16x Delay
10-21-2009, 03:38 PM
#27
Super Moderator
10-21-2009, 03:47 PM
#28
Momentum Keeps Me Going
You know, I often wonder as I drive my other car...my DD... a low output PT Cruiser Turbo - - - what the hell the big deal is with a little FI. I mean My PT has no intercooler (that I know of), it has goobs of 'off the line torque', making it a great DD car, giving it that nice boost I dearly wish the RX had. At the same time, it has given me no problems, is totally and completely invisible in the personality of the car, cost me nothing I'm aware of..... and I constantly think...why can't Mazda do this? Just a bit of boost...so easy..so invisible...so painless????
I don't need much FI, just a bit, just some torque, I don't want a giant mega turbo. It can't be that hard, and certainly can't be that expensive...my PT cost me 12K$ and list was like 21K$. What's the big deal????
I don't need much FI, just a bit, just some torque, I don't want a giant mega turbo. It can't be that hard, and certainly can't be that expensive...my PT cost me 12K$ and list was like 21K$. What's the big deal????
10-21-2009, 03:47 PM
#29
exactly--
I will be surprised if the rx8 will have a 2012 model. Sad to think about.
But whoever approved the pre 09 engine and cooling design should have his nuts cut off.
The 09 is a big improvement but I think it is too little to late.
Spin because your cruiser doesnt have 10/1 compression ratio, a 270degree flame front and inadequete cooling system.
OD
I will be surprised if the rx8 will have a 2012 model. Sad to think about.
But whoever approved the pre 09 engine and cooling design should have his nuts cut off.
The 09 is a big improvement but I think it is too little to late.
Spin because your cruiser doesnt have 10/1 compression ratio, a 270degree flame front and inadequete cooling system.
OD
Last edited by olddragger; 10-21-2009 at 03:49 PM.
10-21-2009, 03:48 PM
#30
Super Moderator
It is very sad...I think this is the end of the line...sorry, I really do.
oil is shooting up AGAIN!
Mazda fecked up badly with the original 8 engine, by not lubricating the middle apex seal, when all the other rotaries in the past 25 years had it??? Why did they change it...why did they change oil pressure???
The RX-8 will finish at the end of next year or if allowed in 2011 as it does not conform to new rear collision regs...and they ain't going to change it for 1 or 2 years.
So I would be saying...if you want a rotary get it soon.
oil is shooting up AGAIN!
Mazda fecked up badly with the original 8 engine, by not lubricating the middle apex seal, when all the other rotaries in the past 25 years had it??? Why did they change it...why did they change oil pressure???
The RX-8 will finish at the end of next year or if allowed in 2011 as it does not conform to new rear collision regs...and they ain't going to change it for 1 or 2 years.
So I would be saying...if you want a rotary get it soon.
10-21-2009, 03:50 PM
#31
Super Moderator
Yep, it is the end...the RX-8 has about 12 months at the most, maybe 18.
10-21-2009, 04:42 PM
#37
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I don't think the sales of the RX8 were a result of the car itself as much as people would lead it to believe.
The first issue was not being able to capture the majority of the RX7 market that had previously sold their cars. These people were turned off by the 4 door, 4 seater design of the vehicle. There is a wide market of car owners that see anything 4 door as a sedan and not a sports car. I think the STI, EVO and many other vehicles would show that isn't true but that's another radio show.
One aspect that Mazda ran into this time around (in the US at least) were the mountains of environmental regulations that had been put into place since the last RX7 rolled off the boat. This placed huge restrictions on engine design which created issues that later resulted in engine failures.
The engine recall was a huge eyesore. Despite the fact that there were millions of RX8's that have yet to have their engine replaced (mine is at 90,000 miles on the factory motor) the damage was done.
Plus there is just the mystery factor or the scary factor. People already don't understand cars and trying to see value in the rotary is even harder when it's even more foreign then your standard car. People also got scared away by the fact that they needed to (GASP!) check their oil every 2 fuel fills.
If the rotary continues to be built it is NOT going to be because it's a huge money maker.
The RX8 is Mazda's halo car. Like any halo car it's built to show the capability and quality of a car maker. Do you think Dodge makes money off the Viper? I imagine the only halo car that is profitable would be the Mustang Cobra or the Corvette. Still, they are a dime a dozen!
Mazda will build the rotary because it's a matter of pride. The rotary has been a huge part of Mazda's history. Imagine how much time, money and research has been conducted in the manufacturing process of the rotary engine? All that would be put to rest once the last warranty period expires on a rotary vehicle.
Mazda needs to stop worrying about fuel economy and just build the damn car. If you are buying a sports car based on fuel mileage then you need to go buy something else. Piston motors have had the benefit of 100 years of design engineering from every automotive maker on the planet. The fact that ONE company has taken the rotary engine as far as it has is a huge accomplishment.
I have faith the rotary will still be around. It would be a huge defeat for Mazda to let it go.
The first issue was not being able to capture the majority of the RX7 market that had previously sold their cars. These people were turned off by the 4 door, 4 seater design of the vehicle. There is a wide market of car owners that see anything 4 door as a sedan and not a sports car. I think the STI, EVO and many other vehicles would show that isn't true but that's another radio show.
One aspect that Mazda ran into this time around (in the US at least) were the mountains of environmental regulations that had been put into place since the last RX7 rolled off the boat. This placed huge restrictions on engine design which created issues that later resulted in engine failures.
The engine recall was a huge eyesore. Despite the fact that there were millions of RX8's that have yet to have their engine replaced (mine is at 90,000 miles on the factory motor) the damage was done.
Plus there is just the mystery factor or the scary factor. People already don't understand cars and trying to see value in the rotary is even harder when it's even more foreign then your standard car. People also got scared away by the fact that they needed to (GASP!) check their oil every 2 fuel fills.
If the rotary continues to be built it is NOT going to be because it's a huge money maker.
The RX8 is Mazda's halo car. Like any halo car it's built to show the capability and quality of a car maker. Do you think Dodge makes money off the Viper? I imagine the only halo car that is profitable would be the Mustang Cobra or the Corvette. Still, they are a dime a dozen!
Mazda will build the rotary because it's a matter of pride. The rotary has been a huge part of Mazda's history. Imagine how much time, money and research has been conducted in the manufacturing process of the rotary engine? All that would be put to rest once the last warranty period expires on a rotary vehicle.
Mazda needs to stop worrying about fuel economy and just build the damn car. If you are buying a sports car based on fuel mileage then you need to go buy something else. Piston motors have had the benefit of 100 years of design engineering from every automotive maker on the planet. The fact that ONE company has taken the rotary engine as far as it has is a huge accomplishment.
I have faith the rotary will still be around. It would be a huge defeat for Mazda to let it go.
Last edited by Flashwing; 10-21-2009 at 04:46 PM.
10-21-2009, 05:05 PM
#40
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Well it's probably going to be around 2012. If that's when the current production life of the RX8 is expected to end then that would be the time. I doubt that Mazda will ever produce more than 1 rotary car at any given time due to the huge expense of R&D. Although using the rotary in more than one platform would probably increase the profit of the program.
I'm surprised they have not offered a special rotary edition of the MX-5 as the chassis are pretty much the same and share the same production parts.
No doubt the delay currently has been due to Mazda understanding there should have been more design time put into the RENESIS. The reason we saw so many changes in the 16x is because it was obvious (to owners anyway) that the current platform is out of date. More displacement and a lighter platform will be the only way to meet the design standards of future cars.
Plus, I'm sure Mazda will be banking on the fact that by 2012 the automotive market will have straightened out and there will be more people looking for new cars.
I'm surprised they have not offered a special rotary edition of the MX-5 as the chassis are pretty much the same and share the same production parts.
No doubt the delay currently has been due to Mazda understanding there should have been more design time put into the RENESIS. The reason we saw so many changes in the 16x is because it was obvious (to owners anyway) that the current platform is out of date. More displacement and a lighter platform will be the only way to meet the design standards of future cars.
Plus, I'm sure Mazda will be banking on the fact that by 2012 the automotive market will have straightened out and there will be more people looking for new cars.
10-21-2009, 05:40 PM
#41
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Can I ask a logical question:
What would Mazda have to gain by essentially castrating the already low sales of the current RX car by coming out and saying, "We have a better RX car with a better rotary engine coming out at the same price range as the current model, but its 2 years off."
Answer: Nothing
Now let me ask another question:
What would Mazda have to lose by fabricating a story that will make the current rotary model more valuable by saying, 'This is it! That whole project failed and this is the last rotary EVER, so get em while you can."
Answer: Nothing
I would take this 'news' with a grain of salt. Last week, the lead designer said the technology IS THERE for a rotary platform that would compete with 911/GTR, but the timing isnt right. This news sounds more like a damage control marketing strategy. I guarantee it'll be all over the hack 'auto sites', like insideline & car and driver, by Monday. Mission accomplished.
What would Mazda have to gain by essentially castrating the already low sales of the current RX car by coming out and saying, "We have a better RX car with a better rotary engine coming out at the same price range as the current model, but its 2 years off."
Answer: Nothing
Now let me ask another question:
What would Mazda have to lose by fabricating a story that will make the current rotary model more valuable by saying, 'This is it! That whole project failed and this is the last rotary EVER, so get em while you can."
Answer: Nothing
I would take this 'news' with a grain of salt. Last week, the lead designer said the technology IS THERE for a rotary platform that would compete with 911/GTR, but the timing isnt right. This news sounds more like a damage control marketing strategy. I guarantee it'll be all over the hack 'auto sites', like insideline & car and driver, by Monday. Mission accomplished.
10-21-2009, 05:48 PM
#42
I like a conspiracy as much as the other guy but unfortunately I have reason to take this story at face value. Hopefully we'll hear some progress within a year or so. I doubt they're giving up.
Paul.
Paul.
10-21-2009, 05:56 PM
#43
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Wouldn't call it a conspiracy so much a common sense. its FY2010, and mazda plans to sell the current 8 through FY2012 or even FY2013. That's a long time, so its a bit early to start generating excitement about the next rotary, when there's a perfectly fine model that could use a boost in sales right now.
10-21-2009, 05:57 PM
#44
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Can I ask a logical question:
What would Mazda have to gain by essentially castrating the already low sales of the current RX car by coming out and saying, "We have a better RX car with a better rotary engine coming out at the same price range as the current model, but its 2 years off."
Answer: Nothing
Now let me ask another question:
What would Mazda have to lose by fabricating a story that will make the current rotary model more valuable by saying, 'This is it! That whole project failed and this is the last rotary EVER, so get em while you can."
Answer: Nothing
I would take this 'news' with a grain of salt. Last week, the lead designer said the technology IS THERE for a rotary platform that would compete with 911/GTR, but the timing isnt right. This news sounds more like a damage control marketing strategy. I guarantee it'll be all over the hack 'auto sites', like insideline & car and driver, by Monday. Mission accomplished.
What would Mazda have to gain by essentially castrating the already low sales of the current RX car by coming out and saying, "We have a better RX car with a better rotary engine coming out at the same price range as the current model, but its 2 years off."
Answer: Nothing
Now let me ask another question:
What would Mazda have to lose by fabricating a story that will make the current rotary model more valuable by saying, 'This is it! That whole project failed and this is the last rotary EVER, so get em while you can."
Answer: Nothing
I would take this 'news' with a grain of salt. Last week, the lead designer said the technology IS THERE for a rotary platform that would compete with 911/GTR, but the timing isnt right. This news sounds more like a damage control marketing strategy. I guarantee it'll be all over the hack 'auto sites', like insideline & car and driver, by Monday. Mission accomplished.
Last edited by Old Rotor; 10-21-2009 at 06:41 PM.
10-21-2009, 06:34 PM
#45
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- from the start mazda said the renesis is not good for a turbo because of heat in the exhaust ports
- a certain tuner who worked with turbo renesis engines from the start had large problems with them... oddly enough in the exhaust area
- there are pictures of mazda's supercharged renesis project that was abandoned... which would confirm the above since obviously with an engine that has trouble with fuel mileage and has huge exhaust temperatures - turbo would have been the first thing to investigate, not to mention also the traditional thing to investigate
- supercharging has inherit parasitic losses which would probably kill mpg and therefore any production chance after fuel prices went through the roof
you can turbo a renesis...though the facts seem to say mazda never found a cost efficient and reliable way to do it on an engine they'd be giving a 50k mileage warranty on
10-21-2009, 06:39 PM
#46
Wouldn't call it a conspiracy so much a common sense. its FY2010, and mazda plans to sell the current 8 through FY2012 or even FY2013. That's a long time, so its a bit early to start generating excitement about the next rotary, when there's a perfectly fine model that could use a boost in sales right now.
.Paul.
10-21-2009, 07:02 PM
#47
To me, even if the 16X had produced the same maximum power but produced an even more flexible powerband, had better reliability than the 2004-2008 design (here all they have to do is do what they did before 2004 and returned to doing in 2009), and reduced idle fuel consumption, then it would be a win for me and I'd be interested in the car it came in.
That being said, I am given to understand that the 10A and the 12A had the same rotor widths identified in the 16X patent as desirable, so I would be open to an FI 10A or 12A version of the Renesis, even if the factory FI only added enough power to make up for the loss of displacement. I don't know if there would be a cost saving to Mazda from such an approach or not; but I think it's a worthwhile line or enquiry.
10-21-2009, 07:03 PM
#48
Row faster, I hear banjos
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Well I've thought long and hard about picking up a R3 due to the improvements in the '09 engine and the body style. I'll hold out a bit longer and see if Mazda releases another special edition sport model closer to the end of production for the current gen RX-8.
10-21-2009, 08:40 PM
#49
Super Moderator
10A's and 12A's have different rotor widths...the 16X has the same width as a 12A, but similar longer stroke or rotors as used in the 13A in FWD R130 Coupe which has 10A width rotors.
Look, Mazda are not going to make a "new" halo car if there is not reasonable sales (units), they just won't do it in the current economic climate.
We can all dream about the FD RX-7, but this car was twice the price with twice the issues.
Mazda already invested quite a few million with the upgrades to the Series II RX-8 with new face lift and over 60 mechanical changes from suspension, trim and the mostly on the engines lubricity and cooling improvements.
I think they were hoping on a sales boost, this has not eventuated, because their 2 nd biggest Rotary market (outside of Japan) the UK, their Government had a carbon tax (road tax) increased to ridiculous levels on an annual basis which effected all high carbon emitting cars, owners of 2006 on wards RX-8's have to find an additional 400 pounds ($1000 AU) every year in tax, so resale and sales have dived there.
Plus yesterday I found 2 UK owners with dead engines that Mazda UK will not replace, so again we have this bad rotary reputation putting buyers and owners off the brand and engine, there was high hope a "New Generation" in the motoring world would support the RX-8..
So if Mazda can not reduce exhaust CO2 by 60% and improve Fuel economy by 30% they have problems, not enough will buy any new rotary.
IMO the Rotary is not DEAD, but it may go on a long holiday until maybe twin fuel becomes mainstream, or some technological breakthrough.
And if the series 2 RENESIS proves to be more reliable..
All I see are too many hurdles...at this time..
Look, Mazda are not going to make a "new" halo car if there is not reasonable sales (units), they just won't do it in the current economic climate.
We can all dream about the FD RX-7, but this car was twice the price with twice the issues.
Mazda already invested quite a few million with the upgrades to the Series II RX-8 with new face lift and over 60 mechanical changes from suspension, trim and the mostly on the engines lubricity and cooling improvements.
I think they were hoping on a sales boost, this has not eventuated, because their 2 nd biggest Rotary market (outside of Japan) the UK, their Government had a carbon tax (road tax) increased to ridiculous levels on an annual basis which effected all high carbon emitting cars, owners of 2006 on wards RX-8's have to find an additional 400 pounds ($1000 AU) every year in tax, so resale and sales have dived there.
Plus yesterday I found 2 UK owners with dead engines that Mazda UK will not replace, so again we have this bad rotary reputation putting buyers and owners off the brand and engine, there was high hope a "New Generation" in the motoring world would support the RX-8..
So if Mazda can not reduce exhaust CO2 by 60% and improve Fuel economy by 30% they have problems, not enough will buy any new rotary.
IMO the Rotary is not DEAD, but it may go on a long holiday until maybe twin fuel becomes mainstream, or some technological breakthrough.
And if the series 2 RENESIS proves to be more reliable..
All I see are too many hurdles...at this time..
Last edited by ASH8; 10-21-2009 at 08:42 PM.