370Z or RX-8...
04-23-2010, 10:32 AM
#101
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At my office we have a number of sports car fans. Two guys have STIs, both of course with a ridiculous list of mods. Another guy has a Porsche. And finally another guy (one of my best friends, I also live with him) has a 370z Touring with Sports package. We live in Oregon and do drives out to the coast and through back roads, ie curvy fun roads. Lots of racing and **** talking. We've all been in and driven each others' cars. The general conclusion from the 5 of us is that the RX8 doesn't stand a chance in a straight line against any of them, but has the [B]easiest[B] time in the curves. Before you all flame me, I did not say it "handled" better, as that definition seems to mean "what g does it pull on a skidpad." What I mean is it is easier to take the 8 closer to the limits of handling than any of the other cars. The 370z handles great, but you are being thrown around and fighting it to go through a curve. At the same speed, the RX8 glides through the turn and the driver doesn't feel challenged at all. When in the turns, whichever one of us is in the RX8 always has a much easier time keeping up or leaving the others behind. Then we hit a straight line and I struggle to keep up lol. Just the my opinion, and that of 4 other guys who love their cars but have driven mine.
-Vesper
-Vesper
04-23-2010, 10:43 AM
#103
yeah I will agree with you on the "handling" point you made. Handling shouldn't be used as the key word to describe an 8, as you said, "handling" seems to mean who pulls the highest G's on the skidpad when in reality the 370Z does alot better on the skidpad than the 8. But the 8 feels like a glove, you can put it where you want it...
04-23-2010, 10:49 AM
#105
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Quick question on skidpad numbers - those lateral G's are pulled in one direction right? What about transitional G's? I personally feel that the RX-8's transition from one direction to another is better than the other cars, and that helps the driver not have to "fight" his way through curvy roads.
04-23-2010, 10:54 AM
#106
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"Handling" is the correct word, and correctly infers the combined performance from grip limits and stability/control during weight transfers. Basically the ability to keep the car going where you want when you are using your available lateral grip. (And I think alot of people would also put in, keeping the car going where you want even if you are beyond grip).
Sheer lateral G doesn't equate to good handling, though many manufacturers seem to believe this.
Constant radius smooth turns, the car with the highest lateral G possible will be able to turn faster.
Toss in a radius change or change in turn direction, and the ability to get the grip limits shifted to the other side quickly and controlably is where 'handling' separates from 'lateral G'.
I could be wrong about all of this...
Sheer lateral G doesn't equate to good handling, though many manufacturers seem to believe this.
Constant radius smooth turns, the car with the highest lateral G possible will be able to turn faster.
Toss in a radius change or change in turn direction, and the ability to get the grip limits shifted to the other side quickly and controlably is where 'handling' separates from 'lateral G'.
I could be wrong about all of this...
04-23-2010, 10:59 AM
#108
^ Jin , I'd assume that has to do with Slaloming and the average speed you can go through the cones. Most Slaloming tests that Road&Track/Car&Driver or Motor Trend does is a 800-1000 feet slalom with cones spaced 100 feet from each other and they average you speed weaving/zig zagging through them. The higher the speed the better. This directly relates with transition speed and agility
Last edited by WTBRotary!; 04-23-2010 at 11:02 AM.
04-23-2010, 11:04 AM
#109
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Not really. Lap times are very much track dependent. The 'straighter' the track is, the better the higher power lower handling cars will do compared to the lower power higher handling cars.
You could say the Figure 8, but most figure 8s aren't fast enough and/or have too much settling time between the loops. Slalom isn't bad, but car width comes into play there beyond the simple effect on handling, as you have to turn a wider car more each time. A mini has significantly less deflection off center needed for each switch than a GTR. (example) That affects slalom speeds and times and has nothing to do with handling.
It would be better to have a center line for the car that weaves back and forth, and the fastest time keeping the center line of the car on the weaving line. If the GTR in my above example followed the exact same line as the mini, the GTR would be nailing every single cone.
In the end, it's insanely subjective
You could say the Figure 8, but most figure 8s aren't fast enough and/or have too much settling time between the loops. Slalom isn't bad, but car width comes into play there beyond the simple effect on handling, as you have to turn a wider car more each time. A mini has significantly less deflection off center needed for each switch than a GTR. (example) That affects slalom speeds and times and has nothing to do with handling.
It would be better to have a center line for the car that weaves back and forth, and the fastest time keeping the center line of the car on the weaving line. If the GTR in my above example followed the exact same line as the mini, the GTR would be nailing every single cone.
In the end, it's insanely subjective
Last edited by RIWWP; 04-23-2010 at 11:06 AM.
04-23-2010, 11:08 AM
#110
04-23-2010, 11:25 AM
#112
True but my Sky has 245's and doesn't come close in terms of handling or on the skidpad to the 8
04-23-2010, 11:30 AM
#113
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That's because the Sky has inferior suspension dynamics. Max lateral grip is more than just the tires. Granted, tire width makes up for a hell of alot, but not everything. And GM is behind the curve (though getting closer) in suspension development.
And even everything else being equal, alignment settings can make 1 car's lateral grip higher or lower than another's. Taken to extremes, you can set up 2 identical cars where one can turn left better than the other, who can turn right better than the first.
There is alot that goes into it, and that's where a fair amount of Mazda's money is spent.
And even everything else being equal, alignment settings can make 1 car's lateral grip higher or lower than another's. Taken to extremes, you can set up 2 identical cars where one can turn left better than the other, who can turn right better than the first.
There is alot that goes into it, and that's where a fair amount of Mazda's money is spent.
04-23-2010, 12:20 PM
#114
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Everyone is bringing up great points, and I think we've done a good job picking apart different means of testing handling ratings. 9KRPM said something along the lines of it being purely subjective and that's almost exactly the point I was making. It doesn't matter if a car can pull twice the g, if its harder to get it through a corner at 65 mph when the 8 is at it's limit but feels easy doing it, then in my mind the 8 is a better handling car. That's what all of us here at the office have come to see, the paper means nothing if you're fighting the car to do it. Handling is completely subjective, and the 8 is perfect in this regard. If my friend offered to trade me the Z for my 8, I'd say hell no. I have way more fun in the 8, and I can cruise around with 3 girls to his 1. :D
-Vesper
-Vesper
04-23-2010, 12:53 PM
#115
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The 'ring may have every sort of conditions, but it favors horsepower in general.
Slalom is good - but another part of slaloming is how easy it is to slalom. I do believe that Porsche cars generally perform well in slalom tests, braking tests, etc, and the RX-8 has always been touted as the poor man's Porsche. Which may also be the Boxter or Cayman, but you get what I mean =p
Slalom is good - but another part of slaloming is how easy it is to slalom. I do believe that Porsche cars generally perform well in slalom tests, braking tests, etc, and the RX-8 has always been touted as the poor man's Porsche. Which may also be the Boxter or Cayman, but you get what I mean =p
04-23-2010, 06:33 PM
#117
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i agree with vesper. it's the ease of driving the 8 fast around twisties. the 8 makes the average joe racer-wannabe like me feel like he is the Stig near the limit. Give him the Z near the limit and average joe will prob crap in his pants and wreck the car. lol.
04-24-2010, 11:44 PM
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Haha good point Brettus. I would probably do that, as long as I ended up with the 8 in the end.
Silverkill, are you talking about mine? I have the Shinka, its the GT headlights. Haven't touched them lol.
-Vesper
Silverkill, are you talking about mine? I have the Shinka, its the GT headlights. Haven't touched them lol.
-Vesper