Success "Rides" On Styling
07-29-2002, 09:56 PM
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Success "Rides" On Styling
Mazda is known for creating both great sports cars and great traditional cars as well. Luxury items have always been second, however. The Tribute SUV does pretty well, offering many luxury features so this could be a good sign.
The truth is, the rotary engine attracts enthusiasts, but I'd love to see Mazda really get a winner with the RX-8. I want everyone to know that Mazda's engineering and performance can compete with Lexus, BMW, and the like. The way to attract regular buyers is to lure them away from cars like the Mercedes C230 or BMW 3-Series.
I know many people in their 20s, and even teenagers that drive these cars. It's not the Mustangs that are showing up in the driveways of 17-25s anymore - it's luxury cars more and more. Young people today want luxury. They want bragging rights. Mazda needs to make the interior of the RX-8 as luxurious as possible, and offer options like a sunroof, all-power instruments, and even heated seats/ Sound systems are HUGE with young people as well. Look at the laundry list of options available to C230 buyers (which starts around the same price as Mazda wants to start the RX-8 at)
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container...=02_C&menu=3_1
More than anything I'd like everyone to see just what a great brand Mazda iis, and what great quality they offer. Styling and luxury features on the interior may (sadly) be more important to some than the masterpiece that resides under the hood.
The truth is, the rotary engine attracts enthusiasts, but I'd love to see Mazda really get a winner with the RX-8. I want everyone to know that Mazda's engineering and performance can compete with Lexus, BMW, and the like. The way to attract regular buyers is to lure them away from cars like the Mercedes C230 or BMW 3-Series.
I know many people in their 20s, and even teenagers that drive these cars. It's not the Mustangs that are showing up in the driveways of 17-25s anymore - it's luxury cars more and more. Young people today want luxury. They want bragging rights. Mazda needs to make the interior of the RX-8 as luxurious as possible, and offer options like a sunroof, all-power instruments, and even heated seats/ Sound systems are HUGE with young people as well. Look at the laundry list of options available to C230 buyers (which starts around the same price as Mazda wants to start the RX-8 at)
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container...=02_C&menu=3_1
More than anything I'd like everyone to see just what a great brand Mazda iis, and what great quality they offer. Styling and luxury features on the interior may (sadly) be more important to some than the masterpiece that resides under the hood.
07-30-2002, 12:00 AM
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Interesting thought, but I'm not so sure about it.
Mazda should stick with their focus on building a sports car, rather than tackle the luxury market. Sure, they could add all the luxury gadgets but will that lure people into the car? A lot of buyers are biased toward the brand name and I doubt they would go for a Mazda over a Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura.
I think it's a bit too late for Mazda to enter the upscale market. It's already quite competitive, so jumping in at this stage is a big risk. By focusing on handling and performance, they are already different than most of the other makes out there.
IMO, the most important factor for the RX-8 will be keeping the weight reasonable. Adding unnecessary luxury equipment just makes the car heavier than it needs to be. As already discussed in another thread, the car really doesn't have that much torque. Start adding a few hundred pounds and the car will end up being a slug.
I do agree with you somewhat that a few of the luxury items will lure a few people to the RX-8, but they should really be options. It's fine for Mazda to pursue the luxury crowd if they want, but not at the expense of the enthusiasts.
Mazda should stick with their focus on building a sports car, rather than tackle the luxury market. Sure, they could add all the luxury gadgets but will that lure people into the car? A lot of buyers are biased toward the brand name and I doubt they would go for a Mazda over a Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura.
I think it's a bit too late for Mazda to enter the upscale market. It's already quite competitive, so jumping in at this stage is a big risk. By focusing on handling and performance, they are already different than most of the other makes out there.
IMO, the most important factor for the RX-8 will be keeping the weight reasonable. Adding unnecessary luxury equipment just makes the car heavier than it needs to be. As already discussed in another thread, the car really doesn't have that much torque. Start adding a few hundred pounds and the car will end up being a slug.
I do agree with you somewhat that a few of the luxury items will lure a few people to the RX-8, but they should really be options. It's fine for Mazda to pursue the luxury crowd if they want, but not at the expense of the enthusiasts.
07-30-2002, 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by Pork Chop
As already discussed in another thread, the car really doesn't have that much torque. Start adding a few hundred pounds and the car will end up being a slug.
< snip >
It's fine for Mazda to pursue the luxury crowd if they want, but not at the expense of the enthusiasts.
As already discussed in another thread, the car really doesn't have that much torque. Start adding a few hundred pounds and the car will end up being a slug.
< snip >
It's fine for Mazda to pursue the luxury crowd if they want, but not at the expense of the enthusiasts.
Well said!
I think they can pursue the built in luxury items on the 6 and Millennia. If there is a bunch of gadgetry coming standard with the RX-8, it will kill my whole reason for wanting one...
07-30-2002, 06:01 PM
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NNNnnnoooo! All I kept thinking as I read your post is "add lightness, not luxury". Every luxury item adds weight, which hurts every facet of a car's performance.
The market place is extremely crowded with cars in the 20-35k price range that offer some level of performance and luxury for 4-5 people. Here's a brief list off the top of my head:
WRX
Audi 1.8
Acura TL Type S
Acura RSX
Nissan Maxima
Nissan Altima
BMW 3 Series
Jaguar X-Type
a few Lexus models
MB C-class
VW Jetta
Volvo S60
and I'm sure I missed many others. There is no way Mazda can compete in this diverse segment if they fit in in any way. Mazda just doesn't have the image that buyers of these cars who care about luxury want. What Mazda does have is the Miata, RX-7, and rotary engine's performance image. In my opinion, if they try to add luxury items and compete against these other options, they will miss the target that is sitting dead in their sights right now. The RX-8 could be the best performance option for someone in this market, along with the WRX. In a nutshell, competing against other makers in terms of luxury will put them into a tremendously competetive market where they already have a check against them. Or, they could fill a niche that is not nearly as competetive by blowing away the others in terms of performance. If they try to do that and add weighty and expensive luxo items, they'll miss the performance and price benchmarks that it seems to me that they're aiming for.
Besides, at this point all of that stuff should have been decided by now. Even though the car is many months away, they're not going to make changes along these lines.
The market place is extremely crowded with cars in the 20-35k price range that offer some level of performance and luxury for 4-5 people. Here's a brief list off the top of my head:
WRX
Audi 1.8
Acura TL Type S
Acura RSX
Nissan Maxima
Nissan Altima
BMW 3 Series
Jaguar X-Type
a few Lexus models
MB C-class
VW Jetta
Volvo S60
and I'm sure I missed many others. There is no way Mazda can compete in this diverse segment if they fit in in any way. Mazda just doesn't have the image that buyers of these cars who care about luxury want. What Mazda does have is the Miata, RX-7, and rotary engine's performance image. In my opinion, if they try to add luxury items and compete against these other options, they will miss the target that is sitting dead in their sights right now. The RX-8 could be the best performance option for someone in this market, along with the WRX. In a nutshell, competing against other makers in terms of luxury will put them into a tremendously competetive market where they already have a check against them. Or, they could fill a niche that is not nearly as competetive by blowing away the others in terms of performance. If they try to do that and add weighty and expensive luxo items, they'll miss the performance and price benchmarks that it seems to me that they're aiming for.
Besides, at this point all of that stuff should have been decided by now. Even though the car is many months away, they're not going to make changes along these lines.
07-30-2002, 06:15 PM
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I have no problem with a little luxury, what else are option packages for? If you don’t want it don’t buy the option packages, it really is quite simple.
I do believe that Mazda will offer a base rx-8 for those that just want performance. For me I’ll take mine with a little comfort please. :D
I do believe that Mazda will offer a base rx-8 for those that just want performance. For me I’ll take mine with a little comfort please. :D
07-30-2002, 06:26 PM
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ZoomZoom-
True. It depends on what is meant by "luxury". If the original writer wants the RX-8 to mimic the Mercedes he linked to, I think that would be a horrible mistake. If the cars are even close, how many would choose the Mazda over the MB? If Mazda can smoke the others on an AutoX circuit and also add leather, sunroof, traction control, GPS, and other options for those that don't care about performance, that's fine with me. However, I think that if their target is a 4-door sports car, which I believe is the goal, having the cost and weight of those items will kill the car more quickly than you can say "bye-bye rotary"! In other words, luxury items as options aren't bad, but the niche that I believe Mazda is (rightly) aiming for is not based in luxury add-ons.
The motto is "zoom-zoom", not "trade your Buick".
True. It depends on what is meant by "luxury". If the original writer wants the RX-8 to mimic the Mercedes he linked to, I think that would be a horrible mistake. If the cars are even close, how many would choose the Mazda over the MB? If Mazda can smoke the others on an AutoX circuit and also add leather, sunroof, traction control, GPS, and other options for those that don't care about performance, that's fine with me. However, I think that if their target is a 4-door sports car, which I believe is the goal, having the cost and weight of those items will kill the car more quickly than you can say "bye-bye rotary"! In other words, luxury items as options aren't bad, but the niche that I believe Mazda is (rightly) aiming for is not based in luxury add-ons.
The motto is "zoom-zoom", not "trade your Buick".
07-30-2002, 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by Rich
It depends on what is meant by "luxury". If the original writer wants the RX-8 to mimic the Mercedes he linked to, I think that would be a horrible mistake.
It depends on what is meant by "luxury". If the original writer wants the RX-8 to mimic the Mercedes he linked to, I think that would be a horrible mistake.
07-30-2002, 06:40 PM
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See the problem is most people don't really want to "smoke the others on an AutoX circuit." What about those of us who live in big cities?
The MB is a train wreck of a car and an embarassment to the brand. Yet they're a good reference to how many OPTIONS can be available. Even if options are offered that scale down performace, many people won't car. They'll want a hot looking sports car but they genuinely don't really care all that much about speed. I have confidence this can easily compete with the Lexus IS300 that is being marketed as a sports car on TV right now. And again, Mazda shouldn't load these babies up with everything standard, but isolation of people who want luxury (and the hot sports look) sure won't help brand image.
The MB is a train wreck of a car and an embarassment to the brand. Yet they're a good reference to how many OPTIONS can be available. Even if options are offered that scale down performace, many people won't car. They'll want a hot looking sports car but they genuinely don't really care all that much about speed. I have confidence this can easily compete with the Lexus IS300 that is being marketed as a sports car on TV right now. And again, Mazda shouldn't load these babies up with everything standard, but isolation of people who want luxury (and the hot sports look) sure won't help brand image.
07-30-2002, 07:03 PM
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Unfortunately, the enthusiasts are outnumbered by the vast majority of the buying public. I think I could safely assume that most average buyers would put an emphasis on comfort and luxury over handling and performance.
Mazda is probably aware of that too, so they're trying to juggle things and make a reasonable compromise to keep both sides happy. If the car is too raw, then the enthusiast will be happy, but the luxury fans will be scared off. On the other side of the coin, an overly luxurious car that sacrifices performance will probably please some, but alienate others.
The heart and soul of the RX-8 is the rotary and the performance benefits that the design allows (lighter weight, lower center of gravity, etc). I don't think that type of high-strung, high-revving motor belongs in a luxury-oriented car. In fact, if you put this 250hp/162lb-ft torque motor into a 3200+ luxo-barge, you'd find lots of complaints that the motor is too weak compared to the torquey BMW/Lexus inline-6's and Infiniti/Mercedes V-6's. Your average luxury buyer doesn't want to row through the gears and certainly doesn't want to rev it to 9000rpm.
Mazda is probably aware of that too, so they're trying to juggle things and make a reasonable compromise to keep both sides happy. If the car is too raw, then the enthusiast will be happy, but the luxury fans will be scared off. On the other side of the coin, an overly luxurious car that sacrifices performance will probably please some, but alienate others.
The heart and soul of the RX-8 is the rotary and the performance benefits that the design allows (lighter weight, lower center of gravity, etc). I don't think that type of high-strung, high-revving motor belongs in a luxury-oriented car. In fact, if you put this 250hp/162lb-ft torque motor into a 3200+ luxo-barge, you'd find lots of complaints that the motor is too weak compared to the torquey BMW/Lexus inline-6's and Infiniti/Mercedes V-6's. Your average luxury buyer doesn't want to row through the gears and certainly doesn't want to rev it to 9000rpm.
07-30-2002, 08:01 PM
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Dang it, I lost a very long response due to a computer crash.
Autocrossing:
True, most people won't autocross their cars, much like most SUV owners, won't go off-road. However, the reviewers are certain to put the car through its paces, and if it's loaded down with excessive luxury items, it won't do well. Also, those in big cities are the most likely to have access to autocross races.
My main point, which I seem to be failing to express, is that the luxury end of the spectrum is crowded and extremely competetive. If Mazda tries to compete there, they will fail. The RENESIS won't do as well in a car that's weighted down with luxo items as a V6/V8. Pork Chop did a good job of explaining why, so I won't reiterate that.
There is a real gap on the performance side of the spectrum. If you want a car with good performance that seats 4, the best bets you've got in that price range are the WRX, Mustang, and RSX. I expect the RX-8 to be better than all of those. If they try to compete on the basis of luxury features, they will lose. Noone is arguing that it should be raw or spartan. I just think Mazda should focus on "zoom-zoom", not GPS.
You mentioned age in your first post. I'd expect the median age for RX-8 buyers to be well north of 35. The median age for the Eclipse is 44, and buyers of the MR2 spyder have a median age 41. Certainly some buyers will be in their 20s, as I am, but there will be just as many (if not many more) in their 50s. I can't imagine that the RX-8 median age will be as low as those are.
Anyway, I don't have a problem with luxury options, but I do believe that they go against the market that I believe and hope that Mazda is aiming for. Also, Mazda has shown remakable ineptitude in packaging their options, so I'm really skeptical that they'll get it right on this one. I hope I'm wrong on that point...
Autocrossing:
True, most people won't autocross their cars, much like most SUV owners, won't go off-road. However, the reviewers are certain to put the car through its paces, and if it's loaded down with excessive luxury items, it won't do well. Also, those in big cities are the most likely to have access to autocross races.
My main point, which I seem to be failing to express, is that the luxury end of the spectrum is crowded and extremely competetive. If Mazda tries to compete there, they will fail. The RENESIS won't do as well in a car that's weighted down with luxo items as a V6/V8. Pork Chop did a good job of explaining why, so I won't reiterate that.
There is a real gap on the performance side of the spectrum. If you want a car with good performance that seats 4, the best bets you've got in that price range are the WRX, Mustang, and RSX. I expect the RX-8 to be better than all of those. If they try to compete on the basis of luxury features, they will lose. Noone is arguing that it should be raw or spartan. I just think Mazda should focus on "zoom-zoom", not GPS.
You mentioned age in your first post. I'd expect the median age for RX-8 buyers to be well north of 35. The median age for the Eclipse is 44, and buyers of the MR2 spyder have a median age 41. Certainly some buyers will be in their 20s, as I am, but there will be just as many (if not many more) in their 50s. I can't imagine that the RX-8 median age will be as low as those are.
Anyway, I don't have a problem with luxury options, but I do believe that they go against the market that I believe and hope that Mazda is aiming for. Also, Mazda has shown remakable ineptitude in packaging their options, so I'm really skeptical that they'll get it right on this one. I hope I'm wrong on that point...
07-30-2002, 09:42 PM
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I think the overall emphasis of the RX-8 should be sport, with just enough standard creature comforts to keep the driver and the three passengers happy. Stuff like AC, a good stereo, and supportive seats. That's about it.
From there, they should have variants, like the new 350Z. These variants should (at a minimum) be:
1) Base - As mentioned above. Just the basics standard.
2) Touring - Includes leather heated seats, automatic climate control, automatic transmission (optional only on this model), sunroof, Bose (or equivalent) audio, etc. Maybe even a navigation system.
3) Sport - Includes larger wheels with ultra-high performance tires, stiffer suspension, bigger brakes, sport seats, LSD, etc.
Got any more ideas?
From there, they should have variants, like the new 350Z. These variants should (at a minimum) be:
1) Base - As mentioned above. Just the basics standard.
2) Touring - Includes leather heated seats, automatic climate control, automatic transmission (optional only on this model), sunroof, Bose (or equivalent) audio, etc. Maybe even a navigation system.
3) Sport - Includes larger wheels with ultra-high performance tires, stiffer suspension, bigger brakes, sport seats, LSD, etc.
Got any more ideas?
Last edited by mach; 07-30-2002 at 10:52 PM.
08-12-2002, 03:55 PM
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I'm also of the mind that weight and price should be kept to a minimum and luxury items be avoided. One thing I was thinking to help satisfy enthusiasts is to really offer a bare bones package.
You know: no chassis, wheels, trans, seats, or anything, just the engine in a box. That'd get the price real low and if I could get that for around 2 to 3K Mazda will have one eager customer ready to buy their engine.
You know: no chassis, wheels, trans, seats, or anything, just the engine in a box. That'd get the price real low and if I could get that for around 2 to 3K Mazda will have one eager customer ready to buy their engine.
08-12-2002, 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by Toadman
Sport = MAZDASPEED?
Sport = MAZDASPEED?
08-12-2002, 08:47 PM
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Will trade kids for RX-8
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LOL! Mazdaspeed MPV! :D
Don't laugh. No stop it. Really. :p There was an autocross at the Mall of America for local Mazda salespeople a month or so back. They were driving the MPV and Tribute!
Don't laugh. No stop it. Really. :p There was an autocross at the Mall of America for local Mazda salespeople a month or so back. They were driving the MPV and Tribute!
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