FRANCES

The camber adjustment bolt looks like it has no more adjustment if you look at the front lobe and don't look at the back side of the control arm to see if it can be turned in more. It looks like the lobe on the front is maxed out, and that is what the first two shops I went to thought. Long story short, there are lots of folks that haven't worked on fully adjustable suspensions, or deep down are concerned about putting in heavy camber adjustments.
But the other thing they did was ensure the suspension was not loaded on either side. When we put the car on the lift, they had hydraulic lifts that lifted the car front and back on the suspension,not the wheels. This centered it up, making the readings accurate. Then with me loaded in the car, you have an accurate reading of the ride height in racing trim.
I trusted this information as it made sense when the guy explained why someone would think it had no more adjustment.

devildog1679

Quick question for all you alignment experts. I noticed that my front left tire is wearing a bit more then the other three. I am running on stock Dunlops, -1.5 L/R Front camber, 0 Front toe, 6.5 Castor, -1.8 L/R Rear camber, and 1/8 total toe in Rear. The only thing I can think of is that when I got my alignment done I was not in the car. Could this be the cause?

FRANCES

Devil Dog,
Are you only driving on the street?

devildog1679

Mainly yes, I do about 1 track weekend a month. I know that the inside edge will wear faster than the outside edge. It's just that the only tire that is wearing faster is the left front?

More_Revs

I'm not expert, but if I have to take a guess, either 1) with you in the car, you cause the LF alignment to change and have a slight toe change. or 2) the alignment rack you did this on is out of wack.

Since you're not that big of a guy, I doubt number 1 would cause noticeable difference in tire wear.

devildog1679

I guess I can get the alighnment checked somwhere else. It will have to wait until after this weekend. By the way are you going?

WpgDSMer

OK, so I got my alignment, and I followed the common practice to get more camber by sacrificing caster. I decided to model the reaction tonight, and has anyone looked into the trade off between losing caster and gaining camber?

I have to double check the model I made, but here is what I have found.

Camber -1.45 deg with 5.0deg caster (on my car now)
Turn the wheel 15 deg you end up with -2.69 camber
Turn the wheel 10 deg you end up with -2.30 camber
Turn the wheel 5 deg you end up with -1.88 camber

Camber -1.25 deg with 7.0 deg caster (assumes that you loose .1camber per 1 deg of caster, think I read it somewhere, unknown if this is an obtainable setting on my car).
Turn the wheel 15 deg you end up with -3.02 camber
Turn the wheel 10 deg you end up with -2.44 camber
Turn the wheel 5 deg you end up with -1.85 camber

Anyone know what a typical steering angle is for a slalom, long sweeper or tight low speed corner?
Seems like we sacrificing actual turning camber for a good alignment dyno number? What is the negative of too high a caster value?

Zokk's 8

I recently got four 245/40 18 tires and a new alignment, I have a 35 mm offset on 8.5 wide rims. The car is under-steering and I have to corner at lower speeds to keep the front from plowing. I seldom have the chance to autocross or track, but do occasionally. I hate to use the brakes before cornering on the street, but this alignment requires it. The old man who did my alignment specializes in 15 year old Caprices and doesn't understand performance driving. Please help. I am hoping someone will reply with a lightly aggressive set up for the street that I can take somewhere. I want my super handling back.

Thanks

Cito

This is stating the obvious, but maybe you should steer clear of the guy who is aligning Caprices and Town Cars. Somebody in Ohio help this guy out with a referral to a performance handling oriented alignment shop.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

unfortunately it's not that easy, nor should you solely rely on a model. You need to investigate bump steer relative to caster and make actual measurements on the car to verify your findings.

fastmike

I like leaving caster in a car.
Killing caster to gain a little static camber is not how I roll.
Excellent work!
FM

WpgDSMer

Ya, the model I made just had some basic angles, not the actual suspension geometry and attachment points. Has anyone made an actual model, or tried two settings on their alignment, one with max camber, the other with quite a bit of caster added back (to 7ish deg) without many other changes and compared?
I just finished my first AutoX in the car, and I like the alignment settings I ended up with. I'm starting to get the hang of it, but it's very different than my old AWD car (no more mashing of the throttle). That and I'm left wanting more traction since I'm running on the OEM Dunlops. Next year will be the time for 710s. Right now I guess it's good to run on tires that won't hide my mistakes with massive grip.

Zokk's 8

I was thinking of trying Silver8's set up.

Front Camber -1.6 Left, -1.6 Right
Front Caster 6.6 Left, 6.9 Right
Front Toe 0.03 Left, 0.04 Right
Front Cross Camber 0.0
Front Cross Caster -0.3
Front Total Toe 0.06

Rear Camber -1.8 Left, -1.8 Right
Rear Toe 0.08 Left, 0.08 Right
Rear Total Toe 0.15
Thrust angle 0.00

It seems a tad aggressive, but I know very little about alignments.

With the nurfed alignment the car tracks great, and he eliminated the tendency to follow road ruts, and it is more stable over 100 mph, but he also eliminated the ability to take a corner at 40 mph without squealing a tire. I am hoping to go back with hard numbers and get a discount on a new alignment. Think Silver8 set up is good for the street?

takahashi

When you are talking about toe. Please make sure the followings:

negative toe means what? Toe in or toe out?

In Australia, it means toe out.

Zokk, I will think that you have zero toe for all 4 wheels but I would aim the car having slight toe in rear and slight toe out front (just on that side of zero), just in case that the set up moves while driving.

Wind Dance

iTrader: (7)

Ran auto-x today at Atwater, CA
Felt stable for a mild setup.
-1.5 Fr Camber
-2.1 Rr Camber
6.7 Fr Caster
.12 Toe Fr (not sure if it was +/- don't have my sheet with me right now)
.10 Toe Rr (not sure if it was +/- don't have my sheet with me right now)
.01 Thrust angle

[edit]
this was done with me in the car.

Michael

Installed Koni SA + Tein S-Tech, let it settle for 2 weeks and got an alignment. Paid $32 extra to get unlimited adjustments for 3 years, which will come in handy trying different degrees of negative camber.

FL:
Camber -1.5*
Caster 6.9*
Toe 0.12*
SAI 12.1*
Included Angle 10.7*

FR:
-1.3*
7.6*
0.10*
12.2*
10.9*

Front:
Cross Camber -0.1*
Cross Caster -0.7*
Total Toe 0.22*

RL:
Camber -2.5*
Toe 0.14*

RR:
Camber -2.5*
Toe 0.09*

Rear:
Total Toe 0.23*
Thrust Angle 0.02*

I mainly run DE's with this car so the massive camber in the rear will actually increase tire longevity, at least w/ my application, since I don't run around a lot on the street...

imput1234

iTrader: (6)

Front camber: L/R -1.7
Front Caster: L 6.6, R 6.9
Front Toe L/R 0.03

Rear Camber: L/R -1.8
Rear Toe L/R .06
Thrust angle 0.00

The Underdog

iTrader: (2)

Ok I am a bit slow here. I only just got my RX-8 a few weeks ago, just got a set of race wheels and tires this past week, I finally got my race alignment today, and my first autocross is tomorrow morning.

Now, I read a whole bunch of stuff on here about alignments and there seems to be two kinds of people. Those that got less than a degree negative camber in the front and those that got more. I turned out to be one of the ones that got less. About -.4. I even saw the post about the second set of adjuster lobes on the back side of the control arm pivots and made sure he turned those. Fat side of the washer to the inside so as to push the pivot out toward the outside of the car. My question is... Is that all you can do or is there some other secret adjustment having to do with that third lobe way on the back end of the control arm. I understand this to be the caster adjustment.

And that leads me to another observaton. There also seems to be two schools of thought regarding caster. One says get rid of it in favor of more negative camber. The other says keep it coz it makes negative camber when you turn the steering wheel. So, which is better? Static negative camber or dynamic negative camber as a result of steering angle. I posed this question to the alignment guy and he said that the camber gained by steering angle as a result of caster is very minute and wouldn't be significant. I don't know if he knows what he's talking about though.

I'm kinda hoping that fellow who was making models of suspension geometry finally finished what he was doing and got some hard numbers for us to look at. Barring that, I would be willing to do such a thing if I had the software package. (freeware anyone?)

Thanks in advance for all the info/flames that ensue...

Rob

marsredr100

iTrader: (1)

Corner balance/Autocross alignment

Can anyone recommend a good location (preferably from experience) in the greater Tampa-Lakeland-Orlando area that can perform this service?

docgatorx8er

iTrader: (10)

OK, I'm pulling my hair out over here.

I've read through this thread a hundred times. There's too many settings listed without the application.

I autocross only. 18" stock wheels. Stock suspension.

Is this a good starting point?

Front Camber -0.9 Left, -0.9 Right
Front Caster 6.7 Left, 6.9
Front Toe 0.09 Left, 0.09 Right
Front Cross Camber 0.0
Front Cross Caster -0.5
Front Total Toe 0.18

Rear Camber -2.0 Left, -2.0 Right
Rear Toe 0.13 Left, 0.12 Right
Rear Total Toe 0.25
Thrust angle 0.01

If not, can you please make appropriate suggestions?

The Underdog

iTrader: (2)

Well, I just got my rx8 this year and have spent most of the season autocrossing it and here's what I've come up with...

I don't think the rx8 is capable of having too much negative camber in front so max that out and combat tire roll-over with pressure adjustments. I run about 38-40psi on 245 falken rt615's on the stock rims. Maybe a pound or two less in the rear. I don't really have any advice yet for rear camber. Mine is roughly the same as the front and that seems to work ok for me. It's still a little on the understeering side for my taste, but I'm still learning the car as well, so who knows. Rear camber requirements can depend a lot on driving style.

I tried maxing out the caster this last race to get more negative camber while turning but it ended up being too much and in low speed, tight corners I got horrible understeer so I put it back to stock, roughly, whatever that was. I can't really experiment incrementally because my adjusters are buchered and I sort of have to hammer them around, so I'll get back later with more results on that after I fix it.

The only other thing I have done is drill a new hole in the front sway bar forward of the original hole to stiffen that up. I don't know how far forward of the old hole. I just drilled it as far forward as I thought I could without getting the mounting bolt on the fat part of the bar. I did it while it was on the car but taken loose from its mounts. I didn't even have to take the wheels off. However, it would be a lot easier to do it with the bar removed from the car entirely but my laziness made me work harder if that makes any sense.

I came in 4th or something on the OE tires that came on the car. Since I got the Falkens I've won every race I've entered. No super serious competition but still...

Good luck.

docgatorx8er

iTrader: (10)

ANY COMMENTS OR ADJUSTMENTS ON MY NUMBERS ABOVE??? ANYONE (nicely!!!)

The Underdog

iTrader: (2)

ok I guess the short hand version of my post is get more negative camber in the front if you can. I think you can get upwards of -1.5.

And prolly zero toe all around to slightly toe out.

Also get a pyrometer and take temperatures outer middle and inner on your tires after your runs. That will help you get a clearer picture in your mind of what is going on with your suspension.

dmak_el

iTrader: (1)

Mazdaspeed sport springs, shocks, ms front and rear sway bars.
18"x8.5" +45 offset with 235 tires

Front
camber -2'10" (max out already)
toe in 0'08" each side, total toe 0'16"
max caster i can run, between 6~7'

Rear
camber -1'30"
toe in 0'02" each side, total toe 0'04"

i used to have more camber at the rear, but found the car understeer too much. I give a little toe in for the front and rear so the car is more stable on the highway.

dmak_el

iTrader: (1)

i recommend more camber at the front, and keep -2 at the back for now if you dont' want the back to come lose too easily