HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

As reported in Autoweek, among other sources:

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...OKYO/910209982

Quote Follows: The next-generation rotary engine from Mazda, unveiled at the 2007 Tokyo show under the code-name “16X,” does not meet sufficient performance and fuel economy guidelines the automaker requires for a production model.
Seita Kanai, Mazda Motor head of R&D, said work continues to be done to improve the rotary's thirsty nature.
“The 16X demonstrated the possibility, but that performance is not good enough. We are doing r&d which will incorporate more new technology,” Kanai said.
The code name refers to the increase in the current engine's displacement, from the current 1.3 liters to 1.6 liters. The 16X was to be finished in time for the next-generation RX-8 sports car, to be launched in 2012 or so.
When unveiled in 2007, the 16X enlarged the elliptical shape of the combustion chamber, and enlarged the rotor's eccentric center stroke. Mazda also planned direct injection fuel delivery in a rotary engine for the first time. However, Mazda also noted that the changed shape would affect the combustion process of the air-fuel mixture.
Kanai declined to say whether it's back to the drawing board for the 16X.
“The 16X is more a profile of a rotary still in our concept stage,” Kanai said. “It needs more evolution.”

rotarygod

They need to go smaller and then use a turbocharger. That will help with efficiency while keeping performance up.

CyberPitz

I agree, DI in the Renesis + FI, I would imagine that would keep the performance up while keeping the Fuel Economy where it's at *or close to it*

MattMPS

they still talk about of 2012 for the new car.

RufusVonStorm

I wonder what's going on with this on the board at Mazda. It sounds like the conversation was "okay guys who are pushing for the rotary at Mazda, you can have your 16X but only if MPG is = X" and X is an unrealistic number.

There's plenty of room for a low-mpg sports car in the mazda lineup when it's averaged in with all the thrifty models. Seems like they're just still scared of trying to design/sell a purpose-built sports car.

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

MICHGoBlue

I think all of us car enthusiasts need to step back and look at the big picture.

Most automakers are backing off on the pure sports car market, why? The demand isn't nearly as high as it was when gas was 1.40.

Keep in mind RX-8's sale is horrendous, and the only reason they want another rotary sports car is to keep the rotary tradition alive at Mazda, has absolutely nothing to do with making profit.

While I admire a decision like that as a consumer, I also realize that is not a smart business decision as an outside onlooker.

So for my sakes, I hope they come out with the 16X. For Mazda and the stock shareholders' sake, I hope the project fails.

The best of both worlds would be the further development of the hydrogen rotary, make it a patented technology, and hopefully other automakers would pick up such practice and ditch the ancient hybrid or electric technologies.

Rootski

iTrader: (1)

Bring back the turbo 12A!

Renesis_8

wow, this is bad news. They're saying it now? What have they done in the past 3-4 years with the 16X. Hopefully they gained some knowledge with this experimental engine and designs a better one.

Maybe they could incorporate a real direct injection system in the next one and inject fuel under compression.
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8 Maniac

iTrader: (1)

That's about the worst idea ever. Hydrogen is a flop. The only reason a hydrogen rotary would be considered a good alternative fuel vehicle is because it has low emissions. It puts out **** poor performance numbers. Plus, mazda producing a car is not going to motivate anyone to run out and build the infrastructure needed to support an alternative fuel. Even the biggest car companies would have a tough time motivating such a movement. If you can explain why hydrogen is a viable option, then I'll be glad to support your idea.

Mazda definitely needs a flagship sports car and I hope it's never something like the MS3. If they build a piston-powered sports car, it'd be better than nothing at all.

MICHGoBlue

I hear ya.
Again, gotta step out of our myopic views about automobiles, and start thinking ways to to produce cars the general public will want to buy, i.e. either fuel efficient or not using fossil fuel at all. Sports cars just aren't as hot of a segment as it once was. There's a reason Honda and Toyota currently have no sports car in their lineup and is cautious of having one in the near future.

Honda has stepped in the hydrogen cell technology, and already has a model out in the real world. Sure it's flawed, but aren't all new technologies flawed when first introduced?

God bless Mazda for being so insistent on having a sports car or two in their lineup. But truth be told, because of that very reason, they will never be the best selling auto maker. It really shows the difference in priorities between the people running Toyota and Mazda.

lesper4

iTrader: (3)

all the other companies are going FI why doesnt mazda?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I am 100% glad to hear that Mazda will never be the best selling auto maker. The bigger you get, the farther you get from your roots and your customers. You can't be "different" if your the biggest and everyone is buying your cars.

Don't get me wrong, I get that Mazda still needs to sell masses of cars to keep in business, but so far they have refused to diverge from their zoom zoom mentality for the sake of better sales, and I believe it stands them very very well. If they go the route of mass market boring motorized appliances, who left will make fun to drive cars that aren't prohibitively expensive?




One thing I See continually on here is the contradiction of wanting more power, better fuel economy, while praising the relatively low price. Most people forget that any increase in performance comes with a corresponding price increase. Mazda could have wrung a ton more power out of the Renesis with factory forced induction to make it a vehicle that destroys the comparisons rather than simply holds it's own, but it would have also put it probably up into the $40k range, maybe high $30s if the world is lucky. At that point, it is still an incredible car, but how many of us would have 8s if that is what the price was?

Also think about the fairly massive drive of sports cars to more and more and more power. True, power is climbing fairly significantly, but sports cars simply don't have the market share they used to, simply because it is harder and harder to justify purchase of a car with that much power, because you can't use it as a normal citizen. Especially since today's sedans are approaching, at, or even over the power levels of yesterday's sports cars, without the stigma, the insurance rates, or safety compromises. Leaving power low and spending cost on improving the 'fun' factor gives you a sports car that is truly fun to drive that you can actually use on normal streets as an every day driver. Crank that to even 300hp, and it becomes harder to hold to that. 400hp and you can't. Again, talking your average driver.

The world paper pushers are constantly anti-speed, and it is growing continually. For that reason alone, powerful sports cars will suffer in both sales and usage as it pushes more people to avoid buying power they can never use. Mazda, by keeping power low and focusing on other areas, gives the average driver a chance at fun without the need to be at unlawful speeds to have it.


If Mazda bows to the constant need for more power, I believe they will begin to suffer. A factory 350-450 hp rotary is a dream car that we all would like, but only a fraction of us would actually purchase, given the rise in cost that would accompany it. Just look at the fraction of 8s that are FI. I'd guess the purchase rate would be about similar.


Just some thoughts.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

Mazda CX-7
Mazdaspeed 3
Mazdaspeed 6

Mazda loves FI, they just need to figure out if it's a logical choice for their next rotary. I'm sure some in Japan still have nightmares of the 3rd Gen 7's...

8 Maniac

iTrader: (1)

Toyota is responsible for the LF-A. That's definitely a sports car. It also appears that they will be making that FT-86 which looks like it's pretty much guaranteed to fall into the sports car area too. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but if Toyota didn't think there was a large enough market for sports cars, why would they release one? Although it's going to be gone soon, honda has had the S2000 for the last 10 years. While I don't think they've mentioned anything to replace it, I would not be surprised at all if they did come out with something in the not too distant future.

Car sales are down in general, including sports cars. But there's still a pretty significant portion of the public interested in sports cars. I see tons of brand new sports cars driving around still. A lot of the newer sports cars are selling rather well. I think it would be a stupid business move for mazda to no longer have a flagship sports car. Not just for us. If I were talking about what I wanted, I would say mazda should make a flagship sports car with a rotary engine. What I'm saying is that mazda needs a flagship sports car, regardless of what's in it.

Edit: and there's a few reasons the RX-8 sales are terrible... If I was getting a brand new off the lot sports car right now, it would not be an rx-8, as much as I love them.

Spin9k

My guess is with this pronouncement... things are not going to end well for us rotary fans. It certainly must have taken some guts after ? years of 16x development ... for Mazda to essentially come out and say "...opps....".

For us at least the rotary rumor mill can finally R.I.P and we'll not have to suffer along wondering what's going on. Nothing's going on.

My advice - before no one gives a flip, perhaps it would be best to stop beating a dead horse (a.k.a. 'HP, torque and economy in a rotary engine') and either turbo or supercharge the existing engine for a quick sales pick-me-up in the RX-8...

or ... or ... admit defeat and just stick a tweaked MS3 engine in an RX-7 design and sell us a car that's competitive with todays best piston engine sports car offerings at least.

A sad sad day I must say.

8 Maniac

iTrader: (1)

The only question I have is why the design guy would say he's wanting to push for a new RX-7. I don't think they have the guts to put a piston engine in a car with RX in the name.

Spin9k

Yea, there certainly seem to be some mixed messages coming out of Mazda people lately....

"..16x is just a concept design" and "pushing for an RX-7 w/16x" don't really blend well as a coherent story.

...oh and a piston RX-7 would simply be an MX-7

chiketkd

iTrader: (5)

+1

I wonder how expensive it would be to devleop a direct injection system for the current 13B-MSP? Could make a reliable platform for a factory FI rotary.

nvrfalter

iTrader: (1)

the lf-a is not a sports car. its a 400,000 dollar car. thats exotic / supercar territory.

8 Maniac

iTrader: (1)

Well, yeah. But the guy said "RX-7". MX would be a completely different thing, and I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't have made that mistake and intended to say RX. Maybe they're just screwing with us lol.

That's true... but it's definitely with sports performance in mind. I'm simply using "sports" and an adjective to describe it's platform purpose.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I would disagree with you on this point. Very few of today's cars are sports cars. They are massive engines with a token underpinning of sport. The constantly growing list of cars with electronic speed limiters shows this, as the power is fast out growing the physics around driving a car at the speeds the power suggests. I'm not saying that all of them are this way, but a larger and larger portion of them are, and that portion is growing. Take the new Challenger (or is it the Camero) That thing has no business being anywhere near the speed it's engine can get it to.


So the end result is a constant slide into a drag race that is becoming shorter and shorter and shorter. I want my driving fun to last longer than 10 to 15 seconds.

They make ED pills for that kind of ecstasy duration.

nvrfalter

iTrader: (1)

mazda should throw a renny into the current mx-5 platform. that would be a quick little queer-mobile.

for the rx platform they could also lighten the rotors like racing beat does/used to do (?) and put a little snail on it with relative ease.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Agreed. I believe someone within Mazda still wants the rotary in the MX-5, even if an alternate drivetrain with the i4 the way alot of companies offer a multiple drivetrain i4 vs v6, or v6 vs v8. Watching the build threads of the Renesis powered MX-5s shows how much of the power train has nearly identical build dimensions or attachment points. Someone clearly wanted to design it to keep it as an option.

I'd buy it.

ASH8

Wow, I am surprised...sort off..

I reported years ago that testing was not going well on the 16X...

I also reported that Fuel economy gains could not be achieve, and they still cant.
DI is still the biggest issue with a rotary...getting it to work right.

Frankly, I think this is VERY BAD news for the Future of the Rotary as we know it...

Mazda should be showing the FUTURE model NOW, not in another 2 years.

I had already reported yesterday that Mazda Europe are walking away from owners with dead RX-8 engines of 4 years of age..it is fast again losing it's consumer appeal.

Mazda are losing a lot of money with the RX-8...HEAPS, it has not made any money for them.

Do you honestly believe (in the present economy) Mazda are going to make another one?

YES, I agree the 12A is the best engine in a small sports car like the original SA RX-7.