First track impressions
04-28-2007, 12:44 AM
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I have 35K miles on the car now, watch those things will all go after my warranty runs out this month....... Oh I can honestly say I am not exactly easy on the car, 200 autox runs and 2000 track miles or so?
04-28-2007, 12:55 AM
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Yes, the knockback did arrive with the fixed Wilwood calipers, but it's probably the lesser of two evils. Prior to that, with the OEM 2-pot floaters that the '06+ cars have, the brake feel was terrible and you never knew what you were going to get. At least now once they are 'pumped up', they are consistently in the same spot. It's just getting them pumped up that is annoying and/or terrifying if you forget to do it.
kinchu: Very wierd, I also had 2 WRXs and 1 STI over the last 5 years. You'll note the capital 'I' because my STI was an '06
. STI was a sweet car, and really the ultimate car for the twisties if you are just wanting to go very fast and occasionally do things that seem to defy physics. There aren't many cars in the world that can do the things the STI can do on the road. But, once on track at 10/10ths, the whole experience wilts a bit and the car reveals that it's just not quite a purpose-built sports car. An interesting aside on my STI Brembos; the decal on the caliper that says 'brembo' started out red. After a pretty intense lapping day with the local PCA, it turned black. And the caliper dust seals melted a bit. This on a basically stock STI. Maybe I'm too hard on brakes?
ZoomZoomH: Yup, that's what me and a few others here are saying. Slower car is the better car. The RX-8 provides a pure driving experience that few other cars can match. And with minimal upgrades, you can take it to the track and wring it out with no ill effects. It just doesn't work that way with most cars these days, and certainly not many in the RX-8 price range. If you seek to dominate at HPDEs, get a Z or STI and enjoy. If you want to hone your driving skills in a proper sports car with glorious amounts of sensory feedback that'll leave you grinning like a schoolgirl after every session once you learn to drive at its very high limits, the RX-8 is your car. I wouldn't buy into it myself had I not had an STI and drove an RX-8 back-to-back with it on track last year. I was going a LOT slower (first time on track with an RX-8, not my car), yet was having more fun. Just like Craig did a couple weeks ago when driving my car on track and kicking my **** in the process .
DISCLAIMER: This is not so say life in other cars isn't worth living. I don't want to sound like I'm some sort of fanatic and that only the RX-8 will do. I'm just saying it really is something special, and even if the general public hasn't noticed (and judging by sales in the USA, they haven't), it's a lot more car than the test track numbers suggest. Throw in the fact it's astoundingly practical given what it is, and it only gets better.
kinchu: Very wierd, I also had 2 WRXs and 1 STI over the last 5 years. You'll note the capital 'I' because my STI was an '06
. STI was a sweet car, and really the ultimate car for the twisties if you are just wanting to go very fast and occasionally do things that seem to defy physics. There aren't many cars in the world that can do the things the STI can do on the road. But, once on track at 10/10ths, the whole experience wilts a bit and the car reveals that it's just not quite a purpose-built sports car. An interesting aside on my STI Brembos; the decal on the caliper that says 'brembo' started out red. After a pretty intense lapping day with the local PCA, it turned black. And the caliper dust seals melted a bit. This on a basically stock STI. Maybe I'm too hard on brakes?ZoomZoomH: Yup, that's what me and a few others here are saying. Slower car is the better car
. The RX-8 provides a pure driving experience that few other cars can match. And with minimal upgrades, you can take it to the track and wring it out with no ill effects. It just doesn't work that way with most cars these days, and certainly not many in the RX-8 price range. If you seek to dominate at HPDEs, get a Z or STI and enjoy. If you want to hone your driving skills in a proper sports car with glorious amounts of sensory feedback that'll leave you grinning like a schoolgirl after every session once you learn to drive at its very high limits, the RX-8 is your car. I wouldn't buy into it myself had I not had an STI and drove an RX-8 back-to-back with it on track last year. I was going a LOT slower (first time on track with an RX-8, not my car), yet was having more fun. Just like Craig did a couple weeks ago when driving my car on track and kicking my **** in the process . DISCLAIMER: This is not so say life in other cars isn't worth living. I don't want to sound like I'm some sort of fanatic and that only the RX-8 will do. I'm just saying it really is something special, and even if the general public hasn't noticed (and judging by sales in the USA, they haven't), it's a lot more car than the test track numbers suggest. Throw in the fact it's astoundingly practical given what it is, and it only gets better.
04-29-2007, 10:05 PM
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OK, I'm going to chime in now. I'm Craig, the one who Phil mentioned.
At Mid America Motorplex (MAM), the Z and 8 were only about 3 seconds apart. I'm pretty sure I had another 1 second in me in the 8 with another session or two, so we'll call them 2-3 seconds a lap apart. I'm pretty confident I was extracting as much as I could (emphasis on "I", as a faster driver no doubt could have done better) from the Z for the day.
On the other tracks we visit, the Z is more seconds per lap faster - MAM is friendlier to the RX-8 than other track, as there are no uphill climbs out of slow corners like those at Hallett or Heartland Park, our other frequent haunts. MAM is literally flat, no elevation changes, and cars spend a lot of time cornering or transitioning. It's a track that rewards cars that are balanced and that can rotate effectively.
That is a key strength of the RX-8 - it can rotate on command. The Z requires a lot of patience to hustle it around a track effectively. You spend a lot of time waiting for the ship to turn, focusing on maximizing the amount of time you spend accelerating since that car is all about the time spent on the throttle. But, the cornering is never really all that enjoyable since you're mostly understeering. And, as Phil mentioned, the brakes kind of suck from the factory, and with the DPE BBK on it they are much improved but the knockback is ever-present and one has to keep an eye on that, which can take a little bit of the fun out of it.
By contrast, the RX-8 is all about brakes and cornering. What's the most fun part of driving on track? Braking and cornering!!! Anyone can put their foot down and accelerate down the straight. But, the RX-8 relishes and devours corners, as opposed to merely tolerating them as in the Z. I would say that I can get through a fair number of corners nearly as fast in the Z as in Phil's RX-8, but I can't get on the gas as early and it's not nearly as fun. You don't get to throw the Z into a corner like you do the 8. You have to gently and patiently bend it into a corner in an effort not to overwhelm the front tires. With the RX-8, you can throw it at a corner and enjoy the balancing act all the way through it.
Add to that brakes that are always effective (with proper pads and fluid) and a pedal that's always where you left it (unlike the pedal in a Z, WRX, STI, etc.), dual oil coolers to keep oil temps in check, a reasonably effective radiator, built-in brake cooling, and (here's the kicker) loads of alignment adjustability from the factory unlike the Z, WRX/STI, etc., and the RX-8 makes for a car that is really built for track duty.
The Z will be the first to overheat in my experience, will be the hardest to keep brakes under it, will overheat its tires quickest, has a less effective diff, has terrible brake feel, has loads of rubber bushings between you and the road to cut down on driving feel, and generally just doesn't feel all that inspiring to drive on track. In a Z, you coax it around the track for the quickest lap. In an RX-8, when you drive it as fast as you can, you feel like you have really wrung the neck of the car for the best it can do.
The RX-8 is just a pure driver's car, rewarding, communicative, and responsive. The Z, STI, etc., may be faster, but they aren't more enjoyable on track in my opinion (and I've driven a Z, Phil's well-modified WRX, and Phil's moderately modified STI on track enough to know). There's very good reason that my next car will likely be the same as my previous car, another RX-8. It's just a whole lot more fun to drive on track (for me, anyway) than a Z. I don't care about being slower than I am in the Z, but I do care about grinning like an idiot when I come off track, and that's what the RX-8 offers. After driving Phil's RX-8 (which is very well setup, I should add) at MAM, I was ready to go trade the Z in for the first RX-8 I found when I got back home. Sure, I put a few seconds a lap on him in the Z, but I didn't come off track in the Z with the same kind of high that I did from driving the RX-8. That's the same way I felt each time I came off track in my own RX-8. I miss that feeling.
Ultimately it boils down to this, in my opinion: are you more about the end or the means? If lap times and track domination are your thing, the RX-8 isn't your car. If you're more about extracting the most enjoyment from each lap, with the least amount of fuss and bother and work and modification to your street car, I would bet there are few cars out there that are better than the RX-8.
At Mid America Motorplex (MAM), the Z and 8 were only about 3 seconds apart. I'm pretty sure I had another 1 second in me in the 8 with another session or two, so we'll call them 2-3 seconds a lap apart. I'm pretty confident I was extracting as much as I could (emphasis on "I", as a faster driver no doubt could have done better) from the Z for the day.
On the other tracks we visit, the Z is more seconds per lap faster - MAM is friendlier to the RX-8 than other track, as there are no uphill climbs out of slow corners like those at Hallett or Heartland Park, our other frequent haunts. MAM is literally flat, no elevation changes, and cars spend a lot of time cornering or transitioning. It's a track that rewards cars that are balanced and that can rotate effectively.
That is a key strength of the RX-8 - it can rotate on command. The Z requires a lot of patience to hustle it around a track effectively. You spend a lot of time waiting for the ship to turn, focusing on maximizing the amount of time you spend accelerating since that car is all about the time spent on the throttle. But, the cornering is never really all that enjoyable since you're mostly understeering. And, as Phil mentioned, the brakes kind of suck from the factory, and with the DPE BBK on it they are much improved but the knockback is ever-present and one has to keep an eye on that, which can take a little bit of the fun out of it.
By contrast, the RX-8 is all about brakes and cornering. What's the most fun part of driving on track? Braking and cornering!!! Anyone can put their foot down and accelerate down the straight. But, the RX-8 relishes and devours corners, as opposed to merely tolerating them as in the Z. I would say that I can get through a fair number of corners nearly as fast in the Z as in Phil's RX-8, but I can't get on the gas as early and it's not nearly as fun. You don't get to throw the Z into a corner like you do the 8. You have to gently and patiently bend it into a corner in an effort not to overwhelm the front tires. With the RX-8, you can throw it at a corner and enjoy the balancing act all the way through it.
Add to that brakes that are always effective (with proper pads and fluid) and a pedal that's always where you left it (unlike the pedal in a Z, WRX, STI, etc.), dual oil coolers to keep oil temps in check, a reasonably effective radiator, built-in brake cooling, and (here's the kicker) loads of alignment adjustability from the factory unlike the Z, WRX/STI, etc., and the RX-8 makes for a car that is really built for track duty.
The Z will be the first to overheat in my experience, will be the hardest to keep brakes under it, will overheat its tires quickest, has a less effective diff, has terrible brake feel, has loads of rubber bushings between you and the road to cut down on driving feel, and generally just doesn't feel all that inspiring to drive on track. In a Z, you coax it around the track for the quickest lap. In an RX-8, when you drive it as fast as you can, you feel like you have really wrung the neck of the car for the best it can do.
The RX-8 is just a pure driver's car, rewarding, communicative, and responsive. The Z, STI, etc., may be faster, but they aren't more enjoyable on track in my opinion (and I've driven a Z, Phil's well-modified WRX, and Phil's moderately modified STI on track enough to know). There's very good reason that my next car will likely be the same as my previous car, another RX-8. It's just a whole lot more fun to drive on track (for me, anyway) than a Z. I don't care about being slower than I am in the Z, but I do care about grinning like an idiot when I come off track, and that's what the RX-8 offers. After driving Phil's RX-8 (which is very well setup, I should add) at MAM, I was ready to go trade the Z in for the first RX-8 I found when I got back home. Sure, I put a few seconds a lap on him in the Z, but I didn't come off track in the Z with the same kind of high that I did from driving the RX-8. That's the same way I felt each time I came off track in my own RX-8. I miss that feeling.
Ultimately it boils down to this, in my opinion: are you more about the end or the means? If lap times and track domination are your thing, the RX-8 isn't your car. If you're more about extracting the most enjoyment from each lap, with the least amount of fuss and bother and work and modification to your street car, I would bet there are few cars out there that are better than the RX-8.
04-29-2007, 10:18 PM
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Being an owner of a Z and 8, I agree with 75% of the things you said. The Z is faster, harder on equipment and have less adjustments than the RX-8. At the same time, I don't think they are less fun. They are just different. The Z can eliminate some of the understeer with the proper tires and driving. I don't think the Z is much slower than the RX-8 at mid corner. If anything, the 8 probably has a jump into the turn. You can say all you want about superior braking (I know they are better, but not htat much), but the faster entry speed has something to do with the higher straightaway speed the Z pulls down the straight. Other than overheating the brakes, I think the 8 will be a more likely candidate to have overheating issue than the Z. The exhaust will get so hot that it can start melting stuff!!!
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
OK, I'm going to chime in now. I'm Craig, the one who Phil mentioned.
At Mid America Motorplex (MAM), the Z and 8 were only about 3 seconds apart. I'm pretty sure I had another 1 second in me in the 8 with another session or two, so we'll call them 2-3 seconds a lap apart. I'm pretty confident I was extracting as much as I could (emphasis on "I", as a faster driver no doubt could have done better) from the Z for the day.
On the other tracks we visit, the Z is more seconds per lap faster - MAM is friendlier to the RX-8 than other track, as there are no uphill climbs out of slow corners like those at Hallett or Heartland Park, our other frequent haunts. MAM is literally flat, no elevation changes, and cars spend a lot of time cornering or transitioning. It's a track that rewards cars that are balanced and that can rotate effectively.
That is a key strength of the RX-8 - it can rotate on command. The Z requires a lot of patience to hustle it around a track effectively. You spend a lot of time waiting for the ship to turn, focusing on maximizing the amount of time you spend accelerating since that car is all about the time spent on the throttle. But, the cornering is never really all that enjoyable since you're mostly understeering. And, as Phil mentioned, the brakes kind of suck from the factory, and with the DPE BBK on it they are much improved but the knockback is ever-present and one has to keep an eye on that, which can take a little bit of the fun out of it.
By contrast, the RX-8 is all about brakes and cornering. What's the most fun part of driving on track? Braking and cornering!!! Anyone can put their foot down and accelerate down the straight. But, the RX-8 relishes and devours corners, as opposed to merely tolerating them as in the Z. I would say that I can get through a fair number of corners nearly as fast in the Z as in Phil's RX-8, but I can't get on the gas as early and it's not nearly as fun. You don't get to throw the Z into a corner like you do the 8. You have to gently and patiently bend it into a corner in an effort not to overwhelm the front tires. With the RX-8, you can throw it at a corner and enjoy the balancing act all the way through it.
Add to that brakes that are always effective (with proper pads and fluid) and a pedal that's always where you left it (unlike the pedal in a Z, WRX, STI, etc.), dual oil coolers to keep oil temps in check, a reasonably effective radiator, built-in brake cooling, and (here's the kicker) loads of alignment adjustability from the factory unlike the Z, WRX/STI, etc., and the RX-8 makes for a car that is really built for track duty.
The Z will be the first to overheat in my experience, will be the hardest to keep brakes under it, will overheat its tires quickest, has a less effective diff, has terrible brake feel, has loads of rubber bushings between you and the road to cut down on driving feel, and generally just doesn't feel all that inspiring to drive on track. In a Z, you coax it around the track for the quickest lap. In an RX-8, when you drive it as fast as you can, you feel like you have really wrung the neck of the car for the best it can do.
The RX-8 is just a pure driver's car, rewarding, communicative, and responsive. The Z, STI, etc., may be faster, but they aren't more enjoyable on track in my opinion (and I've driven a Z, Phil's well-modified WRX, and Phil's moderately modified STI on track enough to know). There's very good reason that my next car will likely be the same as my previous car, another RX-8. It's just a whole lot more fun to drive on track (for me, anyway) than a Z. I don't care about being slower than I am in the Z, but I do care about grinning like an idiot when I come off track, and that's what the RX-8 offers. After driving Phil's RX-8 (which is very well setup, I should add) at MAM, I was ready to go trade the Z in for the first RX-8 I found when I got back home. Sure, I put a few seconds a lap on him in the Z, but I didn't come off track in the Z with the same kind of high that I did from driving the RX-8. That's the same way I felt each time I came off track in my own RX-8. I miss that feeling.
Ultimately it boils down to this, in my opinion: are you more about the end or the means? If lap times and track domination are your thing, the RX-8 isn't your car. If you're more about extracting the most enjoyment from each lap, with the least amount of fuss and bother and work and modification to your street car, I would bet there are few cars out there that are better than the RX-8.
At Mid America Motorplex (MAM), the Z and 8 were only about 3 seconds apart. I'm pretty sure I had another 1 second in me in the 8 with another session or two, so we'll call them 2-3 seconds a lap apart. I'm pretty confident I was extracting as much as I could (emphasis on "I", as a faster driver no doubt could have done better) from the Z for the day.
On the other tracks we visit, the Z is more seconds per lap faster - MAM is friendlier to the RX-8 than other track, as there are no uphill climbs out of slow corners like those at Hallett or Heartland Park, our other frequent haunts. MAM is literally flat, no elevation changes, and cars spend a lot of time cornering or transitioning. It's a track that rewards cars that are balanced and that can rotate effectively.
That is a key strength of the RX-8 - it can rotate on command. The Z requires a lot of patience to hustle it around a track effectively. You spend a lot of time waiting for the ship to turn, focusing on maximizing the amount of time you spend accelerating since that car is all about the time spent on the throttle. But, the cornering is never really all that enjoyable since you're mostly understeering. And, as Phil mentioned, the brakes kind of suck from the factory, and with the DPE BBK on it they are much improved but the knockback is ever-present and one has to keep an eye on that, which can take a little bit of the fun out of it.
By contrast, the RX-8 is all about brakes and cornering. What's the most fun part of driving on track? Braking and cornering!!! Anyone can put their foot down and accelerate down the straight. But, the RX-8 relishes and devours corners, as opposed to merely tolerating them as in the Z. I would say that I can get through a fair number of corners nearly as fast in the Z as in Phil's RX-8, but I can't get on the gas as early and it's not nearly as fun. You don't get to throw the Z into a corner like you do the 8. You have to gently and patiently bend it into a corner in an effort not to overwhelm the front tires. With the RX-8, you can throw it at a corner and enjoy the balancing act all the way through it.
Add to that brakes that are always effective (with proper pads and fluid) and a pedal that's always where you left it (unlike the pedal in a Z, WRX, STI, etc.), dual oil coolers to keep oil temps in check, a reasonably effective radiator, built-in brake cooling, and (here's the kicker) loads of alignment adjustability from the factory unlike the Z, WRX/STI, etc., and the RX-8 makes for a car that is really built for track duty.
The Z will be the first to overheat in my experience, will be the hardest to keep brakes under it, will overheat its tires quickest, has a less effective diff, has terrible brake feel, has loads of rubber bushings between you and the road to cut down on driving feel, and generally just doesn't feel all that inspiring to drive on track. In a Z, you coax it around the track for the quickest lap. In an RX-8, when you drive it as fast as you can, you feel like you have really wrung the neck of the car for the best it can do.
The RX-8 is just a pure driver's car, rewarding, communicative, and responsive. The Z, STI, etc., may be faster, but they aren't more enjoyable on track in my opinion (and I've driven a Z, Phil's well-modified WRX, and Phil's moderately modified STI on track enough to know). There's very good reason that my next car will likely be the same as my previous car, another RX-8. It's just a whole lot more fun to drive on track (for me, anyway) than a Z. I don't care about being slower than I am in the Z, but I do care about grinning like an idiot when I come off track, and that's what the RX-8 offers. After driving Phil's RX-8 (which is very well setup, I should add) at MAM, I was ready to go trade the Z in for the first RX-8 I found when I got back home. Sure, I put a few seconds a lap on him in the Z, but I didn't come off track in the Z with the same kind of high that I did from driving the RX-8. That's the same way I felt each time I came off track in my own RX-8. I miss that feeling.
Ultimately it boils down to this, in my opinion: are you more about the end or the means? If lap times and track domination are your thing, the RX-8 isn't your car. If you're more about extracting the most enjoyment from each lap, with the least amount of fuss and bother and work and modification to your street car, I would bet there are few cars out there that are better than the RX-8.
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