Highway8

iTrader: (11)

And how about the driver? Probably on the phone with his insurnace company claiming it happened on the street.

Modern cars with air bags, high strength steel and crumple zones are safer then race cars were for a long time. I have seen more car accidents on public roads to and from the race track then I see during HPDE. Never seen anyone transported from the track to a hospital during an HPDE.

d walker

I must be the harbinger of bad tidings then, because I believe about a third of the events I have been to (admittedly a lot) there has been a lifeflight involved.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

i can say that at the track events I have been in and seen over the past 8 years that there has never been a lifeflight called on a hpde driver. There has never been a medical unit that had to respond to an off. Race drivers-unfortunity so-- i agree.
If that much mayhem is going on in that hpde program--people are not being instructed correctly.
I feel safer on the track in an hpde class ( in my area) than I do on the interstate.
Sorry d--can't agree on this one.
Maybe you have just had the bad luck of seeing some bad hpde programs?
Now I have wittnessed some hpde drivers being evicted from the track , becaise they wouldnt listen and i have seen licensed race drivers--driving in hpde and forget who they are on the track with. The licensed drivers were warned and it doesnt happen again. They were drive bomb passing and riding to close to the rear bumper of others etc.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Dwalker, there are alternate possibilities in reality outside of what you believe to be true that are still actually true.

Everyone here can find examples of **** poor dangerously run HPDEs. Everyone here can also find examples of wrecks. The same can be said for full racing as well. If your arguement against HPDEs is entirely encompassed by your examples (a driver that didn't listen and had an off, and another driver that lost control at an unfortunate point on the track) the I would ask you to explain how either scenario would be different if the cars were more closely set up for threshold driving? If we added 3 to 20 more cars in the immediate vicinity of the errant driver?

Have you ever encountered a race driver whom wasn't listening? Who wasn't safe? We can find those examples too. How about a race driver that lost control and destroyed their car in a way that causes issues for everyone else? We can find examples there too. Hell, just look at the suspension failure on Juan Montoya's car in the Daytona 500 the caused a 200 gallon jet fuel fire on the track.

You have something against HPDEs, but the reasons you are giving are hollow, and no different than what actual racing can produce. This is not rational. Dismissing rational arguements is short sighted with blinders on, usually because of something that deeply impacted you.

I'm not trying to get you to change you opinion.

But if you want people to understand your point of view, you have to use rational arguements. And you aren't.

Highway8

iTrader: (11)

This is the way I look at it. All forms of driving are dangerous, just look at the stats on how many people die on the roads each year. Statistically racing in even the safest race car is more dangerous than driving to the grocery store. HPDE when done properly in safe street cars is more dangerous than driving that same street car to the grocery store.

However here is my the key point. All forms of racing and HPDE are much safer than driving that same car at high speeds on windy public roads and most would drive too fast on public roads if HPDE were not available and that would endanger our own lives and the lives of others.

The safety of each HPDE depends greatly on the track, the organiations rules and mostly the drivers.

And really this is all off topic. The original post was about getting into racing, and I think we can all agree that a HPDE is not a way to get into racing. At best an HPDE is a way to wet your pallet and get the feel for driving fast on a track.

dmitrik4

iTrader: (5)

Maybe you should find better organizations to run with. I strongly doubt 1/3 of SCCA or NASA HPDEs involve a medical helicopter.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

I've been involved in corner working, SCCA club racing and more recently HPDE/lapping days for over 30 yrs. The only time you may see a helicopter is on a Pro weekend. Sometimes, not even then. Most of the medical emergencies I've seen at the race track are for pre-existing conditions, like heart attacks. I've never seen anyone hurt on a HPDE weekend.

40w8

Now that there's a beat fest on Walker, I'll give my share.

I made a very interesting thread on how I measured tire pressures with the added influence of 1-1/2 years of tire aging to get MY best feeling of neutral on a stock GT 8.

He ranted about how neutral is more dangerous than oversteer. WTF?

I'm more likely to be hit by a car in San Antonio than tangle with one on H2R track.

I'm not feeling any of his advice if all he can do is tear down others ideas.

Spin9k

Just for chuckles, since we’re a bit off topic anyway, here's my experience of several years running HPDE's, yea those events that Highway8 describes as "at best a way to get a feel for driving fast on track".

First things first - baloney! Anyone showing up at an HPDE 'looking to go fast', is an idiot and are more often than not a novice with their fancy new car or there w/all their bros standing in the pits watching. They come and they leave, it usually ends their. Why? One, they don't what they want - they don't get to drive fast - they are novice after all. But moreover, it's too much work, takes concentrated mental and physical effort, money, time, and study to improve your car, your control of it, and your understanding (and yes, the fun) of the skill of driving it. Coming to an HPDE event to "drive fast on the track" makes you a showoff, a grandstander, merely a juvenile thrill seeker... And little more, except potentially dangerous as well. Generally they're kept in one piece, along with their cars.

The people I've seen that mess up are different - like old timers with old timer equipment that breaks and crashes, new timers (young and old) who shoot up thru the classes not learning much - until they crash their or their daddy's shiny car, and crashes caused by instructors not keeping the reins tight enough, letting students drive beyond their skill level. Or Instructors or advanced drivers hanging their race preped cars over the edge a bit to far.

I've seen Ferraris turned into scrap metal pile @100mph in a couple seconds, Porsches rolled into a cigar, Audis bashed into barriers, and 4-wheel drive Evos skidding all over everywhere. I've seen Subarus plowing up off-track dirt, and BMWs Bam-ing into Armco. The only thing I've never seen is anyone being hurt, or someone being carted off in an ambulance.

So sure HPDE **can be dangerous**, but all 'calculated risk' activities people engage in are. I would say driving a race car is dangerous. But not having a race preped car doesn't mean you aren't aware / understand the risks you ARE taking. It means you SHOULD prepare as best you are able and with serious intent, drive and act responsibly, not like an A-hole - be careful and aware of yourself, others, and your situation and surroundings, and enjoy - sinced it is NOT racing.

In fact, that what HPDE's are all about - not learning to race, not "just driving fast", but learning a sport, a skill, and the enjoyment of perfecting it over time.

40w8

yeah, I've been driving curves fast with Mazda rotaries since the 70's.

Went off a few slow speed corners, but hot dogged when away from other cars, and never needed body work.

I enjoyed learning to get the car to drive well, not necessarily fast, so I never looked at it as "racing" or "beating someone".

I'm running 225/40r18 Hankook V12's on my 8 because I want to feel the handling, not burn rubber and money on sticky tires or make over 1g on corners.

I'm not even saying I'm good at driving a high horse car, and I bought the RX8 because of the smooth handling, etc.

Those expensive, and high horse cars can test the limit of tires and drivers, but the 8 is a ***** cat in comparison.

d walker

No ones beating on me here, if anything I am getting a chuckle from people arguing about safety without safety equipment.

And your still wrong and do not understand anything about vehicle dynamics. And feel free to ignore my advice, after all, I am just some guy on the internet. Its not like I race RX-8's or anything.





I have seen a lot of stupidity at the track in race and street cars. You would have to hand over a large wad of cash to go me out in a NASA HPDE, especially the "higher" levels. Trying to make the argument that because the drivers have more experience yada yada BS. The fact they are going faster and are trying to "beat" their laptime just adds to the fun. Until they hit a wall or another car.

And you make a valid point, its not usually the new guy out in the family BMWobbly thats the issue, its the guy out there in his HPDE/drift/autocrosser held together with a bunch of craigslist cast-offs that were worn out when he got them and no better now. Or the "instructor" (saw this happen personally) who wants to show a car owner what the new Porsche/Ferrari/R8/ etc. can do and overdrives the car into the tire barrier. Ambulance required, broken ankle as a result.
The next best is the AWD guy who for whatever reason believes AWD makes him invincible on the track. Watched a nice Subaru roll a couple of times because of this. Driver shaken, not stirred, but definitely stiff for the next few days.

As I said previously, I assume you (the global you, not you specifically) are adults and can make your own decisions, so feel free to do whatever you want.

40w8

^You've got that holier than thou attitude that fired up criticism of you!

I don't even have to know anything about a part on a car to use it properly.

I can listen to advice of others that have already spent lots of money on a car like Eric Meyers that will give ideas instead of attitude.

I think I was already to old for racing by the time I was 18; lots of guys that win are smaller built, won in Karts by the age of 10, and threw $ at it.

As to safety, itsn't it nice that those Evo guys found out about the spinning problem at the track instead of on the street?

I don't worry about me losing control because I only drive stable cars like the 8.

I would never try to drive some of those rear engine oversteering cars, and I'd be hard to get a Vette to feel the neutral I can play with on the 8.

I did get my 8 to the feel I like on a stock 8 so bite me!

d walker

There is so much wrong in what you posted that I cannot even begin to help you.

The first is a rear engine Porsche does not oversteer naturally, it understeers, and pushes like a pig. It takes a lot of careful adjustment to get them to do otherwise. That comment alone is pretty scary.

Eric and I are friends, but we are different people and if you have not noticed I am fairly blunt and do not have time to beat around the bush with niceties. Its just easier to say what needs said and move on. I have been working on my tact, but its a process. Thanks for your input, duly noted. BTW, I give solid information based on my findings, from what _I_ do, from what the data shows me, and from what the results are, mixed in with some opinion from experience. I have spent a lot of years perfecting my art and while no, I do not always give out specifics, I will lead you in the right direction. You on the other hand are simply taking everything personally and getting bent when someone dis-agrees with you. I personally do not care if you take your "neutered" 8 out and putter away on track days here and there, but when you ask for input and its given and you choose to argue about it based on BS, no ones going to help you. Which is what happened in your thread that disappeared. I gave you input on what you should be looking for, and you came back with absolute garbage. So I no linger care to help you. That simple.

I am not much worried about you losing control either, because I have doubts about you being at the sharp end of the cars ability.

bse50

This proves how full of **** you are. I have driven dozens of porsches, from shitty cayman s to the latest gt3 rs.
Well, every rear engined\rwd porsches oversteer when pitched around corners.
every one of them. 991 (993\6\7), 964 etc.
Middle engine ones (shitster\layman s) have a different tendency.

40w8

Walker,

Man you are so full of yourself!

I NEVER ASKED ANYONE IN THAT THREAD FOR HELP!

Many people throw around air pressures on tires which is worthless info without ambient temp and amount of pavement scrubbing going on.

I detailed how even laymen like me can improve handling for safer control since the question is asked a lot.

I suspect you might be dyslexic, since you seem to turn everything backwards.

DOES ANYONE HERE ACTUALLY THINK A PORSCHE 911, ETC. DOESN'T OVERSTEER AS IT'S MAIN CHARACTERISTIC?

d walker

I knew you had no idea what you're talking about. Every Porsche since the 80'a has been set up to understeer like a pig from the factory. Sure, you can drive like an idiot and get it to oversteer, but us not its main characteristic, and in fact notnever has been. Lift throttle oversteer is a completely separate trait and is driver induced. Because a Porsche is so light in the front end its tendency is to push, or understeer, through most corners. You can counteract this as a driver by using the brakes to load the front of the car and make it turn.
If your over driving the car and overbearing you will unweight the rear causing it to get light and oversteer and possibly spin.
I swear its like being a mythbuster around here. Next your going to try and tell me Camaro understeer because all the weight is over the front tires and its the natural tendency.

bse50

Push the gas or lift it, the porsche oversteers if you're actually driving it outside of an autocross course.
You don't have to tell me what it means to drive a rear engined car, i have my share of experience with them. The car I learnt to drive on is a Mid-engine\rwd italian car. Guess what, it oversteers as well!
You're probably confusing rwd and awd porsche models.
Porsches are used all around europe to teach how to control oversteer for a reason. They oversteer!

You should probably jump on a 4l 997 gt3 rs, set the aids and suspension setup from the cockpit and enjoy proving yourself wrong.

d walker

I guess I should have mentioned that prior to racing Mazda I ran Porsche race cars, won a fair amount with them too. I think my mistake is thinking I am talking to drivers and those who want to understand and do better. We are likelyto be running 911's next season although I secretly am eyeing the SLS AMG factory race car. We will see.

bse50

What has a porsche race car got to do with a street car? A race car can be set up to do whatever you want it to, that's my experience with the porsche cup (996\997) and cayman trophy.
You're so full of yourself i'm bored of replying.

AZ R3

He only drives race prepped cars. Even to Wal Mart. Street cars don't have any safety equipment.

40w8