bse50

That's all I was saying from the beginning. Drivers pay to drive. Be it sponsors covering them or rich gentlemen that doesn't matter.
I think I know how the real reality (Fia...) works.

d walker

There are no 100K miatas. My cars are competitive, we lead at St Pete last season and were able to qualify top10 at Mid-ohio and manage a 6th at Miller last season (even with the turbo cars not properly adjusted) so I think its all good. The RX-8 could be very competetive at Daytona etc. if a team wanted to go out and run one- I almost did.

Competitive racecars have more to do with the synergy of team, driver, and car than the badge on the trunk.

bse50

Competitive cars are the ones that are supported by the factory and with big budget teams. Period.
That's why BMWs generally have to run with ballasts everywhere in europe... there's ///M behind them.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

You list isn't factoring in quite a few high dollar items that could easily push the number into that range. Heck, an engine rebuild for a STREET Miata can run $15k by itself. And engine development is a MUST for a Miata to run in the ST class. Assuming that they already know what is needed, it's still a full tear-down and build up to get the engine to desired specs, and I'd bet they aren't using parts from consumer sources. I'd think that $20-$25k for an engine build for a competitive (and winning) race team (running NC Miatas) is entirely believable.

I looked up the pricing of the BOSCH ECUs, and the top line one is 21,000 euro, or about $27,000.

So that is ~$45k-$50k for those two items. Add the rest of your list for another ~$18k ($22k minus $3k car and $400 ecu) and you are at $73k to $78k. Add a NEW Miata for $32k, and you are sitting at $105k to $110k. They may go for used cars, though I SERIOUSLY doubt they will buy a street-wrecked car. Way too many unknowns. So knocking ~$10k off the top is reasonable if they don't buy brand new, or can get their new Miata's directly from Mazda without VINs or road legal worries (as they usually do).


Again, not discounting what you know and what your experience has been, but that doesn't disprove what I'm saying.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

didnt mean to insult you when I was explaining about the different classes in hpde. I am aware of your business and it has a good rep around my circles. I was NOT aware one of your Rx8's could be rented for the w/e for 2K. I was thinking it was a little more than that.

Appreciate you sharing your views and we do agree on one point. There can never be too much safety equipment in the cars ( or the track). Believe you me when I am running Road Atlanta in my little modified one ( but no cage) I am NOT driving 10/10. A more open track like Roebling Road I would drive a little harder IN SOME AREAS ONLY.
Little T? That track scares the heck out of me--I drove it once and once only.
I have seen people who drive fairly well go on to Time trial without the proper safety equipment in their car. They are idiots. They get the red mist and dont listen. God be with them.

Budget racing can be done--usually at the club level though. You will always spend more money than you thought. At least partner up with someone.

How many hours are you getting out of your Rx8 engines at the power level (225rwhp) you posted? I would love to see those headers you have? Did you have to modify the subframe any to install them?

d walker

You did not get the point- you do not HAVE to use the Bosch ECU and I DO NOT and my cars are faster than cars that do- so PLEASE stop pointing out that you HAVE to spend 20K on and ecu- its just not true and just a little more kool-aid.

25K for a miata engine in grand am might be believable, but at that pont why not run GS, where a competitive Ford, Dodge, or Chevy motor is 17-20K? And I could have just as easily bought as blown engine street car or theft recovery for the same or less. I chose a light front hit because it was cheap and nothing major was damaged.

My Challenger was built from a BIW- it was $4500, total cost on that GS/GTS car was 85K. An all- aluminum race motor from Carducci (Factory Dodge Race Engines) was 17.5K with the dry sump pump from Dailey.

When I ran Porsches, we spent 180K for the car then another 300K to get it ready, but WTF does that have to do with fielding a competitive RX-8?

Please consider that I do this for a living and do not drink the kool-aid at all, nor am I out to impress anyone.
Kinda sounds like you think that you have to spend 100K plus on a car to go racing, and thats cool if you want to, but I dont have to and I do feild competitive cars.

See you at Miller?

d walker

Wrong, but keep drinking the kool-aid. When I was with another team we routinely beat the "factory" team, and spent less money.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I didn't disagree with you at any point, and even reinforced your comments.

As often as it's clear that people don't read, it's never really any less frustrating.

d walker

2K for a local club event probably is on the low side, but there is no reason to kill someone with a high fee.

Agreed

Also a good idea. partnering up allows for a second set of hands, a little help with the budget, etc. and can really work well. Obviously you have to choose the right partner, like anything else in life.

The engine we are removing RIGHT now has been in the car since Tom Neel ran it. I am fairly certian he had at least 4 club race weekends on the engine, if not more, he could not remember.
Since I purchased the car it has done:
NASA enduro and double race weekend at RA
St Pete GP in WC, double race
NASA double weekend at HPR
Test day with JD Mobley, HPR
Miller GP with WC, single
Mid-Ohio with WC, double race
Test day with S Rickli, C Davis, and Mobley at PPIR
Test Day at HPR (crashed, right front)
Test day at HPR, T Wright
SCCA Comp school and double race weekend, PPIR
NASA Double, PPIR

and the motor still makes 225whp. I am changing it ONLY because I happen to have a fresh one sitting here, no other reason. It will go into the spares package as a known good spare until I have time to freshen it up.

I can send you pics of my exhaust but will not post any.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

understood.
thats a fair amount of hours on the engine and it continues to make that power level.
PM sent.

bse50

I never saw you in the pits though. Did you race in any FIA sanctioned race? Itcc?

Stop saying bullshit about being ahead of cars running Bosch pcm too. 300$ of Racing beat reflash without even a ******* dyno tune. Come on.
Go back to racing pedal cars!

d walker

Your serious?

Ok tough guy-

http://youtu.be/wqgK5MU4gT4

Thats my car, running second, in front of my buddy Eric Meyers car which is using the Bosch ECU, at the St pete GP, passing Tristan Herbert for first and being hit and taken out. That impact broke the rear wheel and put us out. The following day we had a 10-car lead when fuel transfer pump issues as a result of that impact caused us to retire the car rather than risk destroying it.



Thats me at Mid-0 last year, the balding guy with the Mazda shirt on.

EDIT- Theres no bullshit about the power I make, 225 to the wheels religously, I have ntohing to hide or embellish. Its what we make, period. Which is on par with pretty much everyone else i know of. I called Jim M at RB and asked him specifically if there was ANY power to be gained by going standalone or AP or even if there was another flash that they had maybe upped things a little but and wasnt for sale to the general public, and he said no. Not only no but flat no. I believe him over charlatans peddling go-fast juice.

bse50

Do you think mr. Mederer would tell you to buy another product they don't sell? Just the fact that they sell base reflashes to race teams without dyno time tells the whole story. I know how the stock system works and I know how the Bosch\Magneti Marelli ecus work as well. There's no comparison between the 2 systems.

I'm sure you make 225rwhp, i'm also sure there's more to be asked to our engines when the rules allow.

Anyway I see we have touched your ego and this discussion is just veering off topic. I won't comment any further, it would be useless.

vcoil

Hi,

Just a few words.
I started racing this year after:
some track days in SPA with my rx8;
2 racing driving technique courses (for a total of 6 full immersion days);
A race in the race class I'm 'competing' this year (not a real championship because the Belgian Ch. is in trouble so we race a little in France and in Belgium).

I rent a seat in a quite bizarre race car because I want to learn to drive.

http://www.funcup.net/PAGES/accueil.php

135hp, manual gearbox (not seq.shifter like others), 2 places, iron wheels (non alu rims like others that means they save -20kg), tubular chassis, street tires (uniroyal
A sort of big kart, really funny to drive and challenging.
Average 55 cars at start of each endurance race (6-8-11-25h races).
Why not the RX8?
In Europe is really difficult to race with a specs car: impossible.
The rx8 IS NOT a race car and even if you made all of the sort of modification I made and will made (including a roll cage) it is still a really good sport car with a superb PRODUCTION chassis, the assisted direction, etc.
NOT a race car.

I don't know how things are in USA but here an hour of race time is more than 1400$.
Hotel, transfer, etc are not included : count at least 400$ (in Europe the gas is at 2,23$ per LITRE ).
Damages are for you (and a little touch on the lateral rails is 400$).

All of that costs money, cash, out of my pockets.
Sponsorship or partnership are a fata morgana.

If you're a learning driver what kind of value can you propose to a partner?
What kind of partner that the team not already has? (tyres, body paint).
All the other parts are sold EXCLUSIVELY from the championship organisation.
What kind of added value you can propose if:
-no TV coverage, or a little one.
-not allowed spectators (France), a little participation in Belgium.
-national event BUT, for instance in Belgium, they are 11.000.000 people in the country (I think NY is bigger) with 12.000.000 cows :D .
Examples are from my experience, but can be applicable all over the world.

The fact is that: as a car owner you have more to offer (and with that f*** crisis is a huge challenge to find partnerships) BUT as a learning driver you're completely out of the game.
So you or your father will pay for it. Period.

Try as much as cars as possible by renting them for track days on circuit (the problem is a lots of those are fwd).
Drive on as much as different type of circuits as possible.

But the ultimate difference is you.
So be in fit.
Learn how to correctly eat.
Read (maybe some Ross Bentley's book and other authors too).
Develop yourself.
Learn how to improve.

Did you do that before starting to think about to buy a car for race?

I can just say that if you take this serious (and you should simply because of the cost of your investment),it's a hard work.

The car is the 'last' think: it needs to be as competitive as possible to give you the chance to not float alone at the end of the pack.
At the beginning alone means NO learning (no matter in what position you are), LAST but with some competitors around IS learning.
All others stuff are pure speculation.

My 2cts

Regards
One who wants to learn to drive

d walker

Yeah I do actually, you do not know me or Jim so who are you to pose a question in this manner? Do you know who I am or who is on my speed dial? Of course not, you are simply trying to sound like you know what you are talking about and you dont.

Tell me WHY the Bosch ECU would make any more power than my flash? Hmmm? Well you cant because there is nothing special about a Bosch 4.3 Motronic beyond the price tag. The OEM ECU does a fine job of running the engine, and I know that because I DO IT, I dont read about it in magazines or on the internet.


This is exactly the point, the rules do not allow, and I make the maximum hp the engine will produce, so I have absolutely no use of even another reflash.

Your the one who went personal here, questioning my credentials while producing none of your own. What I SAY, I have done. Not my buddy, or his friend, or some guy I met at a track once who said hi to me, I have done it. The problem is you questioned me and I called you on it, and now you want to play the ego card. No ego here my friend, just cold, hard, facts.

slvrstreak

iTrader: (3)

Why would someone pay $27,000 for an ECU thats no better than the stock one?
They wouldn't.
Do I know the difference? No
Do you or Jim? Obviously not
But they don't just blow that kind of money for the hell of it.
When racing teams put that kind of money in their cars it's for a reason. They know what they are doing.
Not to say you dont; just saying there is surely a reason and, obviously none of us know it.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

sometimes people believe some things are better over others---some teams like all the data collecting capacity that stand alones give over the oem box, they like individual injector control and will install an o2 sensor in every exhaust orifice, egt measurements in individual pipes and at different distances--looking for that edge. Sometimes the edge is just NOT there.
The Rx8 pcm is a pretty powerful computer--just the dang injectors need some weird mapping to get it to run right on the street and it takes some sophistication to do that. I think it can run the oem engine just fine at that power/ modification level.
I have followed a RX8* on track that had the RB race flash. It was an obvious difference. I know the car before and after that flash. It was an obvious difference.
I took a map from his pcm and a lot of people would not believe what racing beat did. I called them myself to double check--I got an education. I listened.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

Highly entertaining - more please. Btw, since you ran WC, did they modify the rules to make the rx8 more competitive (I don't really follow the series that much except the Mosport race). I know Eric was not happy with the way the game was set up for the rx8.

d walker

I was very unhappy with the way the rules were set last year for the boosted cars, and did not run the last few races because of that. Eric shared my feelings and also voted with his feet, so to speak.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

We have a strong Toronto connection with Povoledo doing great after a few years without consistent drives as well as Compass360 doing well.

Flashwing

I apologize for the late post, I had planned to come back to this thread but time got away from me.

So I think we've gotten to the meat and potatoes of the argument here.

So you're argument about why HPDE isn't safe is because you had another instructor make some rather rookie mistakes and nearly put you guys into a wall? It sounds like you were more upset he wasn't listening to your instruction than anything else.

Would it have made any difference if you guys were driving in a fully prep'd race car? Do you think the driver's behavior would have been any more or less different? If a driver is incapable of reading available tire grip and incapable of remaining calm while driving then it won't matter what kind of a vehicle they are driving. To that point, it sounds like the car was beyond the capability of the driver...something a fully prep'd race car won't help either.

Having not come up through an HPDE program, I wouldn't expect you to understand the dynamics of how drivers handle themselves or the thought process that goes into it. While you will always have a few wild cards, my experience has been that HPDE drivers are more cautious than others when dealing with track driving. Everyone is acutely aware they are driving either their DD or a car which has taken some time to put together. Both myself and other drivers have opted to not drive in certain weather conditions or track conditions because the risk vs. reward is too great.

I also know our local HPDE program is the only thing that keeps our NASA organization running. Without it, no one would get any track time.

Does this make one method better than the other? I would argue no. Out of over a hundred drivers, I don't know many people who can afford thousands of dollars in rental fees for a day or even a weekend. A lot of drivers whom now drive expensive, high performing vehicles, got their start in HPDE with their own car. As driver's gain experience, they see the value in race suits, roll cages, fire safety gear and a dedicated track car.

It comes down to the level of competition you are looking to do, and the level you can afford. Myself, personally, I can't afford to handle much competition in my street driven RX8. It has taken me 6 years and double the cost of the car to get it where it is today. In hindsight, that money could have built a dedicated race car but I didn't have the cash all at once. It came in pieces.

So what should we do? I would argue there are a lot more club racers at my level than there are professional racers at a highly competitive level. Should we just tell them all "sorry people, too dangerous...you gotta pay to play" or mitigate the risk and teach safe track behavior.

Sure the track is dangerous. No one would race if it was 100% safe. That said, it's a HELL of a lot safer driving the track than it would be to do a nighttime blast up and down the mountain...which is the alternative people are forced to accept if track racing isn't an option.

Trash talking the HPDE program because one guy refused to listen to your instruction and put his nice Porsche into the weeds is hardly conclusive evidence to condemn HPDE programs AND street cars as unsafe for the track.

Just because YOU cannot be convinced does not mean that the discussion is over.


Afraid that isn't the case. We all like to believe these teams have some secret insight into parts or some grander understanding of the car. I've spoken to more than one "professional" team about the Bosche unit vs. the AP or a stand-alone.

Their reasoning for spending $15,000 on the ECU? Because they are familiar with it...that's it.

d walker

Are you seriously trying to argue about safety?

I get it, you think HPDE is great. Thats awesome. I dont. HPDE teaches bad habits and I think we all know it. HPDE is not safe, and everyone knows it. Thats fine if you choose to participate knowing that its unsafe and you do not have the proper safety equipment, just dont be an idiot trying to argue that its safe and promote HPDE as a safe activity. Its not. I 100% believe that you have the right to be as stupid as you want to be as long as it doesnt affect my life, so feel free to drive your street car around on a track with no safety gear all you want.

Thanks for your input.

AZ R3

No safety gear? dwalker, you make it sound like they are out there not wearing helmets and seatbelts.

Any form of "racing" is not "safe", period. Really, no form of driving is - look at all the glass and bits of car on the side of any highway. One could even make the argument that HPDE is safer than driving to work every day, in that you are on a closed course with 12-15 other drivers instead of thousands of people who are paying attention to everything but the road.

One wants to attain a certain threshold of perceived safety, surely. Helmets, harnesses, roll cages, and the like.

dwalker, be careful. Typing on a keyboard could increase the chances of arthritis in your hand. It's not a very safe activity.

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

D_walker: Please get the **** off of our forum if you have nothing useful to say other than to prove your superiority. You are adding nothing to the discussion or helping the OP, or any of the rest of us in any way.

d walker

Yeah, I dont know what I am thinking- nothing bad ever happens at HPDE's..





Sebring, Dec 2011, HPDE. Car slammed into the wall after losing control over the start/finish paint stripe (it was damp) Completely destroyed the concrete wall section and ended the day for everyone. Engine and front suspension completely ripped from the car structure.

Yeap, nothing bad ever happens at HPDE's.

Helmets and your seat belt are a good start, but not really enough when your in a 3500lb projectile about to slam into an immovable object, or better, another 3500lb moving object. Good times.