77mjd

Where is this located on Edmunds.com? I can't seem to find it.

I know there used to be a website called mycar.com that worked like what you are describing where several dealers bid against each other to give you the lowest price possible on the car you want. I actually used this service to get a price for my 8 but the site no longer exists.

Revvittupp

If by screw, you mean get every single penny of profit possible, then you are correct. If by screw, you mean maliciously meaning ill will, then you are not correct. IF by screw you mean making money hand over fist, you would not be correct. The average SALES dept has very little black ink each month by the time everything is said and done. A sales departments number one priority is to provede the parts and service departments with future customers, and profit second. I know of stoers that feel that if they aren't in the red each month, they are missing sales and thus PUSH FOR IT. These stores LOSE money on an operational basis of the sales department, thogh these stores are typically VERY high volume glorified service shops.

All the confusion in the car business is, that they are making a WHOLE LOT LESS then you think, and that it costs a WHOLE LOT MORE to do so. Unless people are still confused about the insanae ammounts of money made in EVERY service department.

77mjd

Never mind...I found it, but it will still be a game doing it this way, because it only allows you to chose make and model. You can't really tell them trimline/options so instead of emailing you with a quote, they will call you and ask what options you are looking for and they will not give you a price. Instead they will try to sucker you into going to the dealership to look at what they have on hand.

Roaddemon

It's on the front home page, of edmonds .com upper left square. It says GET A FREE PRICE QUOTE. enter make, model and zip. It will give you all the dealers in your area. You choose which ones you want to contact you with a quote. It works, pick the lowest deal and start diolog by phone or in person. The only problem is they will all be calling you trying to talk you over to thier dealership. You have to just say no and pick the best deal for you. Dealers are much more receptive to you when you shop by the net. Often the new car manager or a sales specialist will contact you. They become very competitive and you stay in control.

Roaddemon

No I think it gets more detailed once you get to the survey.

sportrider24

Rev - I'm not trying to nickel and dime the dealer at all. Please don't misunderstand the reasoning for my original post. As with alot of posts, questions get asked and before you know it, the post is headed in a different direction.

In previous car buying experiences, I've gotten NADA value (this is years ago). When I did I was told by a dealer, "No sir, KBB is what we use it is much more accurate". Since then, this is what I've used for information. Now apparently there is something new. The bottom line is that there has to be a tool out there for people to do there research from. How are people that are not in the automotive industry supposed to know how much there car is worth ? Am I supposed to take a dealers word for it ? I don't think so. My dealer is using black book. I'd never even heard of it before. That's why I asked about it. I also asked about the GT package because I do not and probably never will understand why my car is not worth any more money than a compairable sport pkg car.

This dealership has a huge used lot. I know they do alot of used buisness. They currently have 1 RX-8 on the lot. It's a 2005 Shinaka edition. Automatic, with 38,000 miles. They are asking $20,000 for it. Mine is a year older with 4,200 miles more on it with completely compairable options(its also red). Like I said, I was offered $12,000 for it and looking at the one on there lot, I would imagine they would sticker mine at around $18,000.

Now, I do not regret my post. I've learned alot. People have replied and I got some good feedback. My original questions were answered and for that I thank all !!!!!

Soravia

Sell it on eBay. You'll get more than a trade.
Not all dealers are ripp-offs. Dealer who own and operate themselves have less overhead/employee cost and give you better deals. I got my car from such dealer. Well they sold it to me at cost but for other people I imagine they would try to profit about $2,500 on it.

StewC625

Once again, ladies, the only number that makes a difference IS the DIFFERENCE.

And the DIFFERENCE number is how much you pay in the spread between the price of the new car and the allowance of your car.

When I sold cars, you could easily categorize people into basically three or four buckets.

The payment buyer only gave a **** about payment - easiest prey on the lot - didn't matter what you bought his car for or what you sold your car to him for - if the payment worked, you were money.

The allowance buyer only cared what you were giving him on the trade - so you showed him an high trade allowance and held the line on the new car, keeping the difference where we wanted it.

The discount buyer only cared how much you were discounting the new car - you could give him **** on the trade if he felt like he had you over the barrel on the new one - these guys we'd give them $1000 off invoice and make it on the trade allowance.

And there's the Homework buyer - this is a guy that knew the score - knew what his trade was actually worth in real money to a wholesale buyer, knew our cost structure on the car, had his financing hacked, etc. You loved getting these guys because they weren't yankin' your chain at all - they were there to buy the car and you could reason with them - you let me make a fair profit, you get a nice deal, we all win. And they always would agree to that and listen to reason.

I'd categorize the OP here as an allowance buyer.

Stew

StewC625

Here's where your logic is soft, Sportrider:

1) Year older and another "decade" higher in miles - in the 40's vs in the 30's. That "decade" of mileage is worth $2K to $3K right there in what someone might pay. Also, yours is an '04 - first year of production - always lower in trade than later years, no matter the car. If yours is an automatic, it's totally used car poison. Take the $12K and run.

2) He's got a $20K price tag on that Shinka, which means you can probably negotiate him down to $18.5 or even $17.5. He probably bought it for $15.5 to $16K. Why on the planet would he give you $18K for yours?

3) His initial offer of $12K for yours is a lowball, for sure, just to see if you'll stick and are real. There are too many morons out there looking to do a used car upgrade. You're clearly real.

You need to go in there, not get cranked on what the hell they are offering you (don't be an allowance buyer here). I'd try to solve for a $5000 difference price. That means to get there, they'll need to set yours in at around $13K and sell theirs for $18K. I'll bet they do it.

But don't waste your energy on caring about what they are "allowing" you - at the end of the day, it's the difference that counts. What are you willing to pay out more to have that Shinka? If it's $2k, you're smoking your socks. If it's $4K, it's worth trying to negotiate but that's still a stretch. If it's $5K, then you're more in the ballpark.

Understand?

Roaddemon

You described me to a tee. I am always aware they have to make a profit too. But I let them know I will not have my time wasted and I know what the Value is of the new as well as the trade if I have one. They respect me for it and really do try to help and sell me a car in a fair way. It also helps that I'm an experienced personality and reasonable. Well, maybe not on the forum but at the dealers. I'm in my upper 50s

sportrider24

Thanks Stew, Just to clear things up, I'm not interested in the Shinaka. I was only using it as a reference. Some others had mentioned what other 8's were going for in my area.

onephatguy

Not much to add other than I really enjoyed reading this debate. I really think people don't understand the true value of their car. Personal value is much higher than marketable value. Full KBB trade in, is about $13,900 based on the info given, and KBB is a lot higher than the NADA guide. The $12,000 trade in offer is very reasonable. I would want more too, but it would depend on the overall deal you're making on the new car. I think you have all the info you need now to make an informed decision. And I applaud those of you that posted here with very informative paragraphs.

Roaddemon

Plenty of tools out there. Call the bank, they will tell you what your car is worth because they base loans on it. Also check the classifieds, see what like cars are selling for. Print out "sell it your self" value from edmonds and Kelly and show it to them. Edmonds also lists the average selling prices of new car models in your area. Car trader is another source for pricing like cars. Be prepared and take your time. Conatact as many dealers as you can(internet helps here) If They don't really want your trade they will lowball you to discourage a trade. If you have a good trade find a dealer who wants the car and you as a customer. Don't sit down and start dealing right away on a car you like. Shop around but make short visits to the dealer you think is good and show your interest, communicate, ask questions. Narrow it down till it feels right. Once a dealer knows and likes you they will try harder to help. They want your business.

RX26b

If you take new MSRPs of a base 8 and a GT, there's probably $4500 difference. Why then doesn't the significantly higher priced model not retain a higher resale? Are you saying that the RX-8 is just this way, or are many cars like this (e.g. loaded Lexus LS460 vs a base model)?

Also, isn't it true that pretty much all auction cars are average crap - scratches, swirls, dings, not sparkling interior (probably describes over 90% of the cars on the road, right?)- and if someone has, let's say, a mint '06 Shinka with less than 10,000 miles they shouldn't really settle for "avg" black book figures? Hell, it makes you think that a car like that shouldn't even be brought to any dealer seeking a decent trade number because realistically no dealer has enough wiggle room (according to what you and other salesmen/managers have written in this thread) to sell him a new '08 model X for $400 under invoice and offer him top dollar on the '06 that's virtually showroom new.

RX26b

Also wondering, what happens to the "no sale" cars - RX-8s or otherwise...relisted for a later date, or literally given away (i.e. auto '05 25K miles sold for $11K??)

Good input from you and couple others, by the way.

Soravia

That's what auctions are for.

ken-x8

Prey - that kind of sums up the attitude, doesn't it.

Not necessarily all car salesmen, I've met (and dealt with) enough straight shooters. But I've also met enough who consider customers to be prey. I've probably heard more blatant lies from car salesmen than I've heard incompetent answers from Radio Shack clerks.

Ken

Myardor

iTrader: (7)

What one pays for any car might not be what the car is really worth.
You buy a car for more than its really worth, then year/years later you try to sell it and you are offered a bit less.

You wonder why you lost so much. Well, you did not do your homework when you bought it. Anyone, including dealers, will sell you a car for lots more than its worth if you so desire/ you suck in you doing your homework.

The '06 Shinka I bought for $19,750 in Oct 07(at a small town car dealer) was:

bought in April 07 for $27K (carmax) and traded in on August 07 for $17K (Ford Dealer)

Did I get a good deal?

who really knows? I am not selling anytime soon. paid cash so plan keeping it for a few years.

I normally keep my cars for at least 10 years min.

1. You might have paid too much for your car
2. Dealer will not pay you top dollar compared to what it retails for. His job is to make money/ie profit, not to give you top dollar for yours.
So he will not give you WHAT IT'S WORTH TO YOU BUT WHAT IT'S WORTH TO HIM. He is in the business to make a profit/not to give ppl what the car can be sold for.
If you want that top price then sell it yourself. His time is worth money. You do the work of selling the car/you make the difference in monies.

You seem to be a person who buys from dealers, ie you pay top dollar for a car and get bottom dollar when u sell to the dealer.
That's life. You don't like that, then don't play the game.
Sell the car yourself, buy from credit union/web/ etc.
There are so many other ways to buy a new car besides going directly to a dealer.

Revvittupp

To the OP, to put this all in one post. I apologize, I was a bit snappy. I guess that is because there is such an ENOURMOUS wealth of info all over the place right in front of you, the internet. Really, the best place to look is to backwards calculate from retail. Start at autotrader. Look at a car with the same year, and similar miles and options start there. There are some key options like stick in an RX8 or a premium package on a beemer, these are basically necessities. Make sure you have the same must haves as the cars you are looking at. Look fora good range, from the pie in the sky figures that will never sell, to the certified units. Look at the lowest price on the page. Why? Because if you were buying, that's where you would start.

Now this answers some of the above post as well. What would it take for you to be able to offer whatever these cars that are for sale have. Does your state have an annual or lifetime inspection? Does the car have a warranty? DOes the dealer provide financing? Is your car CLEAN(no dents, burns, scratches, dirt)? And most importantly, hwo much value do you put in to your time and effort into selling the car. Do you have payments? HOw long will it take you to sell it? How much will you spend to advertise it? Dealers, who are professionals at what they do spend around $500 to sell a car in 90 days. Can you do better? Would you expect someone to ask for a discount? What would you say if they asked?

OK, sorry for the post hijack, onto this post.

ON the wholesale market, it's all about supply and demand. There are a lot of auto's on the market(not an enthusiast buyer). No one wants them. Thus htey are CHEAP independant of options. Once a car has a stick, most of the rest doesn't matter that much to prospective buyers. A lot of us like to play around and mod up the car. If anythign, a base stick has the highest potential, as it's the lightest. There are a lot of GT's out there and less of the cloth sticks. Therefore, what matters most, wholesale -wise is mileage, condition and model year, not so much the options. Sunroofs(Touring) will probably bring a couple hundred extra, as will leather, but that's about it, and only if the buyer wants them. All cars will have pockets like this, where most options are worthless, but some are big bucks, as its what people want. Navigation, rear seat DVD's and the like usually keep some value, in some cars leather and a sunroof are basically manditory. Heated seats on a leather car are assumed, and leather without heaters is usually a no buy up here in MD, or if purchased you are looking a full thousand below where you would buy the car at.

No, not all auction cars are crap. They come from a pool of lease turn-ins and trades. So if you trade a real nice car into a Mercedes Dealership on a SL500, they will likely sell yoiur trade at an auction, as their customers probably aren't looking for an 8. Are there a fair share of crappy cars, sure you have to know what you are looking at. A dealer is honestly looking mostly trhough the little stuff though. Paintless Dent Repair, interior subcontractors, bumper guys, trim painters and detail guys work wonders. Some dealers detail nice trades before the sale. Perception is reality. If a car looks real nice, it will elicit higher bids. At the same respect, if someone isn't really looking for that car that day, they will try and buy it cheap.

Cars that don't sell, do so becuase they were unable to elicit a minimum or floor price. Some dealers are online during auction and can have the auctioneer barter with the highest bidder, other times they are cahrged, and given the opportunity to run through next week, or take it home. I actually bought my car under floor, in post negotiations. Usually that means you get a good deal.


If you really want top dollar for your car, work for it. Clean it up, stop driving it, make sure all dents and scratches are fixed, have all inspections up to date, make sure it has good tires and brakes. Make sure the windssheild is not cracked or chipped. Sell it within factory warranty and have all TSB's up to date. If all this applys to you, offer it at a very solid price, advertise it in a few places and ahndle the phoen traffic. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's hard. Someitme's you'll get 16 year olds that think they can afford a $200 car payment on an $18k car, and other times the first person that calls you will bring a cashiers check in the full ammount.

If you want the convenience of not cleaning your car, leaving bad tires and a cracked windsheild, paying it off, including negative equity, selling you a new car and calling it a day, expect a wholesale number.

Stewy has been dead on as well this thread.

fourdaystillfeb

When did people decide that car dealers should not be able to profit from their business. I may be a little biased, but people rarely get as fired up as when they are buying a car. People will do anything to a car dealer. We buy a lot of cars from people that are not as the people described. There is a certain degree of risk that the dealer assumes, not to mention the buildings and employees and cars and fixed expenses. I think that people kinda forget all that stuff when they are shopping around. Sorry about the rant there.
If you want a trade value I would look at Manheim Market report. Manheim operates auctions all over the USA and shows individual and average sale prices at auction.
That way you can see what cars are really bringing and what dealers are paying for them. These are real numbers from real sales from all over the country. KBB and NADA are great guides, but manheim has real sales to back it up.

Roaddemon

Your insurance co can also price your car since they do the pay out if it got totalled or stolen.

I got the value of my car off edmonds (Whats your car worth link to autotrader). I have a 2004 GT MT 26000 miles. Clean trade-in is $15650. Clean retail is $18175. If I traded at a dealer I would expect around $13000 cause that's what they do. If I sold outright I would ask $16000. Of course I might cave and go less. Depends on the response I get. I would sell in earley summer when the demand is higher for sportscars

CosmosMpower

Selling it private is the only way to go. Black book is what dealers use for trade in and similar to what the car would fetch at an auction which is nowhere near trade in much less private. I got a few offers to trade in my 05 Sport for 15-16K and ended up selling it private for 18.

Roaddemon

Yup, Black book is the dealers trade- in not the cars's real worth. Dealers have to figure in prep, advertizing, lot space and time, salespeople and time, and general over head and still make a $1000 profit when they sell your trade. Black book is generally $1500 to $2000 less than true blue book value. True bluebook is what most people will sell thier car for outright with a little padding for negotiation. Buyers feels good if they can talk you down a few hundred from asking price. I only trade cars If dealers come close to blue book and I got the new car deal i wanted or I think there's something wrong with the car and not worth blue book. It makes econcomical sense to sell outright if your car is clean and mileage is average for it's age. All it takes is one weekend and an ad in the local classifeds. You will save thousands.

Keep in mind if you do trade what you get for the trade is deducted from the new car price and that price will be what you pay sales tax on. With that and what the dealer offered me for my last trade on a new car, brought my trade close to blue book. It should be considered when trading in a car.

Renesis07

iTrader: (1)

Depending on your inequity, you should be able to talk them to 12500-13 if you're lucky. But 12 is reasonable.

ken-x8

Comes from the perception that car dealers will do anything to their customers. That goes back a long way. The whole negotiation process leaves people with a very bad taste. The price dickering crap is a big reason why I keep cars a very long time.

It used to be even worse, until federal law required that dealers at least disclose a list price. Remember the days before stickers?

Buying my RX-8 was a pleasure because it was S-Plan. No negotiation. I knew I was getting a decent deal. Maybe not rock bottom, but decent. And the dealer was making a fair profit. We could both relax and enjoy the car.

Ken