agisd

Because the US is the most important market for them and competition is tough.

Do you have cars in the UK? Cars to test drive?

They have them in the US. We don't even get cars to testdrive in Canada...

ChrisW

I agree the US is their most important market (half of all RX-8's will be sold there). But what could they gain by lying like this? Very soon they will be found out. Then they will have to give out the real hp numbers. And in the process they damage their reputation and lose future sales.

Having said all that, all I'm saying is it would make no sense for Mazda to do this. Companies sometimes do dumb things, so I guess you can't rule it out.

pelucidor

I don't believe for one second Mazda is trying to mislead anyone on purpose.

I am hoping that next week Mazda will tell us or their dealer network that everything is working as planned and after X miles the fuel economy and power will improve (really wish I knew what X is).

Or several weeks/months from now they will announce a problem and the fix for it via a recall (ECU remap?). Or (worst case) announce a problem and state it cannot be fixed and here is your money back if you are unhappy as per Miata fiasco (total PR disaster, potential death of RX-7 etc).

From the RotaryNews post it looks like things are working as designed, but more details released through a more official channel are still needed. In any event I am still looking forward to my RX-8 (will still be the fastest car I've ever owned no matter what the hp says) which has been delayed yet another week - perhaps it will be delayed again until this issue is cleared up...

DonG35Miata

Where is this comparison video?

nash

My RX-8 is set to arrive in the next week or two and I will be more than happy to dyno it in mid-late September at the same dyno I dyno my S4 at. After a 600 mile breakin, I am taking the RX-8 on a road trip from Dallas through Colorado and Vegas to Los Angeles and back... so I should have 4000+ miles on the clock when I get back. It should also be a bit cooler by that time and hopefully I can help put this to rest...

klauber

I'm worried about how much faith one can put into Maza's specifications if indeed the power loss is as low as intial claims seem to indicate.

I'm also a little worried about the Bridgestone tires... but, I digress.

brothervoodoo

The first 3 dyno's gave us some interesting food for thought. Allow some cars to reach the 5000/mi mark and then dyno again. If we are still seeing only 187hp then Mazda screwed the pooch and misadvertised its product, plain and simple.

I'm actually surprised some long time posters saying "well, if it feels good, who cares". I'm not a numbers junkie but advertising a product that misstates its information by 20-30 horses is a huge faux pas.

Now that being said, I ask that everybody stay in check and calm down. Feeding rumor and speculation on this board only scares away the potential newbie car buyers that visit the forum and elevates the "hand-ringing" from you forum junkies.

It would be nice if Mazda had great communication, they don't, pre-order program proved that. Let's wait and get some good dyno's after some extended driving and let's see where the chips lay.

BTW, got my car last night...

Lensman

OK people, listen up. Here's a section of the latest review of the RX-8 in the UK's Top-Gear magazine. It's a US spec car which they drove to Vegas with a Crossfire, 350Z and TT. When they were comparing the straight line acceleration of the RX-8 and Crossfire they said this (see image). Now the lack of power at high revs mentioned here stinks of these dyno results. Something is wrong. Especially as the RX-8 is supposed to be nearly 1 second faster 0-60 than the Crossfire.

PS: don't get hung up on the 228bhp stated for the RX-8: they're giving the UK power even though it's a 247bhp US car.

Hercules

I think Lensman, that the article rings true..

In my car, the power 'surge' is mostly from 3000+ RPMs... It doesn't pull as hard at 8000 as it does from 3000.

My understanding was that the car would get faster as the revs climb and it seems not to be the case.

In any case, it's quick enough for me though I wouldn't mind seeing some additional power on the high end. I'm having a blast throwing this car into a corner though it would be nice when I wind out that motor... it works for me.

Just my $.02... I'm not really worried about anything but I did notice a deficiency at the top end as the article points out. I think there may be more truth than is being told about this issue on the part of Mazda... hopefully that will result in a few bonuses for us if they say they have to fix it.

LL7

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/fe...5scc_mazdarx8/

I assume you have all seen this article. Have the people who have run their cars on the dyno checked for the opening of the third ports? Is this possible?

Sorry if I have missed this discussion, I have only found this site recently. I have a Red RX-8 coming in in about two weeks, and now I am getting a bit worried - though not enough to cancle the order.

Hercules

Too bad you are a dick.

You even register again after you're banned because you want to cause trouble... sad really; just get a life maybe you will have better things to do.

Jimmylove

too late. You're already a dick.

RX-8 Zoomster

No, all emissions should be the same in the states.

However, in regards to whether the ECU got remapped to meet US emissions when they reached port .....
Well, there's a way to put this theory to rest. Doesn't our Japanese friends have the same hi-performance engine (HP #) as us? If so, then dyno one of their cars. If it dynos higher, then just maybe our cars did get "detuned" to meet some kind of emissions standard.

Also, it wouldn't be bad if our overseas friends dyno'd their cars anyway. They should have more mileage accumulated then us over here. May give a more accurate reading.

P00Man

i really dont see how this can be happening...

didnt someone say, long ago, that mazda has been testing the renesis for something on the order of 10 years?

on the dynos the engines were running "pig rich" in the upper rev range, i got this impression that this sucks power, wouldnt that have to do something with the ECU and not the engine at all? if thats the case, which it probably is, then its either that
1: ECU remaps istelf after x miles
2: ECU has to be tuned in such a way to meet emissions standards........

but, as has been said, if #2 is the case, why wouldnt they say it?
and doesnt the car get less HP in cali, due to emissions contols, and isnt that where all of these tests are coming from?

btw, who was that moron?
________
Lasik eye surgery advice

wakeech

why the hell does everyone even think this is possible??? running AF of 11:1 is exactly what you DON'T want to do to be more emissions complaint...

IRTMVEZ

Let me get this clear: Sport Compact Car is saying that the prototype RX-8 it tested had power valves that became stuck shut and, hense, their test car was significantly underpowered, as were the prototypes other magazines tested (based on test results) BUT...final production units should have the problem fixed BUT...RX-8 owners who have had their cars dynoed are coming up with horsepower figures pretty much in line with what Sport Compact Car dynoed on their 'defective' prototype? This at least mildly suggests the typical RX-8 may run fine for a few kms but then the power valves almost invariably stick shut. Is Mazda expecting them to magically become unstuck at some unspecified later mileage? Were they hoping no one would notice?

Now this is starting to sound just silly.

DonG35Miata
Where is this comparison video?

The link was at this forum but I think it's down. Most people have seen the show by now: an S2000, RX-8, G35 Sedan, WRX, Acura RSX and Miata square off for 5 laps around a fairly sharp-cornered track. The S2000 hands everyone their ***, and the RX-8 barely keeps ahead of the last place Miata. I'm not sure if it's credible, but the RX-8's poor performance is a lot more understandable if it's as underpowered as it's looking to be.

pelucidor

You may be mixing up two different issues. In the case of the SCC dyno test I think the graph would flat-line at around 6400rpm if the tertiary ports did not open. This is not the case with the production car dynos which have a perfectly shaped graph with dips where ports open etc except the graph should be a little steeper. Wakeech - what did I get wrong in my statement?

P00Man

oops wak, thought that i had heard someone say that the ECU could be tuned to meet emissions or something along those lines


ive got another question though...
are those graphs direclty linked to the ECU?
if so, then it could be the ECU is sending the message for the ports to open, which is shown on the graph, but they really arent opening


im actually positive that that isnt the case, as its just completely out of the blue and has nothing to do with dynoing and such...

just throwing ideas outhere though, however idiotic they may be lol
________
couple Cam

BillK

I just had to inject a little sanity into the HP worries.

Yes, I hope Mazda does say something soon, and I further expect they will have to do something to make things right if it turns out that for whatever reason the 247 HP Renesis is really only 200 HP or less. Further Mazda needs to come clean now - my apprehension is not about whether the HP numbers sync or not but rather what their reaction to the situation will be; nothing will turn me off Mazda quicker than if they stay silent and do not acknowledge the dyno results are not what one would expect and offer an explanation, even if it's only that a rotary needs to break in for 2000 - 3000 miles before developing full power.

But none of this detracts from the experience I had and the stupid smile I had on my face when I test drove an RX-8 this past Tuesday. None of it detracts from the wonderful sound and feel of a rotary engine that I haven't been able to experience for almost ten years (I didn't fit in an FD RX-7.) The car still felt fast. It still had that wonderful turbine feel. It still handled better than most other cars available. In short it was still what I expected from the RX-8 and didn't magically become a slug or undesirable just because dyno tests to date aren't showing the numbers one would expect.

So if you want to cancel your order now or not buy yours when it comes in because of all this feel free - but if yours was a Winning Blue Metallic 6MT Sport with the spare tire option, please let me know which dealer your order was with so perhaps my dealer can do a dealer trade. :D

jdl

...or a Lightning Yellow :p

Prowla

Excellent post, BillK.

Love for the car despite other people's doubts and feelings of being misled is a good thing. I don't care about the dyno #'s or the nitpicky stuff, the car is still amazing to me. Of course, others beg to differ, but to each their own .

GoShogun

I talked to a guy at my Mazda dealership regarding this problem and he told me he would contact someone at Mazda regarding this issue. He got back to me today and told me that a fuel remapping definitly occurs however he also told me that this should only make a difference of about 15 horsepower at the flywheel after the remapping. Also, he told me that the remapping would occur at around 1500 miles, which wouldn't explain the 2200 mile dyno, but might explain the guys that dynoed at around 600.

TurboSE

The more I think about it the more I believe that it has been detuned on purpose. I would imagine that along with the fuel map the ecu will switch to a more aggresive timing also. All N/A rotaries like lower octane better because of the long combustion chamber which requires an easier igniting fuel. The fact that premium is recommended fuel makes me believe that they not only leaned out the afr but also went for more aggresive timing to go with the slightly higher compression rotors. I still find it hard to believe that the side exhaust port configuration is better for power though.

GN1270

You guys all seem to be missing the most important factor here, and if you do care about your cars stated HP #'s you should be worried, and that is that Mazda is denying any affiliation to the stated HP #'s. They are saying that they didn't do the testing, and not only are they saying that, but they are also saying (lying) that they did no HP testing of their own on cars to substantiate those numbers. There is no way any motor, not even a diesel will loosen up that much at any milage, and HP to the wheels is HP to the wheels on any car no matter what motor, what tires, what transmission, etc. I will bet the cars tested show NO more hp at 5000 miles than at 2000 miles, but i guess anything is possible. People were right in saying that most could care less about the hp. Most will test drive the car, and most will never rev high enough to get into the cars powerband, but on the other hand, alot of cars are sold because of how they do at the drag strip (especially when they are $30k sports cars). I hope everything does work out though. I like seeing Subaru, Mazda, and Mitsubishi having faster cars than Honda and Toyota.

RX-8 Zoomster

Mazda has not denied anything yet nor are they lying. There is not "official" word from Mazda on this.

As to the post on another thread:
Mazda North America is NOT lying. You are either not reading it clearly or you are definately take it out of context. They are just stating that these "independent" dyno tests and mag performance tests were not conducted by Mazda, and they can not substantiate the claims or results. What's so hard about understanding that. They also go on and say that they stand behind their numbers (Mazda's).

In closing, if it ends up that the power loss is 23% to the rear, so be it. I didn't buy the car based on the stated HP number. I bought it for the styling and performance. Is it depressing to have that much loss, yes, but if the performance times don't suffer, I don't care. I would be impressed that Mazda would be getting those kind of performance numbers from a car pushing 187 hp equal to vehicles that have 10-20% more HP. Mazda NEVER released a HP number for the rear wheels, only at the crank (247ps). I don't see any indication that they are lying regarding HP numbers.