Snox801

So here is a thought. As per my premix discussion I’m kinda a two struck guru and love them.
But the question is I’m curios as to if Mazda could bring back the two stroke with 4 stroke to lube the same as it does now but no oil injection. Then use the etec technology to lube the rotor?
The big push a while back was for clean 4stroke in boats and sleds. Well evinrude broke the mold with the etec. It’s the cleanest burning outboard motor available. That right cleaner than 4 stroke. It uses an oil injection system separate from the di fueling system only to spray oil on the very specific spots. The oil injection is ran similar to fuel injection system. These are able to accomplish a very lean oil ratio. That being said if it’s the cleanest burning would it work for a the wankle?
I’m thinking it has something to do with overall emissions it’s clean but it more than likely produces a higher level than is ok of something and hence won’t work for the road. Similar to why two stroke mopeds no longer work in certain areas. 100mpg but still to dirty for the overlords.

Snox801

Before I get my ***** busted I’m sure Mazda has looked at it but was kinda hoping it’s a pattern that has kept them from using it. As you all I’m hoping another one comes out someday.

kevink0000

Thanks for posting this. I was somewhat familiar with ETEC on sleds and watercraft, but I did not know about Evinrude.

That is interesting about the clean exhaust. I will try to understand more.

Snox801

Was just a thought and I remember them really pushing how clean it was and knew that it was a bale to run very lean ratios.

UnknownJinX

IMO oil is part of the emission puzzle, but the bigger piece is just the way fuel burns in a Wankel.

There is the way the flame spreads in a Wankel, and also the exhaust port timing is static - a lot of piston cars now have variable valve timing that can help warm up the catalytic converter quickly during a cold start.

Snox801

I believe this is the main cause. Just can’t believe that you have people driving suv with giant v8 in it but we can’t have a small wankle. Even though we all know they get bad fuel economy it’s still better than an suv. I understand having a different approach for trucks as like me it is for work I couldn’t do without one. But why are we letting the people we voted in decide what we can drive? I know it won’t change anything but it is baffling how we got to this point. I’m all for cleaning things up but it seems that ever since the 70’s the environment has gotten so much better overall except maybe India and chime. The USA is significantly cleaner than it was.
Very disappointing everyone who wants to roll coal in a diesel to drive to work with a coffee in hand can and I can’t get a new wankle. Lol

UnknownJinX

Except the giant V8 sees so much development that it's as efficient as a rotary making less power. C6 Corvette gets better gas mileage than an RX-8, particularly on a highway. Even pushrod V8's have VVT and direct injection now. And let's not forget hybrid SUVs, which can be quite efficient.

Of course, environmental laws have something to do with it, but from a business standpoint, rotaries just aren't very viable after the Bubble Economy burst in Japan and sports car demand has in general decreased significantly.

Car businesses heavily rely on the economy of scales nowadays. The reason your Ecoboost engines are as capable as they are is that Ford makes so many of them for so many cars, they can afford to toss the money into R&D because they know the return will be sizeable. Same with GM small block. Mazda rotary just doesn't see the same treatment because it is low-volume.

As much as some people dislike the shoebox rotary hybrids, IMO that's actually a good start if they want rotary to really get anywhere. Get some volume first so you can afford the R&D to make rotary better.

Snox801

Correct. I wasn’t saying v8 was not efficient I was more pointing that the same v8 in a suv get way worse than my wankle to do the same job 99 percent of the time.
But scale is more the reason. That’s what’s got me worried for gm and ford. Both are really pushing electric stuff and I just do t see the market demand for that. Hard to force people into it. Even with brand loyalty. The ecoboost is proof look how many wrote it off as unreliable because v6 and turbos.
I am fortunate enough that my uncle oversaw the engineering at Dana for engines. So I got to know what motors where gonna be good and which ones to stay away from like the 6.0 power stroke. But he has since retired and no in that loop anymore.
Fun fact they were still working on better seals for wankles late into his career. He mentioned something about marine applications.

Deathstar24

Honestly my 5700lb 2001 silverado 5.3 v8 BONE STOCK with 160k miles gets the same mpg as a RX8 lol, and it makes near 300ftlbs of tq at like 1500rpm. i get 15.5 city beating on it. and near 21mpg highway last trip i took and thats not even trying either.

The problem with the wankel is the travel of the flame front, port timing, and low compression. Then add in poor thermal efficiency, and you can see why its an issue. Plus the newest wankel tech is now getting 15+ years old. Its gonna take someone reinventing the oiling system and ports to majorly change its emissions. Having the oil come from the Eshaft up through the rotor to the tips of the apex seals may help, but then it would still end up being burned up, even if it were less. A preheater for the cat would help a lot too i would wager.

Snox801

That’s along the lines of the etec. Completely eliminate the sump pumping oil and do 2 stroke injections in the critical spots with a high quality oil designed for say 100:1 or better protection when premixed and even leaner when injected where it needs to be. Look up some of the clean two stroke tech and you will be amazed how clean they have gotten. Problem was it was expensive to get that tech onto things like dirt bikes but now all the same tech like fuel injection, and dry sump is standard making it easier like in the outboard motor world. Very curios how clean it could get.
Side note you should never sell that truck. All my friends that have those do t get anywhere near that fuel economy. Not saying it can’t happen just you got a good one. I had one 5.4 ford that was terrible and one that was great on fuel. Same everything just one didn’t like me I guess.
My thought for the new Wankle seems like a lot of tech adding to cost but it can’t be worse than some of the crap they are developing now.

Deathstar24

Biggest thing is people dont know how to drive em. Put the pedal down, let it engage that converter fully and get up to speed, then let off completely as you turn cruise on. Theres a lot of MPG stuff that you get ONLY during cruise control. And too many people pussyfoot them and just lug the hell out of them. 80-85 mph all the way acorss the state and back in the summewr and i got 20.8 mpg, my buddy got 20.3 in his on the same trip without the camper shell. Same options and truck basically.

But back on topic, any type of way to eliminate oil burning and seal the chambers would be a HUGE advancement, along with a way to adjust the port sizes. Then you could focus on lean burn and higher compression also. There HAS to be a simple way to seal the rotor tips and still not wear the hell out of em

UnknownJinX

There was an article a while back that interviewed Pan Speed in Japan, and if their info is correct(they claim they have some connections inside Mazda), Mazda has pretty much pulled the plug on the rotary program, at least the performance side. I mean, what is a Mazda engine that can be considered performance-oriented nowadays?

Talking Rotaries With Pan Speed - Speedhunters

So yeah, I doubt we will ever know what would happen, especially given that Mazda is already blowing a lot of money on Skyactiv-X and the I6 stuff.

Snox801

Yep I doubt we will ever see it but would be neat to see what they could do. Especially if they added a power valve similar to bikes to aid in low end trq.
Dang you AL Gore.

UnknownJinX

RX-8 already has the variable intake system that closes off ports at low RPM.

If you want anything delicate in the exhaust... Good luck. We all know how hot rotary exhaust gets, even by gasoline engine standards. I don't know how long any mechanism can survive in that temperature. Probably why Mazda didn't do it on the RX-8.

Snox801

Well the snowmobiles run Wry hot out of the exhaust port so I’m sure that system would hold up to the heat. My guess is they are doing it. just a different way. Would be a weird spot and probably hard to maintain if done like a sled.

Deathstar24

wouldnt need to be anything delicate...bikes and snowmobiles do it by using a sprung metal sliding piece that changes the port size dependent on not only rpm, but how fast it gets up into the rpm. Ive seen bikes boiling over with no issues with power valves.

all you would need is some servos with a simple CDI controlled map that can tell by rpm, then tap into TPS the same way the fueling is anticipated. If simple dirt bikes that are run hard with no battery or anything can run them, then a car can easily.

200.mph

iTrader: (9)

do not question your betters/rulers pleeb. now pickup that can citizen. i watched a video eariler this week about a house bill that was just submitted which basically bans any and all mods/tuning to any car with a vin

Snox801

that’s what I was thinking. Even if not ran by pressure a servo like how arctic cat does it would be a good way.

UnknownJinX

Dirt bike doesn't have much of emission standards in the way, though. A car one would have to be a lot more precise and perhaps delicate.

But it doesn't look like Mazda wants to put more effort in so... I know Brettus has been experimenting with ideas that make rotaries better. He actually made a rotary exhaust recirculation system that improved the fuel economy by around 10%, so if you wanna see anything, I think you could run it through him and see his thoughts on the practicality of it.

Snox801

I think the tech for the etec type system which would be the most effective way would be very expensive. The valves would be a side note.

Deathstar24

True, but it wouldnt need to be very compicated or do much to help. I doubt mazda or anyone large will build rotaries at scale in anyway again minus for replacement parts thanks to future impending emissions and government mandated electrification crap

Meat Head

Sorry to inform you if you didn’t already know, Evinrude is out of business. Very disappointing since I’ve been running twin 250’s on one of our boats since April 2016. They had excellent performance, burned less fuel than twin 225 Yamahas, and weighed less too. There was excellent service and warranty coverage as a bonus. RIP Evinrude.

Now back to the dream of a future rotary car that isn’t involved with a battery (I LOATHE the electric vehicle).

Snox801

Well I heard about it but was not for certain they folded. Maybe that tech will be bought by someone else like Mazda!!