Article gives insight into just how many RX-8 engines have been rebuilt
08-20-2013, 06:51 AM
#77
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Apparently I've gotten extremely lucky then. I picked up my 06 a month ago with 8.0+'s across the board. with 48k miles on it. Out of curiosity... I got a 4 year 48k bumper to bumper warranty slapped on her; are all engine replacements remans, or are just the ones done under the 8 year 100k Mazda warranty?
08-20-2013, 07:10 AM
#79
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Numbers that stood out to me until I read the story and that the plant is 130,000 sq ft! I'd always thought rotary engine assembly was hand done by a small crew in a clean room in Japan for all RX-8s produced. Watching too many utube videos of that process with like three guys assembling one I guess. However, 130,000 sq ft for a few assembly people? That doesn't pass the smell test....Hummm.
Then I read on further that there were originally 20 full time and 29 temps there, and that, "The plant also has a power steering pump line, a dealer training center and an information call center. The plant has remanufactured more than 150,000 pumps in 11 months, and Mazda said it expects to produce almost 200,000 pumps in support of the recall."
That's a bit more plausible, but seems like a lot of real estate for that work.
As to the remans themselves, it is also true that the plant also tests and distributes new Japanese sourced rotary engines, such as the one I got at ~35K miles. Sleepy-z wrote to me after I asked him my particular engine-to-be and sent me the compression test results on it and told me they had run out of remans and so was sending along this all new JDM engine. So to me it is unclear if the numbers coming from the plant are 'real' remans or just engines being shipped out, and so could include 'new' replacements as well.
As to the number of engines remanded being "sad" or somehow indicting a failure by Mazda, I guess it depends on whether you look at it as a glass half full or half empty story. My take is that in engineering anything - failure is just an inevitable part of eventual success, Mazda wanted to learn from this situation i.e., "An investigation group at the site also analyzes the parts for any failures and provides feedback to the company to improve future designs.".
They could have just shipped new engines in and given up on the rotary, but they wanted to improve things. The S2 was part of the resultant improvement, that shows some of what they learned, and I'm sure they are honing their knowledge as they gather statistics over time. Nothing like doing autopsies on each dead subject to teach exactly why they did expire.
Let's hope this supposed future rotary build is the charm ... Mazda 16X rotary engine two years away, will arrive in all-new model - Autoblog
Then I read on further that there were originally 20 full time and 29 temps there, and that, "The plant also has a power steering pump line, a dealer training center and an information call center. The plant has remanufactured more than 150,000 pumps in 11 months, and Mazda said it expects to produce almost 200,000 pumps in support of the recall."
That's a bit more plausible, but seems like a lot of real estate for that work.
As to the remans themselves, it is also true that the plant also tests and distributes new Japanese sourced rotary engines, such as the one I got at ~35K miles. Sleepy-z wrote to me after I asked him my particular engine-to-be and sent me the compression test results on it and told me they had run out of remans and so was sending along this all new JDM engine. So to me it is unclear if the numbers coming from the plant are 'real' remans or just engines being shipped out, and so could include 'new' replacements as well.
As to the number of engines remanded being "sad" or somehow indicting a failure by Mazda, I guess it depends on whether you look at it as a glass half full or half empty story. My take is that in engineering anything - failure is just an inevitable part of eventual success, Mazda wanted to learn from this situation i.e., "An investigation group at the site also analyzes the parts for any failures and provides feedback to the company to improve future designs.".
They could have just shipped new engines in and given up on the rotary, but they wanted to improve things. The S2 was part of the resultant improvement, that shows some of what they learned, and I'm sure they are honing their knowledge as they gather statistics over time. Nothing like doing autopsies on each dead subject to teach exactly why they did expire.
Let's hope this supposed future rotary build is the charm ... Mazda 16X rotary engine two years away, will arrive in all-new model - Autoblog
Last edited by Spin9k; 08-20-2013 at 07:13 AM.
08-20-2013, 08:19 AM
#82
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https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...y-dead-247961/
I'm not the only one with that opinion in the thread about the article.
That article is complete bs. Just someone else feeding on someone else's belief in the rumor mill.
- '16X' name was dropped a few/couple years ago
- the dimensions of it were known
- the name for the engine is currently 'Sky-R'
- the oil consumption comments prove the ignorance and how that couldn't have been from Mazda
- zero comment on SkyActive tech Mazda had previously mention
- '16X' name was dropped a few/couple years ago
- the dimensions of it were known
- the name for the engine is currently 'Sky-R'
- the oil consumption comments prove the ignorance and how that couldn't have been from Mazda
- zero comment on SkyActive tech Mazda had previously mention
08-20-2013, 08:22 AM
#83
All the information about the 16X engine has been known for over 2 yrs. The timeline for introducing a new car is too short.
If the news source was really from Mazda North America Operations, they have been a notoriously unreliable source of information about future vehicles. Remember the electric supercharged Mazdaspeed RX8?
If the news source was really from Mazda North America Operations, they have been a notoriously unreliable source of information about future vehicles. Remember the electric supercharged Mazdaspeed RX8?
08-20-2013, 08:37 AM
#84
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Sounds right, total cow flap stuff I imagine - I don't read these things carefully anymore as the rotary appears only a historical curiosity at this point anyway. I've got two 10 yrs old cars and one 14yr old one. I'll likely be upgrading before anything rotary ever arrives (doubtful anyway) which will close the door for me as I trade so infequently.
08-20-2013, 10:54 AM
#85
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...y-dead-247961/
I'm not the only one with that opinion in the thread about the article.
I'm not the only one with that opinion in the thread about the article.
08-20-2013, 10:57 AM
#86
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Sounds like a rhetorical question. Especially in light of completely fabricated "facts" in the article.
What about CNN? They are bonafide aren't they? How much do you believe them:
https://www.rx8club.com/lounge-4/cnn...s-work-247865/
What about CNN? They are bonafide aren't they? How much do you believe them:
https://www.rx8club.com/lounge-4/cnn...s-work-247865/
While a standard engine is powered by a belt connected to the crankshaft, a turbo engine runs on its own exhaust steam, making it more energy efficient.
08-22-2013, 11:34 AM
#87
i like how they rebuild 200,000 power steering pumps a year, and we don't care, but 5,000 engines is a lot...
there was some recall on the mazda 3 pumps, i think they are replacing ALL of them.
there was some recall on the mazda 3 pumps, i think they are replacing ALL of them.
08-22-2013, 11:42 AM
#88
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Mazda definitely seems to handle problems like these reasonably well. I was relieved to receive my remans early on after my standard warranty was up because had I had to pay for an engine rebuild back then I would have been in a tough spot due to my finances back then. I got my last reman with 96,000 miles on the odometer.
08-23-2013, 11:21 AM
#89
Mazda definitely seems to handle problems like these reasonably well. I was relieved to receive my remans early on after my standard warranty was up because had I had to pay for an engine rebuild back then I would have been in a tough spot due to my finances back then. I got my last reman with 96,000 miles on the odometer.
Last edited by j9fd3s; 08-23-2013 at 11:23 AM.
08-23-2013, 12:24 PM
#90
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Not sure if this affects the reman numbers at all, but I know Mazda also sells the Renesis for other uses besides the RX-8. I know for a fact that there is (or at least was) a stadium truck series that used the 13B-MSP as the spec motor. They are also used in kit planes and helicopters. Whether these ever pass through the reman factory, I have no clue.
08-23-2013, 12:48 PM
#92
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Yeah I posted about a couple years ago in this thread:
https://www.rx8club.com/general-auto...-dirty-211848/
Direct link to the article:
How You Can Arrive, Drive and Race a Super Lite Championship Truck – RoadandTrack.com - Road & Track
I'm guessing its defunct now though.
https://www.rx8club.com/general-auto...-dirty-211848/
Direct link to the article:
How You Can Arrive, Drive and Race a Super Lite Championship Truck – RoadandTrack.com - Road & Track
I'm guessing its defunct now though.
08-23-2013, 01:07 PM
#94
I think the rotory is a generation or two behind, I wanna steal all there info, then go back in time and give it back to them 30 years ago. so the first rx7 had the renisis, etc...
08-23-2013, 01:16 PM
#95
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There was one company that built the engines for the superlite series but I can't remember the name now. But that was a while ago and the series no longer exists since it was not real popular. I imagine some of those engines would eventually end up at the reman plant but they were pretty small numbers so I doubt those numbers were significant. The Star Mazda engines were new engines built for that series, not a standard Renny.
08-23-2013, 01:56 PM
#96
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Gotta love google, a quick search found me this kit plane site:
FAQ's
Sorta off topic, sounds like they mostly get them from the junkyard.
FAQ's
FAQ's
Sorta off topic, sounds like they mostly get them from the junkyard.
Q. What horsepower can I expect to get from the Mazda rotary?
A. A relatively stock 13B two-rotor engine used in the RX-7 will deliver from 150-200 hp in aircraft service. You may hear stories about 400 hp or more from other sources. When modified, this kind of power can be had for racing and other short duration uses but it has no relevance if you want to fly with this engine. When turbocharged, up to 275 hp could be used for take-off & initial climb but continuous power should be limited to around 170.
The exact horsepower you get will depend on your choice of intake systems. A very simple manifold like the one I originally used with three Mikuni motorcycle carbs will produce about 160 hp at 6000 rpm. The somewhat better tuned manifold I now use with the EC2 EFI system produces about 180 hp at the same speed. Construction of this manifold (built from pieces of the stock system) was covered in our newsletter, “Rotary Aviation News.” An optimally tuned manifold will get you close to 200 hp. By using an RD-1C gear drive and increasing engine rpm to 7200, I was able to get about 200 hp for the Sun 100 race in 2004.
Exhaust tuning is not as critical as the intake system on the rotary. Any low restriction type system will work adequately. I do recommend a muffler as the exhaust note from the rotary at full song can be un-nerving. I originally built a simple muffler using a 15 inch length of 6 inch diameter pipe which makes my RV-4 quieter that the Lycoming powered version. Details of manifold & exhaust construction are in the conversion guide we publish. All rotary exhaust systems should be constructed from 321 stainless tubing (or better) due to the higher EGT of the rotary. Don’t use the massive (18 pound) cast iron exhaust manifold from the car.
Update 7/31/04: I eventually built a tuned header exhaust system and gained about 6 hp and fuel economy improved a bit as well.
If you need more than 200 hp, you should look to the Mazda 20B three-rotor engine. These are more expensive and harder to find but they will make 240 to 300 reliable hp when normally aspirated.
Update 7/31/04: The availability of the Renesis (RX8) engine provides another option if you need slightly over 200 hp. This the engine I am installing on the RV-4 and I expect around 225 hp.
Note! Our power estimates are based on “as installed” test results comparing the rotary powered RV-4 with other RV-4s powered with 150 to 180 hp Lycomings. None of our engines have even been near a dynamometer. BACK TO TOP.
Q. What is the highest time on a rotary in aircraft service?
A. I have the highest time in an airplane that I know of. (1400+ hours as of 07/31/2004) Jim Mayfield had about 2500 total hours on a rotary powered gyrocopter. BACK TO TOP.
Q. How much does the rotary weigh?
A. Weight was one of the primary reasons I chose this engine. The only thing that really counts is what the total system with re-drive, cooling systems, engine mount, etc weighs. This is called firewall forward (FWF) weight. In my case, this is about 345 pounds. From my research, it appeared to be the only auto engine available which would equal the weight, power and reliability of the O-320 or O-360 Lycoming. ANY automotive V6 piston engine will be much heavier.
Update 7/31/04: By careful attention to details, I have reduced the FWF weight by about 30 lbs in the Renesis installation.
Here is the breakdown of system weights in my airplane. This list is a bit out of date because it does not reflect many changes I have made (like the EFI system) but will give you a good idea of what you can expect.
Mazda 13B Engine Core 180 lbs. (incl. water pump)
RD-1B 42 lbs.
Starter (RX-7) 7.5 lbs.
Alternator (Mazda 70Amp) 9 lbs.
Evaporator Cores (Qty. 2) 7 lbs. (total)
Oil Cooler (stock Mazda) 8 lbs.
Intake Manifold + fuel rails 8 lbs.
Coolant (7 qts.) 14 lbs.
Ignition Coil Assys. 2.5 lbs.
Total Engine Weight 278 lbs.
Exhaust System 8 lbs.
Engine Submount 7 lbs.
Main Engine Mount (Modified RV-4) 15 lbs.
Brackets, Hoses, et. al. 5 lbs.
Oil (6 qts.) 12 lbs.
Total Installed Weight 325 lbs. (Firewall Forward)
BACK TO TOP.
Q. What year engine do you recommend?
A. Any of the RX-7/RX-8 13B engines from 1986 through 2004 are good. The most abundant models are the years 1986-88 which have parts that are all interchangeable. Most parts are physically the same in later years but rotor and counter weights were slightly lighter and these must be matched up. Either the normally aspirated or turbocharged engine is acceptable. Even if you do not intend to turbo charge you airplane, the turbo model works well when normally aspirated. Mazda still makes the RX-7 but it is no longer sold in the US (after 1996).
With the introduction of the RX-8, Mazda introduced a new generation of 13B engines called the RENESIS. IT is now available to us, and we expect 225 hp normally aspirated in aircraft service. BACK TO TOP.
A. A relatively stock 13B two-rotor engine used in the RX-7 will deliver from 150-200 hp in aircraft service. You may hear stories about 400 hp or more from other sources. When modified, this kind of power can be had for racing and other short duration uses but it has no relevance if you want to fly with this engine. When turbocharged, up to 275 hp could be used for take-off & initial climb but continuous power should be limited to around 170.
The exact horsepower you get will depend on your choice of intake systems. A very simple manifold like the one I originally used with three Mikuni motorcycle carbs will produce about 160 hp at 6000 rpm. The somewhat better tuned manifold I now use with the EC2 EFI system produces about 180 hp at the same speed. Construction of this manifold (built from pieces of the stock system) was covered in our newsletter, “Rotary Aviation News.” An optimally tuned manifold will get you close to 200 hp. By using an RD-1C gear drive and increasing engine rpm to 7200, I was able to get about 200 hp for the Sun 100 race in 2004.
Exhaust tuning is not as critical as the intake system on the rotary. Any low restriction type system will work adequately. I do recommend a muffler as the exhaust note from the rotary at full song can be un-nerving. I originally built a simple muffler using a 15 inch length of 6 inch diameter pipe which makes my RV-4 quieter that the Lycoming powered version. Details of manifold & exhaust construction are in the conversion guide we publish. All rotary exhaust systems should be constructed from 321 stainless tubing (or better) due to the higher EGT of the rotary. Don’t use the massive (18 pound) cast iron exhaust manifold from the car.
Update 7/31/04: I eventually built a tuned header exhaust system and gained about 6 hp and fuel economy improved a bit as well.
If you need more than 200 hp, you should look to the Mazda 20B three-rotor engine. These are more expensive and harder to find but they will make 240 to 300 reliable hp when normally aspirated.
Update 7/31/04: The availability of the Renesis (RX8) engine provides another option if you need slightly over 200 hp. This the engine I am installing on the RV-4 and I expect around 225 hp.
Note! Our power estimates are based on “as installed” test results comparing the rotary powered RV-4 with other RV-4s powered with 150 to 180 hp Lycomings. None of our engines have even been near a dynamometer. BACK TO TOP.
Q. What is the highest time on a rotary in aircraft service?
A. I have the highest time in an airplane that I know of. (1400+ hours as of 07/31/2004) Jim Mayfield had about 2500 total hours on a rotary powered gyrocopter. BACK TO TOP.
Q. How much does the rotary weigh?
A. Weight was one of the primary reasons I chose this engine. The only thing that really counts is what the total system with re-drive, cooling systems, engine mount, etc weighs. This is called firewall forward (FWF) weight. In my case, this is about 345 pounds. From my research, it appeared to be the only auto engine available which would equal the weight, power and reliability of the O-320 or O-360 Lycoming. ANY automotive V6 piston engine will be much heavier.
Update 7/31/04: By careful attention to details, I have reduced the FWF weight by about 30 lbs in the Renesis installation.
Here is the breakdown of system weights in my airplane. This list is a bit out of date because it does not reflect many changes I have made (like the EFI system) but will give you a good idea of what you can expect.
Mazda 13B Engine Core 180 lbs. (incl. water pump)
RD-1B 42 lbs.
Starter (RX-7) 7.5 lbs.
Alternator (Mazda 70Amp) 9 lbs.
Evaporator Cores (Qty. 2) 7 lbs. (total)
Oil Cooler (stock Mazda) 8 lbs.
Intake Manifold + fuel rails 8 lbs.
Coolant (7 qts.) 14 lbs.
Ignition Coil Assys. 2.5 lbs.
Total Engine Weight 278 lbs.
Exhaust System 8 lbs.
Engine Submount 7 lbs.
Main Engine Mount (Modified RV-4) 15 lbs.
Brackets, Hoses, et. al. 5 lbs.
Oil (6 qts.) 12 lbs.
Total Installed Weight 325 lbs. (Firewall Forward)
BACK TO TOP.
Q. What year engine do you recommend?
A. Any of the RX-7/RX-8 13B engines from 1986 through 2004 are good. The most abundant models are the years 1986-88 which have parts that are all interchangeable. Most parts are physically the same in later years but rotor and counter weights were slightly lighter and these must be matched up. Either the normally aspirated or turbocharged engine is acceptable. Even if you do not intend to turbo charge you airplane, the turbo model works well when normally aspirated. Mazda still makes the RX-7 but it is no longer sold in the US (after 1996).
With the introduction of the RX-8, Mazda introduced a new generation of 13B engines called the RENESIS. IT is now available to us, and we expect 225 hp normally aspirated in aircraft service. BACK TO TOP.
08-23-2013, 02:11 PM
#97
08-23-2013, 02:16 PM
#98
I'm still sceptical about your claims and the numbers posted.
None of the members here in So Cal have had their engine replaced that I know of.
Maybe one, but there are more than 25 of us.
Of course a few have moved on, but their engines never blew.
Maybe we know how to REDLINE.
None of the members here in So Cal have had their engine replaced that I know of.
Maybe one, but there are more than 25 of us.
Of course a few have moved on, but their engines never blew.
Maybe we know how to REDLINE.
Are you serious?