Frankenstein Fun Thread Let it all Rip!
12-16-2014, 10:49 PM
#51
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Correct, no one is, because no one has. That logic is easy.
With one big caviate...
I think TougeFactory would probably object to you labeling them that. However, they would probably have a solid justification for labeling YOU that
Um...yeah.
And the caviate.
You should look up FlyinMiata. Specifically, their LS3 swapped Miatas. They charge $47,000 + a car + options for a turn key LS3 swap into any 1990-2014 Miata. And people pay it. Regularly. They have at least 2 paid turn key swaps in the shop at any point in time, and they have a 10 week turnover time. The LS parts list to do the swap properly, using all parts that they can source from GM or they have custom developed and then made manufacturing runs of, is $17,000 plus engine plus wiring harness. So even with a junkyard engine just the parts list is nudging $20,000. Sure they have a bit of markup in there probably, but this is the price of a swap that has been done a lot, done regularly, that they have refined and perfected over many years of doing it, and in a platform where available space is literally the ONLY complication.
Contrast that to the RX-8, where space is still a problem, there isn't a single swap component that is developed and available off the shelf, where there is significant electronic consideration to solve, and where there is only 1 fully completed LS swap known in the world (that isn't selling).
Rather than just discarding that, maybe you should re-read it a few times and really think about it. Perhaps you will see why we don't believe your budget build numbers, and while we think you can sell it, it will be for a straight up loss in parts without even placing a value in time.
Might you prove us all wrong? Sure, it's possible. But we aren't holding our breath. You are Todd with a TIG and free time after all...
With one big caviate...
I think TougeFactory would probably object to you labeling them that. However, they would probably have a solid justification for labeling YOU that
And the caviate.
You should look up FlyinMiata. Specifically, their LS3 swapped Miatas. They charge $47,000 + a car + options for a turn key LS3 swap into any 1990-2014 Miata. And people pay it. Regularly. They have at least 2 paid turn key swaps in the shop at any point in time, and they have a 10 week turnover time. The LS parts list to do the swap properly, using all parts that they can source from GM or they have custom developed and then made manufacturing runs of, is $17,000 plus engine plus wiring harness. So even with a junkyard engine just the parts list is nudging $20,000. Sure they have a bit of markup in there probably, but this is the price of a swap that has been done a lot, done regularly, that they have refined and perfected over many years of doing it, and in a platform where available space is literally the ONLY complication.
Contrast that to the RX-8, where space is still a problem, there isn't a single swap component that is developed and available off the shelf, where there is significant electronic consideration to solve, and where there is only 1 fully completed LS swap known in the world (that isn't selling).
Rather than just discarding that, maybe you should re-read it a few times and really think about it. Perhaps you will see why we don't believe your budget build numbers, and while we think you can sell it, it will be for a straight up loss in parts without even placing a value in time.
Might you prove us all wrong? Sure, it's possible. But we aren't holding our breath. You are Todd with a TIG and free time after all...
12-16-2014, 10:57 PM
#52
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That car will sell, someone just needs cash money to make a deal. They will take way less than 38k right now and I bet it will end up selling for sub 30k. And Touge Factory does legit work, if I were seriously thinking about a LS swap I would buy that car, it just makes sense.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 12-16-2014 at 10:59 PM.
12-16-2014, 11:09 PM
#53
We have 2 FD's that roadrace locally...one is a turbo charged 20B that makes about 650WHP in race trim.....the other is a LS swapped no expenses spared build that is about the same power
Which car do you think wins all the races?....and it's not the drivers....they are both very good
It is almost always the 20B powered car....it breaks less....is easier on the brakes, and doesn't shred the rear tires getting the power down
Still sure the rotary is crap and a V8 will blow it's doors off
Also .....it often will beat the full blown Porsche Cup Car that the local guys drove at Daytona 24Hrs........
Slow.....maybe not
Which car do you think wins all the races?....and it's not the drivers....they are both very good
It is almost always the 20B powered car....it breaks less....is easier on the brakes, and doesn't shred the rear tires getting the power down
Still sure the rotary is crap and a V8 will blow it's doors off
Also .....it often will beat the full blown Porsche Cup Car that the local guys drove at Daytona 24Hrs........
Slow.....maybe not
12-16-2014, 11:22 PM
#55
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hmmmm a lot of reasonable people say that the there is a benefit to having a rotory engine,,
the way i see it to clear things up
curb weight 3,000lbs
engine weight 250lbs
hp ~230hp
tq ~160ftlbs
cost to own, a rebuild every 110,000km $2,000 to $4,000 ......
the 93 civic eg me and my brother built and am curently rebuilding
has a b18c1 usdm GSR, cams, intake mani, headers, cam gears, 3"exhaust, bolt ons to the bitties
curb weight 2,100lbs
engine weight ~320lbs
hp ~180lbs
tq ~130lbs
point being his civic beat my Rex i dont miss gears like him either, ever.
its a mixture of components that make a car
power to weight ratio
civic 193hp/2100lbs = .08hp/lbs
Rx8 230hp/3000 = .07hp/lbs
handling is a myth... 50/50 weight :/ not nessary, everyone enters a corner everyone slows down and powers out of it,,, guy with a higher power to weight crawls away every time.
all that is impportant is that you know your car your particular balance and your LIMITS.
engine needs to be powerful, easy to make more power, reliable, and cheap to rebuild/repair the renny is not this __----(period)----__
if you want 50/50 throw a sand bag or two in the trunk, durrr
if you say you have some magical connection to the renny it's either you're,
one, too scared to go think outside the bun,
two, your a keyboard warrior where the dirtiest your hands have ever been is a diy oil change or mabe even dare I say it,,, A BRAKE JOB :O (oowww noooo but my brakes need to be done by a trained tech or ill die) I was an apprentice tech, we learned by messing with peoples cars testing and doing it over,, thats all shops don't think you're special. never think you're special. lol
or three you do like the fact that it revs up to 9,500rpm sounds cools and makes you think your in some kind of anime fighter space craft with a crazy futeristic steam punk barrel shaped engine,
just my personal thoughts on rotary purists,, a lot of swaps and swap ideas get hated on, why because of the above ^^^ just saying
the way i see it to clear things up
curb weight 3,000lbs
engine weight 250lbs
hp ~230hp
tq ~160ftlbs
cost to own, a rebuild every 110,000km $2,000 to $4,000 ......
the 93 civic eg me and my brother built and am curently rebuilding
has a b18c1 usdm GSR, cams, intake mani, headers, cam gears, 3"exhaust, bolt ons to the bitties
curb weight 2,100lbs
engine weight ~320lbs
hp ~180lbs
tq ~130lbs
point being his civic beat my Rex i dont miss gears like him either, ever.
its a mixture of components that make a car
power to weight ratio
civic 193hp/2100lbs = .08hp/lbs
Rx8 230hp/3000 = .07hp/lbs
handling is a myth... 50/50 weight :/ not nessary, everyone enters a corner everyone slows down and powers out of it,,, guy with a higher power to weight crawls away every time.
all that is impportant is that you know your car your particular balance and your LIMITS.
engine needs to be powerful, easy to make more power, reliable, and cheap to rebuild/repair the renny is not this __----(period)----__
if you want 50/50 throw a sand bag or two in the trunk, durrr
if you say you have some magical connection to the renny it's either you're,
one, too scared to go think outside the bun
,two, your a keyboard warrior where the dirtiest your hands have ever been is a diy oil change or mabe even dare I say it,,, A BRAKE JOB :O (oowww noooo but my brakes need to be done by a trained tech or ill die) I was an apprentice tech, we learned by messing with peoples cars testing and doing it over,, thats all shops don't think you're special. never think you're special. lol
or three you do like the fact that it revs up to 9,500rpm sounds cools and makes you think your in some kind of anime fighter space craft with a crazy futeristic steam punk barrel shaped engine,
just my personal thoughts on rotary purists,, a lot of swaps and swap ideas get hated on, why because of the above ^^^ just saying
12-16-2014, 11:32 PM
#56
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Some very key problems with your perspective here... I agree with the general intent of the message, but you aren't arguing it very well.
Using peak power is a critical problem with any internet or couch based racing. It just doesn't work that way in the real world. Peak power is a momentary thing, and a race isn't. The important metric would actually be the total area under the power curve. Draw a vertical line on the dyno charge where your revs fall to after a shift, and another at the point where you shift. The area between those lines and under the charted power line is what is important. More area = faster, even if the one with more area doesn't have a higher peak.
This is a pretty incorrect statement. The better grip and front/rear balance a car has, the more speed they will carry through the corner. The car with more power to weight may accelerate faster, but the first X of that time will be spent just trying to catch up to where the other car is already at and climbing.
It's why Miatas catch Vettes in novice track days. Miatas have a dramatically higher corner speed even in the hands of a novice, where as the Vettes (in the hands of a novice) always tiptoe through the corners. The Miata has the faster lap times though, which means that the Vette's superior speed and power isn't actually making up the penalty of the slower corner speeds.
As drivers get better, this obviously narrows considerably, and the Vette can be used to it's full potential and walk the Miata every time, but the importance of balance and grip isn't a myth, and it is proven every single track event every where in the world.
It's why Miatas catch Vettes in novice track days. Miatas have a dramatically higher corner speed even in the hands of a novice, where as the Vettes (in the hands of a novice) always tiptoe through the corners. The Miata has the faster lap times though, which means that the Vette's superior speed and power isn't actually making up the penalty of the slower corner speeds.
As drivers get better, this obviously narrows considerably, and the Vette can be used to it's full potential and walk the Miata every time, but the importance of balance and grip isn't a myth, and it is proven every single track event every where in the world.
12-16-2014, 11:46 PM
#58
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re-reading i did not present my thoughts verry well, lol
what I should have said is that for handling being 100lbs to 300lbs off wont kill, you and from 50/50 that probably would put you right next to a typical FR coupe,
speaking about peak powers tho the Rx-8 climbs pretty fast especialy in 6speed vs the civic but there noot that far off I realize some machines have broad power curves allowing them to shift early and clim in rpm while some just spike near redline,
but Im still stuck on power vs weight you gotta have that reliable power, and for me it have to be "reasonable" throwing money at rebuilds for little gains dosent seam "reasonable"
what I should have said is that for handling being 100lbs to 300lbs off wont kill, you and from 50/50 that probably would put you right next to a typical FR coupe,
speaking about peak powers tho the Rx-8 climbs pretty fast especialy in 6speed vs the civic but there noot that far off I realize some machines have broad power curves allowing them to shift early and clim in rpm while some just spike near redline,
but Im still stuck on power vs weight you gotta have that reliable power, and for me it have to be "reasonable" throwing money at rebuilds for little gains dosent seam "reasonable"
12-16-2014, 11:54 PM
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Yeah this isnt an arguement that will be won by the "big heavy lumpy" motor swap guys. Not against these numbers. Maybe im too competitive. On another note there should be two subforums in the frankenstein section. One for scalpel precise rotarys and the other for well hung piston guys (not gay just in response to the compensation comment)
12-16-2014, 11:54 PM
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You can get at least 400,000 miles out of Renesis engines for the price of a zero mile DIY budget LS swap that will take a rather large chunk of your life to complete, and even once it's running you are 400,000 miles behind and almost certainly have bugs and quirks that constantly need chasing...
The Renesis sounds pretty reasonable to me from that perspective.
If the reliability is really the core issue though, an even more reasonable choice would be to go get a car that makes that power from the factory and is cheaper.
There are very valid reasons behind swaps. I would still love to do a swap myself, a rotary into a Miata or an Exocet. But I don't pretend that the swap is anything other than something I'd like to do, for the hell of it. Any logical financial reasoning is against it, any reliability reasoning is against it, and any power reasoning is against it.
So yeah, I can accepts reasons for doing a swap, but reliability, gas mileage, for resale, because it's cheaper, etc... those are all patently absurd reasons, because they will never ever be fulfilled.
The pleasure of building something unique? THAT is something that very much can be fulfilled in a swap.
The Renesis sounds pretty reasonable to me from that perspective.
If the reliability is really the core issue though, an even more reasonable choice would be to go get a car that makes that power from the factory and is cheaper.
There are very valid reasons behind swaps. I would still love to do a swap myself, a rotary into a Miata or an Exocet. But I don't pretend that the swap is anything other than something I'd like to do, for the hell of it. Any logical financial reasoning is against it, any reliability reasoning is against it, and any power reasoning is against it.
So yeah, I can accepts reasons for doing a swap, but reliability, gas mileage, for resale, because it's cheaper, etc... those are all patently absurd reasons, because they will never ever be fulfilled.
The pleasure of building something unique? THAT is something that very much can be fulfilled in a swap.
12-17-2014, 12:08 AM
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You can get at least 400,000 miles out of Renesis engines for the price of a zero mile DIY budget LS swap that will take a rather large chunk of your life to complete, and even once it's running you are 400,000 miles behind and almost certainly have bugs and quirks that constantly need chasing...
The Renesis sounds pretty reasonable to me from that perspective.
If the reliability is really the core issue though, an even more reasonable choice would be to go get a car that makes that power from the factory and is cheaper.
There are very valid reasons behind swaps. I would still love to do a swap myself, a rotary into a Miata or an Exocet. But I don't pretend that the swap is anything other than something I'd like to do, for the hell of it. Any logical financial reasoning is against it, any reliability reasoning is against it, and any power reasoning is against it.
So yeah, I can accepts reasons for doing a swap, but reliability, gas mileage, for resale, because it's cheaper, etc... those are all patently absurd reasons, because they will never ever be fulfilled.
The pleasure of building something unique? THAT is something that very much can be fulfilled in a swap.
The Renesis sounds pretty reasonable to me from that perspective.
If the reliability is really the core issue though, an even more reasonable choice would be to go get a car that makes that power from the factory and is cheaper.
There are very valid reasons behind swaps. I would still love to do a swap myself, a rotary into a Miata or an Exocet. But I don't pretend that the swap is anything other than something I'd like to do, for the hell of it. Any logical financial reasoning is against it, any reliability reasoning is against it, and any power reasoning is against it.
So yeah, I can accepts reasons for doing a swap, but reliability, gas mileage, for resale, because it's cheaper, etc... those are all patently absurd reasons, because they will never ever be fulfilled.
The pleasure of building something unique? THAT is something that very much can be fulfilled in a swap.
That Is a very foolish thing to say. I have many swap under my belt and most of which sold for a profit. The LSX is more fuel efficient and has more potential for power, and notoriously long lived. Come to think about it, guys with FDs that **** turbos or apex seals, drop in an LS1/T56 and get 20k plus. Ask me how i know? A buddy of mine deployed had me and another frjend build his 93 with a mildly modified LS2. He sold it a few months after he got back to a guy in canada for almost 30k who ia a well known member on norotors. And that comparison about a 400k mile RX8 against azero milee lsx build is ridiculous. My high mile LS1 will outlast a zero mile Renesis owned by even the most meticulous person in here. I dont want to get into the numbers but once my build is shaken down i will install the forged LS2 and make some real power. Even then im not into the build verh much considering whats its worth to the right buyer. Swaps are a very narrow market and always a tough sale so its always a tough call. Im quite confident
12-17-2014, 12:25 AM
#63
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400,000 miles in Renesis engines is only $20,000 worth of $5,000 custom hand build engines, each lasting 100,000 miles.
That same $20,000 into a backyard LS swap in an RX-8 gets you to first turning the key and rolling out of the driveway.
THAT is the comparison I was making.
Yes, I understand that there are swaps that can be done for a profit. I totally get it. I even gave you a really clear example a few posts back of a company that does, on average, 10ish turnkey swaps a year at $47k+
That doesn't happen with RX-8s, and you can't refute it because no RX-8 swap has been completed and then also sold for a profit. It's hard enough just to get someone to actually complete one. Every single one of them just likes to stand around and talk about how good it will be eventually one day.
I stand by the efficiency statement though. "Better gas mileage" is an argument 100% founded on the point of paying less per mile for gas. If your LS swap gets 30mpg for every single mile it drives vs an average of 16mpg for a Renesis, you will be saving 9 cents per mile at $3 a gallon, 8 cents at $4 a gallon. Lets use $3 a gallon since it is in your favor. You will break even on efficiency cost once you finally get to 222,222 miles on the swap (assuming $20,000 as a conservative estimate). But the LS makes a lot of power, and power is one of your reasons for doing the swap. So it won't get 30mpg all the time. 24mpg is probably closer. 6 cents a mile saved, pushing the break even to 320,000 miles on the swap.
See what I mean? Sure it's more efficient, but spending $20,000 to save 6 cents a mile is... absurd.
And be careful about who you put that outlast statement up against. We have a member closing in on 300,000 on his original engine, purchased new from the dealer in 2003.
That same $20,000 into a backyard LS swap in an RX-8 gets you to first turning the key and rolling out of the driveway.
THAT is the comparison I was making.
Yes, I understand that there are swaps that can be done for a profit. I totally get it. I even gave you a really clear example a few posts back of a company that does, on average, 10ish turnkey swaps a year at $47k+
That doesn't happen with RX-8s, and you can't refute it because no RX-8 swap has been completed and then also sold for a profit. It's hard enough just to get someone to actually complete one. Every single one of them just likes to stand around and talk about how good it will be eventually one day.
I stand by the efficiency statement though. "Better gas mileage" is an argument 100% founded on the point of paying less per mile for gas. If your LS swap gets 30mpg for every single mile it drives vs an average of 16mpg for a Renesis, you will be saving 9 cents per mile at $3 a gallon, 8 cents at $4 a gallon. Lets use $3 a gallon since it is in your favor. You will break even on efficiency cost once you finally get to 222,222 miles on the swap (assuming $20,000 as a conservative estimate). But the LS makes a lot of power, and power is one of your reasons for doing the swap. So it won't get 30mpg all the time. 24mpg is probably closer. 6 cents a mile saved, pushing the break even to 320,000 miles on the swap.
See what I mean? Sure it's more efficient, but spending $20,000 to save 6 cents a mile is... absurd.
And be careful about who you put that outlast statement up against. We have a member closing in on 300,000 on his original engine, purchased new from the dealer in 2003.
12-17-2014, 12:53 AM
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There is always that one. You know of one rotary to get a high mile number like that. He is probably an astrophysicist who is single and spends his weekends polishing the inside of his oil pan. Half a million miles is normal for an lsx engine used in a work truck driven by billy bob with less teeth than years completed in school. If iwas doing the swap for gas mileage i would do an EV. Anyway this thread has moreso turned into a discussion about many different things but mainly between you and I. I love V8s and you like a rotor and we both will obviously argue it to death. Anyone else have any input. And please save youre middle of the road, gray man, "i dont wanna offend anyone so ill just give everyone a high five" comments for a hippie forum. Be entertaining. Lol
12-17-2014, 04:49 AM
#66
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Many tired arguments on this thread.
Swaps seem to be for people who are trying to prove something that somehow makes them superior in their own mind, 'competing' to go FASTER!, or trying to get MORE POWER!, or MORE TORQUE!
The objective of the same tired swap argument seems to reflect the age old idiom of "MINE'S BIGGER THAN YOURS!"
I can only speak for myself when I say my '04 GT is a great fit for my idea of comfort, handling, looks, and yes, performance.
My ego does not need to be fed by some mythical standard of masculinity as defined by my choice of vehicle.
All you need for that is money.
I feel no need to to try to improve on something I really love for any other reason than peace of mind (cat delete), dependable replacement parts (BHR ignition), and possibly a little easily attainable H.P. and esoteric sound quality from adding a header.
I'm no 'purist', I know what I like and I am very happy with what I have.
I also have a decent mechanical background, and can do my own work if I choose to.
I value time far too much to waste it trying to build a better mousetrap, in this case, automobile, simply to stroke my own ego.
Swaps seem to be for people who are trying to prove something that somehow makes them superior in their own mind, 'competing' to go FASTER!, or trying to get MORE POWER!, or MORE TORQUE!
The objective of the same tired swap argument seems to reflect the age old idiom of "MINE'S BIGGER THAN YOURS!"
I can only speak for myself when I say my '04 GT is a great fit for my idea of comfort, handling, looks, and yes, performance.
My ego does not need to be fed by some mythical standard of masculinity as defined by my choice of vehicle.
All you need for that is money.
I feel no need to to try to improve on something I really love for any other reason than peace of mind (cat delete), dependable replacement parts (BHR ignition), and possibly a little easily attainable H.P. and esoteric sound quality from adding a header.
I'm no 'purist', I know what I like and I am very happy with what I have.
I also have a decent mechanical background, and can do my own work if I choose to.
I value time far too much to waste it trying to build a better mousetrap, in this case, automobile, simply to stroke my own ego.
12-17-2014, 04:57 AM
#67
Since we all seem to love "bashing and crashing" and tend to get involved in peoples BUILD THREADS doing it..... LETS DO IT HERE Keep it within the rules of Etiquette...no personal attacks....etc... I'll start out Dyno Queen ***** REW Turbo builds are still low powered crap compared to Turbo 1200whp 2JZ Supras and Twin Turbo Viper builds 
Keep it within the rules of Etiquette...no personal attacks....etc... I'll start out Dyno Queen ***** REW Turbo builds are still low powered crap compared to Turbo 1200whp 2JZ Supras and Twin Turbo Viper builds Most of the builds I've been seeing here are gonna be st cars, and most won't bother tweaking their cars to 1200hp, piston or otherwise.
Like I said, I thought peeps be buying rx8s for the love of rotary engines, obviously I'm dead wrong. I know where my loyalty lies, I hate piston engines.
12-17-2014, 05:20 AM
#68
Hey LSXREX, u ever driven a 20b, stock or worked?
The cosmo I used to own in totally stock and auto trim blasted plenty of v8s and even ran tie with the fpv turbo utes and Holden v8 utes here, let alone the rx8 20b conversion I'm working on, so I doubt there will be much on the street will embarrass me once she's running again. (Once I upgrade that box) lol
The cosmo I used to own in totally stock and auto trim blasted plenty of v8s and even ran tie with the fpv turbo utes and Holden v8 utes here, let alone the rx8 20b conversion I'm working on, so I doubt there will be much on the street will embarrass me once she's running again. (Once I upgrade that box) lol
12-17-2014, 08:28 AM
#69
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where do you guys get your swap costs from??? my 1jz over exagerated will only cost $3500-$4000 cad after tax!!
an ls swap would be just as cheap lol scrap yard ls from a truck $500,, manual tranny from??? $1000 mount kit $600 custom drie shaft $500 bits and peices $1000 lol $3500 to $4000
back yard swap means only your hands touch your car
an ls swap would be just as cheap lol scrap yard ls from a truck $500,, manual tranny from??? $1000 mount kit $600 custom drie shaft $500 bits and peices $1000 lol $3500 to $4000
back yard swap means only your hands touch your car
12-17-2014, 08:37 AM
#70
where do you guys get your swap costs from??? my 1jz over exagerated will only cost $3500-$4000 cad after tax!! an ls swap would be just as cheap lol scrap yard ls from a truck $500,, manual tranny from??? $1000 mount kit $600 custom drie shaft $500 bits and peices $1000 lol $3500 to $4000 back yard swap means only your hands touch your car
A decent radiator $$
12-17-2014, 08:42 AM
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12-17-2014, 09:26 AM
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12-17-2014, 09:30 AM
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where do you guys get your swap costs from??? my 1jz over exagerated will only cost $3500-$4000 cad after tax!!
an ls swap would be just as cheap lol scrap yard ls from a truck $500,, manual tranny from??? $1000 mount kit $600 custom drie shaft $500 bits and peices $1000 lol $3500 to $4000
back yard swap means only your hands touch your car
an ls swap would be just as cheap lol scrap yard ls from a truck $500,, manual tranny from??? $1000 mount kit $600 custom drie shaft $500 bits and peices $1000 lol $3500 to $4000
back yard swap means only your hands touch your car
Seriously. $17,000 + motor + ECU in PARTS for an LS swap into a Miata, where there are no electronic challenges and all 'custom' fabrication parts are available off the shelf
Think it through and see if you can figure out a single area in which the RX-8 would be an easier or cheaper swap. Even 1 area.
You can't, because there isn't.
So what makes you think you can do a complete swap for less than the cost of parts?
A $5,000 swap turns into a $5,000 investment into a car that is later sold as a "project" for "someone else to finish"
