When does the RX-8 really start pulling in normal driving condition trying to pass...
05-12-2007, 02:59 AM
#26
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Double clutching is absolutely not useless in modern cars. Simply rev matching does nothing to accelerate the input shaft of the transmission leaving the synchros to do the work. It does offer some benefits in that the clutch takes less of a beating when you come off it. Matching revs while in neutral with your foot OFF THE CLUTCH PEDAL, will spool up the input shaft of the gear box and saves wear and tear on the clutch and other driveline components.
There are plenty of threads on this forum complaining about issues with synchros and the resultant grinding. Many (not neccessarily all) of these issues are a result of excessive wear on the synchros from downshifting with big gaps in the RPM ranges between the two gears. Had these operaters correctly performed a well timed (ie slow and precise) double de-clutched, rev matched (and if braking heel-toe'd) downshifts, these problems could be avoided.
Its not at all hard to do, it just takes a little practice. Its very rewarding and it allows you to grab gears easily without putting excessive wear and tear on the car. Furthermore, I'm sure all the people on this forum with road racing experience can tell you what happens when you really botch a downshift in a RWD car: Rear wheel lock up and insta-spin! There's a reason that any credible racing school will spend time teaching there students how to heel toe and double clutch. Its a track necessity, and very much worthwhile on the street.
There are plenty of threads on this forum complaining about issues with synchros and the resultant grinding. Many (not neccessarily all) of these issues are a result of excessive wear on the synchros from downshifting with big gaps in the RPM ranges between the two gears. Had these operaters correctly performed a well timed (ie slow and precise) double de-clutched, rev matched (and if braking heel-toe'd) downshifts, these problems could be avoided.
Its not at all hard to do, it just takes a little practice. Its very rewarding and it allows you to grab gears easily without putting excessive wear and tear on the car. Furthermore, I'm sure all the people on this forum with road racing experience can tell you what happens when you really botch a downshift in a RWD car: Rear wheel lock up and insta-spin! There's a reason that any credible racing school will spend time teaching there students how to heel toe and double clutch. Its a track necessity, and very much worthwhile on the street.
05-12-2007, 03:53 AM
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Rev matching with the clutch pedal depressed does nothing to help the synchros. If you have the clutch depressed the drive from the motor to the gear box is severed and the input shaft begins to decelerate instantly.
I guess my point is, double clutching is not really any harder or slower than not double clutching, and its cheap insurance. Why not just do it? I find it enjoyable too! Think of it as a free reliability mod.
Its sad to me that doble clutching is a dying art. Footwork really is one fo the fundamental building blocks of being a good race car driver (not that I profess to be anything but an amature hack, but I can downshift nicely if nothing else). Certainly its no longer absolutely necessary in a modern prodution car. It is a legitimate skill however, which offers only upsides for the car and driver. I also find it very rewarding.
Ike, I have no doubt that you take care of your equipment and have gone many happy double clutch free miles. As an evo owner, you also have good taste
I don't mean this whole double clutching thing as a criticism of you or your driving. That said, its nice piece of the driver's craft that I'd rather not see go extinct. So kiddies, learn to double clutch and make me and your gear box a little happier.
I guess my point is, double clutching is not really any harder or slower than not double clutching, and its cheap insurance. Why not just do it? I find it enjoyable too! Think of it as a free reliability mod.
Its sad to me that doble clutching is a dying art. Footwork really is one fo the fundamental building blocks of being a good race car driver (not that I profess to be anything but an amature hack, but I can downshift nicely if nothing else). Certainly its no longer absolutely necessary in a modern prodution car. It is a legitimate skill however, which offers only upsides for the car and driver. I also find it very rewarding.
Ike, I have no doubt that you take care of your equipment and have gone many happy double clutch free miles. As an evo owner, you also have good taste
I don't mean this whole double clutching thing as a criticism of you or your driving. That said, its nice piece of the driver's craft that I'd rather not see go extinct. So kiddies, learn to double clutch and make me and your gear box a little happier.
05-12-2007, 07:35 AM
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Rev matching with the clutch pedal depressed does nothing to help the synchros. If you have the clutch depressed the drive from the motor to the gear box is severed and the input shaft begins to decelerate instantly.
I guess my point is, double clutching is not really any harder or slower than not double clutching, and its cheap insurance. Why not just do it? I find it enjoyable too! Think of it as a free reliability mod.
Its sad to me that doble clutching is a dying art. Footwork really is one fo the fundamental building blocks of being a good race car driver (not that I profess to be anything but an amature hack, but I can downshift nicely if nothing else). Certainly its no longer absolutely necessary in a modern prodution car. It is a legitimate skill however, which offers only upsides for the car and driver. I also find it very rewarding.
Ike, I have no doubt that you take care of your equipment and have gone many happy double clutch free miles. As an evo owner, you also have good taste I don't mean this whole double clutching thing as a criticism of you or your driving. That said, its nice piece of the driver's craft that I'd rather not see go extinct. So kiddies, learn to double clutch and make me and your gear box a little happier.
I guess my point is, double clutching is not really any harder or slower than not double clutching, and its cheap insurance. Why not just do it? I find it enjoyable too! Think of it as a free reliability mod.
Its sad to me that doble clutching is a dying art. Footwork really is one fo the fundamental building blocks of being a good race car driver (not that I profess to be anything but an amature hack, but I can downshift nicely if nothing else). Certainly its no longer absolutely necessary in a modern prodution car. It is a legitimate skill however, which offers only upsides for the car and driver. I also find it very rewarding.
Ike, I have no doubt that you take care of your equipment and have gone many happy double clutch free miles. As an evo owner, you also have good taste
I don't mean this whole double clutching thing as a criticism of you or your driving. That said, its nice piece of the driver's craft that I'd rather not see go extinct. So kiddies, learn to double clutch and make me and your gear box a little happier.Now that I think about it more rev matching is going to preserve gears and bearings and not really synchros. I knew that considering I said synchros are there to take the abuse... Though I'd be curious to know just how quickly the input/lay shaft decelerates, in the second or less it takes to rev match and shift I would bet it's not a whole lot.
However, double clutching is absolutely slower than not double clutching. Especially if you consider that double clutching is used on the upshift as well. We'll drag race in identical cars, you double clutch and I won't, I bet I win
Why not do it? Because I find rowing through the gears as quickly as possible more satisfying than double clutching. I just don't think with todays synchromesh gearboxes it's going to help much in the reliability department and as long as you drive fairly smoothly synchros will last a long long time. I learned to double clutch when I was 15 and doing my first trackday. It was somewhat useful for big downshifts but obviously would serve little use on the upshift unless you're just trying to be extra gentle. I guess I look at double clutching as more of a former necessity rather than an artform. Now if you want to consider heel and toe as another form of double clutching I agree with you.
The thing that I really find sad is how few people in the generations after me know how to drive a manual. I was probably in that last group that learned to drive when most small cars had a manual. Even 16 years ago I was the only one of my friends that learned to drive on a manual, but most of them were taught how to drive an MT even if they didn't learn on it.
Now that I've said all this you do really I'm going to break some synchros this week, right?
05-12-2007, 01:34 PM
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Now that I think about it more rev matching is going to preserve gears and bearings and not really synchros. I knew that considering I said synchros are there to take the abuse... Though I'd be curious to know just how quickly the input/lay shaft decelerates, in the second or less it takes to rev match and shift I would bet it's not a whole lot.
However, double clutching is absolutely slower than not double clutching. Especially if you consider that double clutching is used on the upshift as well. We'll drag race in identical cars, you double clutch and I won't, I bet I win Why not do it? Because I find rowing through the gears as quickly as possible more satisfying than double clutching. I just don't think with todays synchromesh gearboxes it's going to help much in the reliability department and as long as you drive fairly smoothly synchros will last a long long time.
I learned to double clutch when I was 15 and doing my first trackday. It was somewhat useful for big downshifts but obviously would serve little use on the upshift unless you're just trying to be extra gentle. I guess I look at double clutching as more of a former necessity rather than an artform. Now if you want to consider heel and toe as another form of double clutching I agree with you.
The thing that I really find sad is how few people in the generations after me know how to drive a manual. I was probably in that last group that learned to drive when most small cars had a manual. Even 16 years ago I was the only one of my friends that learned to drive on a manual, but most of them were taught how to drive an MT even if they didn't learn on it.
Now that I've said all this you do really I'm going to break some synchros this week, right?
However, double clutching is absolutely slower than not double clutching. Especially if you consider that double clutching is used on the upshift as well. We'll drag race in identical cars, you double clutch and I won't, I bet I win
Why not do it? Because I find rowing through the gears as quickly as possible more satisfying than double clutching. I just don't think with todays synchromesh gearboxes it's going to help much in the reliability department and as long as you drive fairly smoothly synchros will last a long long time. I learned to double clutch when I was 15 and doing my first trackday. It was somewhat useful for big downshifts but obviously would serve little use on the upshift unless you're just trying to be extra gentle. I guess I look at double clutching as more of a former necessity rather than an artform. Now if you want to consider heel and toe as another form of double clutching I agree with you.
The thing that I really find sad is how few people in the generations after me know how to drive a manual. I was probably in that last group that learned to drive when most small cars had a manual. Even 16 years ago I was the only one of my friends that learned to drive on a manual, but most of them were taught how to drive an MT even if they didn't learn on it.
Now that I've said all this you do really I'm going to break some synchros this week, right?
Most well engineered modern cars are built with robust synchromesh, so unless your a complete bonehead, they probably will hold up for a good long time. The rx8 synchros aren't super hot. I bought my car used with 8k on it and the second gear synchro was pretty roughed. If you try to downshift into second with out double clutching on my car its pretty much not going to happen. As its a "wear" item, the dealer doesn't give a ****. Since I double clutch anyways, its not an issue for me. I'm just worried about when I eventually sell it!
05-12-2007, 11:15 PM
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From a stop how do you enter the expressway, 1st and 2nd through 6 and then dwon shift to 3rd then back up through 6? You got to build rpms right, I just graudually shift through the smooth 6 spd but wonder what would hapen if I could down shift, but I have the salesman in the passeger seat. hOW MUCH uPPUMM would I feel?
The way I'm doing it I feel the electric car feel smooth but no torque. I've always wondered what a downshift would do.
The way I'm doing it I feel the electric car feel smooth but no torque. I've always wondered what a downshift would do.
Last edited by donack456; 05-12-2007 at 11:20 PM.
05-13-2007, 12:08 AM
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From a stop how do you enter the expressway, 1st and 2nd through 6 and then dwon shift to 3rd then back up through 6? You got to build rpms right, I just graudually shift through the smooth 6 spd but wonder what would hapen if I could down shift, but I have the salesman in the passeger seat. hOW MUCH uPPUMM would I feel?
The way I'm doing it I feel the electric car feel smooth but no torque. I've always wondered what a downshift would do.
The way I'm doing it I feel the electric car feel smooth but no torque. I've always wondered what a downshift would do.
05-14-2007, 12:29 PM
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v don't think I understand your question. Can you rephrase it?
I don't think I understand your question. Can you rephrase it?
How do you enter the expressway from a stop while in 1st gear? Do you run through the gears and then down shift to peak rpms, bust on into the expressway. Several sceniros were this could happen. Cars are in front of you entering one at a time or there is a yeild sign present at Y intersection and cars are coming.
Or do just hold the each gear to redline. Which picks up speed the fastest?
As for double cluchting others can do what they please, I like dbl cluchting to downshift.
How do you enter the expressway from a stop while in 1st gear? Do you run through the gears and then down shift to peak rpms, bust on into the expressway. Several sceniros were this could happen. Cars are in front of you entering one at a time or there is a yeild sign present at Y intersection and cars are coming.
Or do just hold the each gear to redline. Which picks up speed the fastest?
As for double cluchting others can do what they please, I like dbl cluchting to downshift.
Last edited by donack456; 05-14-2007 at 12:33 PM.
05-14-2007, 12:42 PM
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I don't think I understand your question. Can you rephrase it?
How do you enter the expressway from a stop while in 1st gear? Do you run through the gears and then down shift to peak rpms, bust on into the expressway. Several sceniros were this could happen. Cars are in front of you entering one at a time or there is a yeild sign present at Y intersection and cars are coming.
Or do just hold the each gear to redline. Which picks up speed the fastest?
As for double cluchting others can do what they please, I like dbl cluchting to downshift.
How do you enter the expressway from a stop while in 1st gear? Do you run through the gears and then down shift to peak rpms, bust on into the expressway. Several sceniros were this could happen. Cars are in front of you entering one at a time or there is a yeild sign present at Y intersection and cars are coming.
Or do just hold the each gear to redline. Which picks up speed the fastest?
As for double cluchting others can do what they please, I like dbl cluchting to downshift.
05-14-2007, 02:18 PM
#37
like any manual car you downshift for more acceleration. on the highway, below 70mph, use 3rd, above it use 4th. 4th is good to 130, then you go back into 6th and just cruise until you see the next cop.
I rarely go through all the gears, i go 20ish in first, floor second, and then drop into 4th or sixth. 2nd redlined is over the speedlimit almost everywhere in the US. I always get 21-22mpg. doesn't matter if I granny or not, t's get to overdrive as fast as possible and keep it there. On long trips I've gotten up to 27mpg. assuming you don;t do the downshifting fun and can keep it @ 75ish in 6th. that's the sweetspot.
I rarely go through all the gears, i go 20ish in first, floor second, and then drop into 4th or sixth. 2nd redlined is over the speedlimit almost everywhere in the US. I always get 21-22mpg. doesn't matter if I granny or not, t's get to overdrive as fast as possible and keep it there. On long trips I've gotten up to 27mpg. assuming you don;t do the downshifting fun and can keep it @ 75ish in 6th. that's the sweetspot.
05-14-2007, 07:38 PM
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Driving home today and experiencing packed conditions, I thought of this thread and watched the RPM to better address the original question. Situation was as follows:
Merged onto another freeway. The slow lanes are going 22 mph. Fast lanes are going 40. Once a hole opened up, 2nd gear had enough immediate pull to change lanes and accelerate; this was between 3000-4000 rpm. So, no you do not need to redline.
Merged onto another freeway. The slow lanes are going 22 mph. Fast lanes are going 40. Once a hole opened up, 2nd gear had enough immediate pull to change lanes and accelerate; this was between 3000-4000 rpm. So, no you do not need to redline.
05-14-2007, 07:50 PM
#39
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When does the RX-8 really start pulling in normal driving condition trying to pass or entering the freeway?
Now like you know this is not a problem near and around 7k-9k, but under that (and I haven't tried this because the saleman in the passenger seat) you would down shift to make it pick up speed. I've heard that down shifting the RX-8 from 5th to 4th under 5k-6k will not produce more speed. Should I skip 4th and double clucht to 3rd???
I know that entering the expressway with a full blast of speed 7k-9k rpms 60-80mph or more is not a problem, but what happens when you are sitting with cars behind you and a packed highway with little gap for entry?? Will 1st or 2nd 3k-4k get you there or would you hold 1st until 6k then shift to 2nd? Thats sounds abusive for a normal car but the Honda S2000 and RX-8 aren't normal cars with 8k and 9k rpm redlines.
I got to get rid of that weight in the passenger seat to see for myself.
Now like you know this is not a problem near and around 7k-9k, but under that (and I haven't tried this because the saleman in the passenger seat) you would down shift to make it pick up speed. I've heard that down shifting the RX-8 from 5th to 4th under 5k-6k will not produce more speed. Should I skip 4th and double clucht to 3rd???
I know that entering the expressway with a full blast of speed 7k-9k rpms 60-80mph or more is not a problem, but what happens when you are sitting with cars behind you and a packed highway with little gap for entry?? Will 1st or 2nd 3k-4k get you there or would you hold 1st until 6k then shift to 2nd? Thats sounds abusive for a normal car but the Honda S2000 and RX-8 aren't normal cars with 8k and 9k rpm redlines.
I got to get rid of that weight in the passenger seat to see for myself.
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