Synthetic Oil....two merged "warning" threads.
06-30-2006, 10:20 PM
#51
rotor rocket
you are talking out of your ***...
this is from the owners manual.... yes i got it out of my car..
engine oil. api service SL or ilsac GF-111
uh the tranny fluid is gl-4!!!
no where in the manual does it recomend or not recomend syn oil...
it does make a point of 5w20 is for epa reasons...
beers
you are talking out of your ***...
this is from the owners manual.... yes i got it out of my car..
engine oil. api service SL or ilsac GF-111
uh the tranny fluid is gl-4!!!
no where in the manual does it recomend or not recomend syn oil...
it does make a point of 5w20 is for epa reasons...
beers
06-30-2006, 10:38 PM
#52
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Synthetic Oil? ...Bad! Bad! Bad!
Let us finish these protracted discussions once and for all! Why try to "rewrite" what Mazda USA and the oil manufacturers warn against.
What part of "do not use synthetic oil", "synthetic not recommended" etc. do you not understand?
Once again, I must post the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
How many times do you have to read the warnings from both Mazda RX-8 Owner Manuals and the people that make the oil?
Read this info from Quaker State
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/ca...ow.asp#warranty
Your engine will be seriously compromised by synthetic oil, so stop using it, go back to a good conventional GF-4 oil and hit the redline in some lower gears a few times. Hopefully, that might reverse the pending harm caused by synththetic oil.
Do I care what you use? Not one damn bit. It's your car, your money and so forth, but at least get the facts straight from Mazda and the oil companies.
What part of "do not use synthetic oil", "synthetic not recommended" etc. do you not understand?
Once again, I must post the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
How many times do you have to read the warnings from both Mazda RX-8 Owner Manuals and the people that make the oil?
Read this info from Quaker State
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/ca...ow.asp#warranty
Your engine will be seriously compromised by synthetic oil, so stop using it, go back to a good conventional GF-4 oil and hit the redline in some lower gears a few times. Hopefully, that might reverse the pending harm caused by synththetic oil.
Do I care what you use? Not one damn bit. It's your car, your money and so forth, but at least get the facts straight from Mazda and the oil companies.
06-30-2006, 10:49 PM
#54
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re bad link for Quaker State Motor Oils
06-30-2006, 10:50 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by Rotor Rocket
Your engine will be seriously compromised by synthetic oil....
So are you speaking from personal experience or are you just regurgitating something you read online?
06-30-2006, 10:56 PM
#56
woo. It has been 10 minutes since we had a syn oil argument, time to ramp it up again!
Seriously, there is no reason to rehash this again. We have more than enough threads covering this subject. Do what you want with your car - but also keep in mind there's a lot of old info out there that might have applied in the past, that doesn't for the renesis.
Seriously, there is no reason to rehash this again. We have more than enough threads covering this subject. Do what you want with your car - but also keep in mind there's a lot of old info out there that might have applied in the past, that doesn't for the renesis.
06-30-2006, 11:00 PM
#57
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Go to link below and find the answer, or read Quaker State's posistion on synth oil posted below. I'm now out of this discussion.
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp
Myth #3
Using synthetic motor oil will void a manufacturer's warranty.
Fact
As long as the synthetic product meets the viscosity and performance requirements outlined in the vehicle’s owner’s manual, using synthetic oil will not interfere with the warranty coverage. However, one exception would be the rotary (Wankel) engine used in certain Mazda vehicles, which recommend against the use of synthetic oil in that particular engine.
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp
Myth #3
Using synthetic motor oil will void a manufacturer's warranty.
Fact
As long as the synthetic product meets the viscosity and performance requirements outlined in the vehicle’s owner’s manual, using synthetic oil will not interfere with the warranty coverage. However, one exception would be the rotary (Wankel) engine used in certain Mazda vehicles, which recommend against the use of synthetic oil in that particular engine.
06-30-2006, 11:06 PM
#58
I read it, and for every point you make, I can make a counter point.
RP sells synthetic oil, they recommend it for rotarys:
http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/whichoil.html
Racing Beat and Petit both endorse the use of synthetic.
People have been using synthetic in RX-7 for many years too.
Mazda did their testing on the rx-8 using dino oil, and that's what they recommend. I'm still using dino oil in mine, but I wouldn't have a problem going to synthetic.
The info you're quoting is based on very old data.
RP sells synthetic oil, they recommend it for rotarys:
http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/whichoil.html
Racing Beat and Petit both endorse the use of synthetic.
People have been using synthetic in RX-7 for many years too.
Mazda did their testing on the rx-8 using dino oil, and that's what they recommend. I'm still using dino oil in mine, but I wouldn't have a problem going to synthetic.
The info you're quoting is based on very old data.
06-30-2006, 11:08 PM
#59
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wow, thats weird, as both my service writer (who i spoke with about using synthetic in my 8) and my oil distributor say that synthetic can be used. and my manual states that as long as the oil meets the specifications listed, its fine.
(copied from royals purple's website)
Rotary Engines
Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?
Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.
More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:
In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.
Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.
Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?
Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.
In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.
Here are some facts:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.
Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.
I heard that synthetic oil doesn't burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.
If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.
Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.
Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 – 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)
Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?
No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.
I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?
No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).
Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?
Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.
If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?
In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.
For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.
A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).
(copied from royals purple's website)
Rotary Engines
Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?
Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.
More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:
In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.
Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.
Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?
Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.
In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.
Here are some facts:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.
Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.
I heard that synthetic oil doesn't burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.
If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.
Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.
Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 – 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)
Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?
No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.
I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?
No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).
Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?
Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.
If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?
In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.
For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.
A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).
06-30-2006, 11:12 PM
#61
In 1979, Racing Beat began testing synthetic lubrication products. Without a doubt, the best synthetic oils do perform well in extreme heat (over 300 F) and extreme cold (below 32 F), but by the nature of Mazda's rotary engine, the oil temperature never exceeds 250 F without severe engine damage due to other factors. In Souther California, we have difficulty seeing the low-temperature benefits: however, when we put synthetic lubricants in the engine, transmission, and differential in our IMSA GTU race car, we immediately saw what we later found to be a common result: The oil temperature in all three locations dropped 5 to 10 F for the same operating conditions. This is apparently due to two factors: reduced friction between sliding surfaces, and reduced foaming. As we continued to use synthetic oil products it became clear that they genuinely reduced wear. We also found benefits in street use. On two occassions, cars with "scratchy" transmissions synchronizers were completely cured by a change to synthetic gear lube. After many years of experience with these products we have observed only one problem: because of the reduced friction, the time necessary to break in an engine, transmission, or limted slip differential (standard differentials are no problem) is excessively long, so we recommend using mineral oil in all three for a time to ensure rapid break in."
06-30-2006, 11:13 PM
#62
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06-30-2006, 11:14 PM
#63
Mazda Motorsport (now Mazdaspeed) printed in the 1997 Competition Parts Catalog:
"When breaking in any engine (race or stock), use a low ash content, mineral-based racing oil (20W or 30W). After the break-in period, change to a mineral or synthetic racing oil (30W or 40W)"
"When breaking in any engine (race or stock), use a low ash content, mineral-based racing oil (20W or 30W). After the break-in period, change to a mineral or synthetic racing oil (30W or 40W)"
06-30-2006, 11:19 PM
#65
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The dealer that changed my oil the first time used Quaker State synthetic. They must have been afraid that Quaker Stae sucked and took more oil then normal as they filled it with as much oil as it would take. This from a dealer that was awarded the best service in the state by Mazda.
Worse, I won't even use Quaker State in my lawnmower. For example, from the link;
Not exactly accurate. As long as the temp is between -20° F and 225° F thats somewhat true. Above 250° parrafin begins to decompose, and with the presence of a catalyst it begins to oxydize. Sulpher ash like found in higher levels for oil like Quaker State and Pennzoil are an ideal catalyst. Thats why when you pull a valve cover of an engine using Quaker State for a few years you'll see heavy sludge build up. Some paraffin is good; too much isn't. QS has way too much paraffin.
Worse, I won't even use Quaker State in my lawnmower. For example, from the link;
Paraffinic crude oil is recognized for its ability to resist thinning and thickening with temperature, as well as its lubricating properties and resistance to oxidation (sludge forming tendencies).
06-30-2006, 11:22 PM
#66
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swope,
now i have documented both
quaker state
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/car...w.asp#warranty
and [I]
mazda's posistion
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...chmentid=75485
on synth oil, and, the current standard for motor oil is ILSAC GF-4
have another beer and comeback with more bedtime stories
now i have documented both
quaker state
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/car...w.asp#warranty
and [I]
mazda's posistion
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...chmentid=75485
on synth oil, and, the current standard for motor oil is ILSAC GF-4
have another beer and comeback with more bedtime stories
06-30-2006, 11:29 PM
#67
it is swoope,
who has had the beer? it little photo that you provide is an insert that came out with the dvd about flooding.. something else that i have not had a problem with...
i would not put any stock in the quaker state website. as the statment about wankles is about10 to 15 years old...
do me a favor do a search and start with the sticky at the top of the tech page...synt oil. and read it...
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/cumulative-synthetic-oil-discussion-52856/
after that i will hunt down the higher ups in mazdas thoughts on synt oil.
get to work... dont post again till you have done you homework...
beers
who has had the beer? it little photo that you provide is an insert that came out with the dvd about flooding.. something else that i have not had a problem with...
i would not put any stock in the quaker state website. as the statment about wankles is about10 to 15 years old...
do me a favor do a search and start with the sticky at the top of the tech page...synt oil. and read it...
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/cumulative-synthetic-oil-discussion-52856/
after that i will hunt down the higher ups in mazdas thoughts on synt oil.
get to work... dont post again till you have done you homework...
beers
Last edited by swoope; 06-30-2006 at 11:31 PM.
06-30-2006, 11:36 PM
#68
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here's the beef folks, right from the horse's mouth.
quaker state
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/ca...ow.asp#warranty
and[I] mazda's posistion
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...achmentid=75485
quaker state
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/ca...ow.asp#warranty
and[I] mazda's posistion
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...achmentid=75485
06-30-2006, 11:41 PM
#71
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Sorry for the two bad links above. Try these
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...chmentid=75485
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...chmentid=75485
06-30-2006, 11:44 PM
#72
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=51
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=53
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=55
here is you sign...
troll back over to quakerstate website and find another oddity...
or come back with a scan of the owners manual.
just want to get this all in one thread.
beers
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=53
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=55
here is you sign...
troll back over to quakerstate website and find another oddity...
or come back with a scan of the owners manual.
just want to get this all in one thread.
beers