tested dozens of brake combinations. This includes the DTC 70, 60, 30 (dirt track compound) and the 10. These are the new compounds that are superior to the old "Blues and Blacks". The blues and blacks are old school and my very good friend Chris Whitworth, Hawk Motorsports Manager (who I have drank beer with a dozen times and has stayed over at my house more than once) will tell you that these old compounds are inferior and the new DTC compounds are the ticket. Our team and my big azz in the driver seat have verified this. Verifyable with pad and rotor temp data as well. Running a less aggressive rear brake pad is going to help your issue period.
-Tires that are shot will magnify this issue.
-A track with poor grip will magnify this issue (Homestead is a great example) as there is very little grip.
What is being shared on this thread is a function of SEVERAL issues at work. It is no surprise that many cars/drivers have experienced the rear roll center of the cars raising up and the rears begin to lose grip. This is a function of the entire CAR SYSTEM which many new people/less experienced people on these forums don't quite understand.
Some examples of this are the numerous inquiries of "what is the best toe/camber to run?", "What is the best swaybar to run". THERE IS NO BEST system to run. You have to drive it and assess accordingly. Did anyone watch the Indy 500 this past weekend? Did they come to the track with one perfect setup that they ran all month? Of course not. This is the issue. As a driver and car increase thier capabilities, new issues arrise. Which is one reason its a good thing to have someone better than you drive your car. In my personal experience many new drivers with modifications ADAPT or TRY TO ADAPT thier driving styles to their car. Compare and contrast this to those who try things with thier car. Tooooooo many drivers are scared to make a swaybar change. Too many drivers are scared too completely unhook the swaybars at all. Guys, guys, guys.....TRY STUFF. The worst thing that can happen is that you'll learn something. Otherwise you fall into that "definition of insanity thing" that we've all heard. Try things. Buy a set of aggressive rear brake pads. Try a set of your buddies brake pads that he/she doesn't like. Swap them over a track day lunch break or in the a.m. or p.m. Try stuff.
The car is a system and you have to look at facts and gut feel to understand what your car is doing if you want to fix them, learn something or go faster.
Here's the real deal IMO:
New drivers are very uncomfortable to try things. This may be logical to them. No tools, no experience, no desire, low budget, not mechanically skilled, no time, no interest, stubborn, LACK OF SEAT TIME TO PROPERLY ASSESS (or even get hints of what the car is doing) are quite common. Improper driving style can also be a culprit.
I've got 3 co-drivers for our team and between all of us there are numerous podiums, regional championships and pro wins. Can you beleive we sometimes all don't entirely agree on what the car is doing when throwing down fast laps on a particular track. 3 of us pretty much run within .5 sec per lap. On a 100 second lap that's less than 1/2 of a percent. And we still may beleive the car may be doing different things at entry, mid-corner and exit. One thing we all typcially agree on is the aggressiveness of a brake pad. We often try different front and rear Hawk compounds (and variations of) to get the best lap times and feel (sometimes feel may over-rule a data point as it may give the driver confidence to make a tactical move using the RX8's wicked brakes. We do this by testing and trying things.
Summary:
You can see that Eric is on his soapbox again. I do this because very few new-drivers get the opportunity to hear this. Those of you that have tried things based on suggestions on this forum (or from personal dialogues with yours truly) have found wonderful rewards and increased enjoyment that this sport can bring you. Listen to those that have been there/done that. There are a couple of guys that I listen to and have experience on this forum. They are sharp guys that have lots of experience, seat time or both. Others just bought a car and went to their 5th track day (in 5 years). I would not listen so closely to thier input. Ask questions, be prepared for them to not work or not solve or partially solve your issue. Lots of dynamics at work here.
Happy Rotoring always,
Eric
PS The rumor mills are true. Our #16 car caught fire while dyno testing/tuning a few weeks ago and we have retired her. Fire trucks, huge flames and the whole sh'bang. From the firewall foward the car is fine. The chassis is toast and we are taking a break for the Koni Sports Car Challenge Series to regroup and contemplate our next move (a team's second car can be a huge revenue source to offset costs of a Koni event). We are now down to one car (and one bare RX8 shell that we are siting on to build a new car or a track car for someone). Stay tuned for more info.
05-26-2009, 09:43 AM
#21
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Thanks for your input on these topics, Eric. For track noobs like me, there's much to be garnered from your extensive track experience.
Sorry to hear about #16. A tough break for you guys. I hope nobody caught the worst of it.
Sorry to hear about #16. A tough break for you guys. I hope nobody caught the worst of it.
05-26-2009, 04:09 PM
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Thanks a ton for the information. Incredibly helpful post Eric.
I was at Lime Rock over the weekend, we were disappointed to have missed you, and I am sorry to hear about the #16, but can't wait to catch you next time.
I was at Lime Rock over the weekend, we were disappointed to have missed you, and I am sorry to hear about the #16, but can't wait to catch you next time.
