sportrider24

I attempted to trade in my RX-8 yesterday and got completely low balled on it. They wanted to give me $12,000. Kelly blue book is between $15,800 and $16,500 as my car is in between good and excellent condition. They graded it as a sport model even though it is a grand touring edition. When the dealer pulled out his little black book he pointed out that it did not show any additional money for the package. Obviously I walked away. He claims he his going to make some calls tomorrow to see if he can find some other takers that might pay more for the car ( probably just a sales tactic to see if I will call then back in a day or two).

My question : The dealership claims they don't use KBB anymore cause they loose money. They use black book. I've seen this appraisal before online and every car I've put in comes out a grand or two under KBB. Is this car appraisal system just some "dealer friendly" system to low ball trades ?

Thanks !

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

yes they usually use the little black book in their desk, I've seen it. and the value are *usually* much lower than kbb

KBB value is not that accurate these days.

Roaddemon

Sell it outright. Dealers always offer $2g-3$g less than bluebook. Even on Hondas. They have nothing to lose by doing so. That's why they are refered to as stealers. They will turn around and list your car, on thier lot as a grand touring 8 for $19000. Don't trade unless your desperate and really want to get rid of the car now. I'm not a car salesman but have bought alot of cars. If you trade you will leave thousands on the table and they are happy to take it. Yes they all lowball trades. They want profit. They are not fair appraisers. Does not matter what model or brand or shape the car is in.

VarneyMazda

FYI black book usually makes vehicles worth more money, im not going to burst your bubble about what your 8 is worth *its def worth more than 12 depending on condition tires etc.*
unfortunately that rx8 is a VERY soft car, it depreciates quick, and most buyers are not interested in the rotary motor and the extra aspects that come with ownership.

therefor imo i would say the dealer sees the car as something they would rather take in at a low enough number that they can quickly resell it to another dealer or, take it to the auction so that they never have to deal with it again.

Flashwing

Dealing with trades is a difficult part of doing a car sale as you clearly saw. The amount they give you for the trade really doesn't matter as long as the dealership knows they can sell the car. Typically the easiest method to negotiate a trade is to try and get a wash where you would break even. Still, used cars for dealerships in my experience make much more profit than new cars.

I sold Mazdas for a little while and it was always better to do a used car deal cause Mazda's don't have a lot of markup. Maybe $2,500 from invoice.

Depending on how many dealers there are for whatever vehicle your looking for, sometimes you can play them off each other if it's done right. Often a dealership won't give you numbers if you are going to take them someplace else. If they don't accept KBB then perhaps you can find adds or prices for RX8's with similar packages and show what they are charging.

If you see your year and package going for $18,000 then clearly $14k - $15k should be possible. The ideal would be to give you $12,000 and then they sell it for $18,000.

Other solutions would be for them to come down on the cost of the purchase vehicle. You can usually take from "one pocket or the other" but not both.

If you are firm on the cost of your trade stick by your guns. The trap people get into is buying a car all in one day. If you take your time and let them come to you, you might be surprised on what deals can be made.

Also, being that it's still early in the month they are less willing to struggle to get deals. Mazda would give the dealership a set amount of new cars that had to be moved for a bonus. If we made or exceeded that number we got so much $$ per car sold which was extra $ for the dealership. If they are hungry the might deal with you to make some extra on the back end.

I hope some of this helps. It's a dog and pony show. The better you "play" the more money you save.

sportrider24

Thanks for the replies. I really think that they are just testing me. If the deal really wasn't in the ball park, they most likely would have just said no and I would have been on my way. The sales manager claimed he was going to make some calls on Monday to see if he could get in contact with someone that might be willing to pay more for it. I don't see a dealer even going out of there way with a story like that if they weren't thinking of more negotiations.

When I bought my wifes car 6 months ago, I walked away from the deal and the next day the dealer acted as though god was smiling down on me because they were able to get the bank to drop down 3% on the finance charges putting me in the payment I wanted.

I guess I'll wait and see if the dealer calls tomorrow.....

StewC625

First of all your subject line made me laugh ... that's an oxymoron if there ever was one.

I worked in the car biz for about a year - the "black book" is another published car price guide like KBB.

The thing to remember is that dealers buy at wholesale, sell at retail - if you're looking at KBB's site and are not looking at "trade in value" but retail value, you'll be disappointed.

Personally, I'd sell it outright - list it on eBay Motors and it'll be gone within 7 days and most likely at a price higher than you expect. Put a reserve on it at the lowest price you'd take, pay the $10 to list it and have at it. I help others sell their cars on eBay. If you want me to do it for you, I could help you and can put together a kickass listing for you.

cquinn

Also check out Carmax, I've heard they offer a pretty fair price, at least more than the trade in offer from the dealer, and its no hassle for you. I think the offer they make is in writing and good for 7 days or so. Could be a quick alternative to trade-in.

Roaddemon

Carmax uses the same black book as the dealers. They also will half that price if they detect any sign that the car was in any kind of accident and repaired. They do a very thorough inspection and can tell.

Best way to buy a new car and negotiate a trade is by internet. Edmonds offers a site that will submit what your looking for to all the dealers who carry it in your area. You will get responses within a week. I tell them all to sharpen thier pencils because they bid against each other. I go with the low bid then work from there. I never admit a trade until I have chosen a dealer with lowest bid. Then and only then, when they know I'm going to buy do I tell them I have to sell my present car first. You would be surprised how much they are willing to compete to get your business even with a trade. They know you have been contacted by other dealers. They know it's an internet deal. They know I can walk. I do not devulge what the competitor dealers offered. It drives them crazy and they won't leave you alone. They want to sell you a car. They know you will buy from the one who wants your business most. It all works in your favor. You only need a computer and a phone. Takes the nonscense out of buying a car.

Renesis07

iTrader: (1)

Never fear, Renesis07 is here!!! Im a car salesman. Heres the deal, what youre seeing when u look in KBB is resale value! Trade in is much lower on every vehicle. Thats the way it is. Most dealers use NADA which is significantly lower than KBB. And unless your 8 has 15K miles and has no scratches or cracks in the leather, they will usually always book it at average. About 3 months ago, it was about 13,750 for average trade in. Demand 15,000 and youll probably get it. As ive explained before, theres ACV ( actual cash value) Dealerships can "overallow" out the salesmans commission to give you more money when the cash value is still low. Example. If they give you 15,000 for the trade and its ACV is 12,000, that 3K comes out of the salesmans commission; thats overallowing. Now, what it sounds like theyre trying to do to you is make money off your trade. Example, if they show you 12,000 for trade and its ACV is worth 14,000, thats 2,000 profit to the dealership! I hope this made sense.

sportrider24

That does make sense but I must clarify that I am not looking at resale value with KBB. I am looking at trade in value.

My biggest concern is that when they ran the VIN it came up as a sport and offered me $12,000. When I told them it was a GT they would not take it into consideration and offer me more. We are talking quite a few upgrades here. When I asked why he showed me the little black book he had and said that upgrades did not raise the value at all.

Renesis07

iTrader: (1)

what year is you car and how many miles??

Roaddemon

If you live near a large city use the net. You will get 4-5 dealers contacting you for your dollar. The dealer your dealing with sounds like a dud. Move on. There are dealers willing to work with you. find them. It's a competitive business. Make them work for you. They will if they know your wise to the game.

StewC625

SELL IT YOURSELF. You're foolish to trade it, unless there's a problem you're trying to hide or pawn off on someone else. You will ALWAYS get more money because you're selling at retail not a wholesale. Pretty damn simple principle.

BTW, you're positive it's a GT? A GT has leather, Bose sound, 18" wheels with stability/DSC, HID, moonroof, the works. You missing any of those items?

FYI, if you insist on trading it - rather than getting hung up on what your trade allowance is, worry only about the total amount you need to pay to get the new car - at the end of the day, that's the only thing that matters. Go in there knowing the number you want to buy the car at, and the number you want to sell yours at - that's the "minimum" difference you can probably get - and from there, your ability to get to that number is entirely based upon your ability to negotiate. If the car you want is $34K and you think they would sell it for $30K and you think your car is worth $15K, then you are solving for a difference number of $15K. Again, it's the only number that matters. How the dealer manipulates the numbers to get to that is inconsequential.

Then, the next thing you want to do is shop financing, based upon the difference number, so you know from a few financing sources, what a payment on that amount would be. Therefore, you don't have to sweat being a "payment buyer". Know the financing terms (percentage and term) required to get that payment, and do a simple division - a $300 payment on a $15,000 note means that 30 divided by 15 yields that every $20 of payment buys you $1000 of car AT THOSE TERMS. If the dealer's payment is beating that, then get the terms to see why. Chances are if you turn into a payment buyer, you'll get a much longer term than what you wanted, or a high rate, and wind up paying far more in the long run than you should have.

The seven P's apply here - Prior Proper Preparation Prevents **** Poor Performance - know the score before you go. Know how much your car is worth from several sources, know how much you could likely sell it for yourself, know what your buying power is in terms of financing, and finally have your difference calculated to get you to the payment you want.

Go in that prepared, and you will hold the majority of the cards in the negotiation. AT that point, you can simply walk out of the stealership if they can't hit your terms.

Renesis07

iTrader: (1)

^^ Very true, because if they dropped the price of their vehicle a shitload but didnt budge on your trade, that could still be a good deal. Or would you have rather had them keep the price the same and give you crazy trade in, either way its the same! Look, dealerships are going to make their cut so just figure out what you wanna spend and get there and dont focus on one aspect of the deal (ie trade, cost, monthy payment, etc) theyre going to make it somewhere. Just try not to get royally screwed!!! And besides, if this dealership wont work with you, screw them and go somewhere else!!!! Im sure theres other dealerships in florida

devildog1679

KBB is worthless when tradeing in, the dealer goes by what a recent car of the same make, model, trim sold at the latest dealer auction.

Roaddemon

I was thinking the same. If they did'nt drop the new vehicle price a shitload only to make it up on the trade he should walk. Fair pricing is what you want. If you see the overall deal is not fair by market standards , tell them and walk. Don't argue with them. That would only empower them.

sportrider24

'04
42,500 miles

Has Leather, 18" rims (and tires with roughly 9,000 miles on them, moonroof, 9 Bose speakers, heated seats etc... I'm 100% sure it's a GT.

Revvittupp

Wow, threads like this drive me crazy. For some reason people feel they should be able to buy a new car for wholesale and sell a used car for retail, not the other way around. Well guess what, there are these really big buildings that cost OODLES of money, and therefore it doesn't work that way. Dealers make money, albeit through smaller profit margins then any business I know(save for grocery stores, and GAS, both of which are HIGH volume retail). So let me guess, you already beat them down to a zero profit deal on the car your buyuing, with a smile on your face...
KBB is the biggest source of confusion on the market. See the thing is, some consumers are convinved it has any bearing whatsoever on anything. It is by far the worst guide of value. Funnier then that is that you used exce;;ent and good. Those terms are reserved for retail units. A trade in will never be more then a fair car. If you have NO scratches, new tires and breaks, a full detail and a full tank of gas, then maybe you'll get closer to a good trade in number, of course thi sis assuming that you have NOMAL(10-14k/yr) miles. KBB puts basically no value in miles, which in the real world are usually more important then Model year. So in conclusion, unless Mr Kelly is opening his checkbook, what do you care he says your car is worth. Why don't you worry abotu people actually willing to buy your car.
Black book is a much more regularly updated and correctly adjusted guide. I'm not sure if there is an add for GT or not, but I can tell you why he won't give you any more money for it... because it doesn't matter. These cars sell for the same number at the auction no matter how they are equipped, except for the autos which normally no sale, or eventually sell for 80% of a comparable stick,. The day I went to the sale they had 17 rx-8s. 5 were auto's, 4 didn't even get bid on. The other one sold for $2k less then any of the sticks, and was clearly in better shape then a couple, all of which sold. Differences in colors and conditions weighed significantly more then optons that day, for example an '04 w/ 29k loaded up with nav, sold for less then one with 13k in a base model, that is odd. That is the Rx8.
Let';s add to all of this, the fact that it's December. HOw easy do you suppose it will be for him to sell that sports car in the middle of the winter. Sounds to me like he'll be wholesaling the car. Maybe that's why he gave you a wholesale number, because he didn't want to lose money buying yoru car, that he doesn't want. Man, what a horrible thing to do? I don't understand people.
Ok, so i guess you should take it elsewhere. Carmax pays great money, because they rip[ everyone off at the other end. They will sell the car for an absurd ammount of money, so they are able to give top wholesale dollars for retail ready cars.
Top dollar comes from selling it on your own, well until you factor in all of the costs in doing so. Start off with an ad, a good detail and add to that a good safety inspection and replacement of some parts,. Then factor in dealing with people and taking time off of work for test drives. Then you have the tire kickers that waste your time, everyone wants a discount and most peoples financing falls through. Sounds fun, maybe it's worth it for you.

Forgive me if I'm worng but this sounds like a spade.... sounds like you have a not so nice car, with high miles, aqnd some soon to be failing parts- that's why you are getting rid of it. I bet you also negotiated the other car down to zero profit and are complaining because you are not being overpaid for yoru crap that noone wants. This is a common thought for people to have. Afterall, they paid a LOT of their money and "took care of" their car.

"But KBB said my 200k mile Mercedes 230 was worth $9k"
"Would you for any reason EVER buy this car fro $9k?"
"Oh god no, that's why I want you too... I'll buy this almost new one with no mileage for a little more...."

A spade is a spade.

Revvittupp

Sounds like a $13,995 kind of retail car. Maybe start at $14,995. I'm talking retail, detailed, everything fixed, dents dings scratches, stains, all shakes and rattles, inspected if your state has it. I hope its a good color(read less likely to offend) not yellow or Nordic Green...
$14k for the car, you are now the shark you began to coi
BTW, the funny [part in all of this... if you get someoen to give you over $14k for the car, you are now the shark you began this thread by complaining about.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

Just to try and avoid a flame war here - I think the OP's issue was not so much that he is trying to get one over on the man - but that he doesn't UNDERSTAND where the magic numbers come from in the first place. That is why most people hate buying a car - because they never REALLY know what kind of deal they got - they just hope that they didn't get screwed too much. This is why car salesmen are feared and loathed - the process is too confrontational.

rglbegl

Revvittupp has about the only real answers in this thread.

I was born in to the car business. And what he said makes almost perfect sense.





Question for the OP . . . What would you pay for your car? To buy the same RX8 you own right now . . .how much would you pay?
The dealer wants to buy it from you for $12k, + the $2k in recon + Misc , they are in to it for $14k or over. Now they want a profit margin so that you, the consumer, can 'haggle' a better deal out of them and feal good about yourself. And if you cant 'haggle' $2k out of them, you wont buy.

SO . . .

$14k +$2k 'haggle' + $2k (conservative)profit the dealer wants = $18,000

Would you consider buying your current car if it was marked at $18,000 on the dealers lot?

rglbegl

The value is based on what they go for at the dealer auctions. Each area will have different cars that hold value beter in certain markets. A Subaru in socal aint worth the paper the title is printed on, but in the Colorado mountains, they hold value better than any honda

Kane

iTrader: (1)

I agree rglbegl - I know how the game is to be played; but I see daily the confusion and drama of this process.

I have helped like 3 people get cars over here; because you can order through the factory and avoid all this crap - and I tell you; it is MUCH easier and less annoying that going to the dealership.

I was just trying to mention that not all consumers are trying to screw the big bad dealerships... or vice versa for that matter.

rglbegl

I know not all consumers are trying to screw the dealership.

But


Let it be known ; EVERY dealership is trying to screw you. Period.