AndyPearce

I agree that 3 tests with very similar results are enough reason to raise doubts and questions. The third set of results was on a car with enough mileage for it to be run in.

Mazda need to investigate and publish it's findings to stop this issue snowballing. They either thave to explain the results or disprove them.

I don't believe Mazda would release this car if the performance figures were so far below those punlished but it's difficult to see a logical explanation.

IRTMVEZ

Sounds like the 160 HP Miata fiasco all over again. Maybe that's why the RX-8 got slaughtered in the Best Motoring comparison video.

rotorex

well, have you guys seen this thread?
https://www.rx8club.com/lounge-4/new-best-motoring-hot-version-tuned-rx8-7936/

sounds promising

rx7 rage

GREAT....problmes already with the rx8...

Doctorr

I have to agree with Mr. Keech & Mr. Quiklude, there are actually three ways to look at the issue -

The optimist- 'the glass is half full',

The pessimist- 'no, the glass is half empty'

'Wully' from the Simpsons- 'where's the other half of my fookin drink?? Fill 'er up before I come over that bar an' glass yer, yer panty wearin' sasenach!'
.
.
.
doc

TJRX8

Not sure if this was mentioned but Ford had the same problem with the Mustang GT a few years ago. They did fix it but don't recall how. I'll search the web and see what's out there.
Anyone else recall?

BTW I am concerned and hope it gets resolved.

Edit: It was the 1999 Cobra

1999 Cobra Problems

Rich

I'm not worried - yet. It's only been a few days since the second dyno was done, and the third was yesterday. It takes a big company a little while to:
1. Hear about the problem
2. Get the real answer interanally
3. Figure out what to do about it (deny, explain, fess up, etc.)
4. Announce the response

I would think that there should be some sort of formal announcement, press release, or at least an official reply here and on rotarynews.com by Monday. The longer it takes the further it will spread, and the more it will damage the company.

I suspect that this is simply an issue with the ECU that's completely normal. If Mazda makes an announcement soon to that effect, I'll be fine. If the car is really down around 215-220 HP, which is what it appears, then I will be extremely disappointed. It will take a very, very long time before it blows over if they misrepresented the power output. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it severely hit RX-8 sales and even killed off the RX-7 development. In fact, even if it's normal and they don't come up with a decent explanation quickly it could severely hurt the company and the future of the rotary engine. I really hope that doesn't happen.

Hercules

I don't see the big deal.... if the dyno is bad, okay...

But if the car still does the quarter in 14.5s and the dash to 60 in 5.9s... what the hell is the difference? By my hand timing I got right around 6 seconds on a dash to 60, so it's not too far off I think.

Research needs to be done on it sure, but you guys are really being number junkies. The people that have the car and are enjoying it are happy with the power (because it's not that bad), and thrilled with the *handling*. Isn't this what this car was about from the beginning anyway?

Everybody posting about the power can be concerned but for me.. I'm happy as I am and if there is a problem with a 'sticking port' as was before and it gets fixed.. additional power is just gravy. I'm not stoplight racing and the car is as fast as advertised, so who cares about dyno pulls?

*is confused*

pelucidor

The bid deal is not for you or me or others reasonably happy with performance. The big deal is for Mazda - they will have to restate power output, be rediculed by the vast majority of people on the web and in magazines, tarnish their image even more and probably be hit by many lawsuits for false advertising. If they offer to buy back the pre-order cars (as they did for the Miata) then that is a big expense (and black eye) for them. Then Ford will pull the plug on future rotary development as Mazda just couldn't get it right even after many quality control delays to US rollout, and there will be no more RX-7, no more high power RENESIS, no updates to the RX-8 etc. That's a big deal to everyone eventually.

I really hope the power loss is intentional, but then it would be documented somewhere within Mazda and probably should have been disclosed or 'accidentally' leaked out by now to allay everyones fears. If it's a simple ECU bug that can be fixed with a flash upgrade then that is not too bad, but still embarassing to have a recall on a car that was delayed over a month at port to make sure it was 'perfect'.

Rich

Herc -

I don't even own one, so I really don't care personally at all. I'm also not a numbers junkie, but I do care about this getting settled.

Most people buy car based on looks and HP figures. It's sad, but true. Very few people will choose to purchase a car based on how it handles. Most people don't even really know what good handling is. Even if they did want to buy a car based on handling, most wouldn't think of Mazda. You've seen the commercial that claims that the Cadillac handles better than some BMW, or the Pontiac commercials that claim that they bring "driving excitement", or whatever. I'd bet that most people actually think those things are true!

In addition, Mazda doesn't have a strong positive association with most people. Either they know of Mazda for the 4-banger 626 they rented, the cute little Miata (whose club racing and performance pedigree they know nothing about), or the unreliable RX-7s. Not a great image. Most of us know differently, but we're not the typical customer that Mazda's trying desperately to win over with the RX-8. To that market, a mis-statement of the HP of this newfangled engine that ain't go no cylinders is a confirmation that it's something to be avoided. If the RX-8 doesn't win over a significant number of people who otherwise wouldn't have given any Mazda product a second look, the RX-8 won't be a success, and the rotary will die. That would be a major blow to Mazda - one that could even signal the end of the company. Another problem would be that if Mazda overstated the HP numbers, all of the armchair car "experts" at the office will have further ammunition to blast the RX-8. Those people can have a significant impact on what cars non-enthusiasts purchase. The 350Z had and still has nothing but positive word of mouth from that contingent. If the RX-8 doesn't, it'll significantly hurt sales.

I'm intentionally overstating the case somewhat to make a point. But that's basically why I care, even though I'm not an owner. I want the new RX-7, and if this RX-8 isn't a success there won't be another RX-7.

SlowLude

Wow, this is a great post! I have an RX-8 on order, but I'm actually thinking of postponing the order until these issues have been resolved or even cancelling the order. This "problem" is quite serious because its affecting potential buyers like me. I, for one, expect to get what I pay for. Right now, I'm thinking that if I put down a couple thousand dollars more, I can get myself a G35.. a car that doesn't lie on their numbers, supposedly have better service and quality control. I guess I'll just wait and see...

mac

Hey Hercules, congrats! As far as I can tell you are the first to claim 6 s in a 0-60! From what RPM did you launch at to get that kind of time? Did you even get out of 2nd? BTW what is your odometer reading these days?

antman_x

I agree w/Herc. Beside IMO the RX8 looks better than the G35. I'm amazed at the design features and how the whole rotary theme is all over the car. Plus G35's don't come in red w/red&blk interiors. bad ***.

RomanoM

I think some who are concentrating on the numbers and saying they don't care, are missing the point.

If the car is missing 30bhp there must be a reason.

One of the possible reasons is a design or manufacturing defect.

Wouldn't you want to make sure that's not the problem?



Let me ask it this way:

Do you mind if you have an engine that's defective?

I just want to know what's going on, right now I just have questions not conclusions.


The reason I don't just dismiss this off-hand is that the number of recalls for all manufacturers have increased substantially in the past 5 years. And some have been biggies and inexplicable.


If BMW's M division can produce an engine with an obvious design defect and not catch it, anything is possible.

BillK

OK, here's the obvious question - doesn't Mazda offer the 247 HP RX-8 in Japan? If so, the JDM RX-8s have been out for quite a while now, haven't they?

If so, and if we haven't heard a big hue and cry from Japan yet, that would seem to indicate the "problem" is either break-in related or US emissions-related...

Boozehound

I'm gonna have to go with RomanoM on this one. The main issue here is whether or not this car was built with a serious design flaw. I dont know about you guys, but I don't want to have premature engine failure, or any of the associated risks involved in a product that was engineered to certain specs and then doesn't meet them in the production run. Maybe Mazda might have to step up to the plate here and eventually say something - if this was taken care of properly, quickly, and painlessly - I doubt any of us would mind, and it might not be such a big deal when it did (as opposed to the M3 disaster or the infamous 99 Cobra).

Come on Maz - work with us.

ChrisW

Can I just ask a dumb question here: aren't there different emissions standards for different states in the US? So would vehicles in different states have their engines mapped differently and maybe have different power outputs?

agisd

No, the cars are the same in the US/Canada. It's too expensive and unpractical to do you you're describing.

agisd

I buy the dyno results.

It seems to me that Mazda would like to offer a 247HP version of the car but due to emmisions tuning they could not do it. I dunno why they released 247HP specs. Maybe a couple of engines actually produced that horsepower.

I bet that the engine horsepower is similar to that of the euro-model (227HP).

Adding this issue to the availability problem, I am looking at other cars now...

RomanoM

The beginning of an answer:

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...7997#post87997

pelucidor

Getting better - a few more details (does something change in the engine at X miles?) and I would be happy.

chikai

wow...5000 miles for the engine to peak in HP.

jeez...I don't know of any other manuf that requires that.


But I agree w/ Hercules statement. If the car runs the numbers it promised (1/4 and 0-60mph) then I would be satisfied.

Compared to say a Integra Type-R, which probably weighs less and has, I believe, slightly higher whp, the RX-8 would still be faster.

RomanoM

Actually 5,000 miles isn't that uncommon. German motors don't make full power until about then.

But, usually it's only a small difference between new and "seasoned" engines. Maybe an increase of 5%, so if new there's 200whp then after the break-in you'll get 210whp.

However, there was an Audi A4 3.0 CVT that did 0-60MPH in 7.2s new and 6.5s after 40,000 miles. Chances are there was something wrong with that engine that was rectified during a service visit. Those numbers would suggest nearly a 50bhp increase after 40,000 miles (not likely).

ChrisW

I doubt this, because the Euro spec model was originally supposed to be 237 hp. When they found they couldn't make this they changed the spec to 228 hp.

Why would they come clean and admit it when they couldn't meet the Euro spec but keep quiet about problems with the US cars? Especially when they are far more likely to be sued in the US than in Europe.

Hercules

Get the G35 and don't let the door hit ya...