eviltwinkie

Ditto...usually I found its because I reflash or reset trims while the car is hot. It really needs to be dead cold for it to trim easily without doing this issue.

The only "workaround" I have found is to artificially keep the idle up for like a minute...then let it dip again to right where it stumbles...and then bring it up ever so slightly...a few minutes of this and the car is good to go...

This is my "HOT" reflash/retrim procedure...

Best answer as to why...our cars are heavily modded...I'm sure that its mucking with a programming bug...like an out of bounds issue or a formula limitation...

X min of runtime x trim = blah type thing...

without initial tables or something...it simply cannot figure out that it should trim to 0% and be fine...so its doing something wonky until it builds it up...

eviltwinkie

Haa..yeah...while it sucks to get passed because of traction issues...it IS HELLA FUN...

Something about when you get comfortable getting the car to go straight while you rotate it sideways in preparation for the next corner...its zen...

Chalk your tires, check your pressures, and align the rear to 1.5 - 1.75 max (track duty only) and front to 1.3 - 1.5 max (track duty only)...thats the n00b sweet spot I found for me...

What tires did you end up getting?

eviltwinkie

I think it would be fair to get the dyno results between the mazsport and oem systems...unfortunately due to the number of variables here, its technically impossible to truly discern if in fact the claim holds merit.

So far...Mazsport coils + Greedy Snail = Requires further investigation...

No way to truly ever validate if the coils caused detonation unless we can get hard data to form a reasonable test case which could identify a possible senario...I havent had time to figure out why the dwell settings are different...but thats not for discussion in Jeff's AP thread. Unfortunately...

Still this sucks for everyone involved...




I like to think of it as engine manglement...

You damn right...

mysql

Right you are, I don't want to thread jack, so my last post on this topic...

I beg to differ with your conclusion:

1. Car ran fine with int-x and oem coils.
2. Car ran pretty OK, with int-x and mazsport coils. Had detonation.
3. Car was retuned with int-x and mazsport coils, Still not 100%. Scott tuned for 10 AFR. Despite this, had detonation again.
4. Fuel management switched to AP with mazsport coils, ran like ****. No detonation, but couldn't accelerate properly either.
5. Fuel management with AP, and oem coils, ran fine with no issues.

Seems conclusive to me where my problems stemmed from. I had over a year of no real issues before the ignition. And once it was gone, I had no issues again.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Cracks come from detonation.
Cracks don't always leak immediately.

That is all.

eviltwinkie

Cracks sometimes have detonation.
Cracks always leak immediately.
Especially after super taco tuesday.

That is more.


heh...

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

For me, its the Splenda that does the trick.
Of course, I use something like 8 packets in my 20 oz coffee!

Rocketman1976

Am I not understanding something correctly?

Are the 1a and 1b maps the actual map we are supposed to use at all times with our Cobb?

I thought they were just to set a base tune for a data log and then we request a fine tuned map from Jeff.

When I got my STFT and LTFT to hang right around 0 +/-2% my AFR's were pretty much the same as they were without the Cobb in stock form, still at 11.2 above 6000 rpms and below that was always fine at 12.8-14.5.

Jeff said something earlier about not understanding the use of his maps and I just wanted to figure out if I am off with my understanding of the procedures.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Rocketman1976

Thats what I thought after I looked back at the old e-mail.

I guess I just figured it was only for a base setup and the adjustment map would follow because it basically gave almost the same data log as my stock dealership flash. There was a time a few weeks ago, when you said I may only see little gain if any at all, and that had me thinking it was just a base. I guess Mazda finally released a somewhat decent Flash.

It's just aggravating to spend $700 and have 0 +/- 1 HP gain, and then with the Cobb Stage I map if you use a different kind of windshield washer fluid other than stock your car may explode! If we were people that would leave our cars stock we probably wouldn't be buying an AP, why don't they release some tunes for a few of the major intake systems, or at least one for a drop-in filter...

I'm Glad you're coming to Florida and can't wait to see some dyno numbers from a hands-on tune.

shaunv74

Hmm.

Well I'm seeing LTFT's of 0 to -1 so I believe I am running the correct iteration and WOT AFR's of mid 11's over 6Krpm. What is your advice?

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

Your NA Shaun so you could be in the 12/14 AFR range at high rpms. You have cool ambient temps and humidity up in Skiatle.
At least cooler than down here.

arghx7

I'll throw in some perspective from spending many, many hours tuning a 400whp Rx-7 on a standalone mostly by myself (with the help of info available online), from just trying to get the car to idle and accelerate from a dead stop to building a fuel and timing map for all levels of engine load.

I'm not saying this to troll or anything, but this whole cracked iron thing is something you risk if you for whatever reason get a tuning-in-a-box mentality versus a "let's take this hardware and crack open the ECU to see what we can play around with" mentality. Most LS1 guys just take their 'maro or whatever to one of the 2109842842 GM shops in the country and get their stock ECU tuned to their exact setup. As far as rotaries go, just how many cracked irons has anyone here seen that weren't due to detonating? That's why you datalog your knock sensors not just fly blind. You can't even trust knock sensors half the time, they read all sorts of crazy phantom knock, which means you have to learn how to read plugs too. Remember, you're not driving a car anymore, you're flying a spaceship, at least for a while until you've done a ton of logging and can be sure the motor is running well under all conditions. And even then something can still go wrong.

A basemap (call it what you want, that's what these AP maps are) is just a basemap, why do some owners think everything is going to just work fine with little/no risk on a basemap? It's designed for a certain setup, if yours deviates, you are rolling the dice. And yes, change ANYTHING on a car and you can need a retune. That's just how it goes. It would be even worse if the Rx-8 PCM were speed density like a Honda or an FD.

This whole "wait, I paid X dollars and I only got 1 hp" mentality misses the point I think. You are paying to crack the ECU open, the rest is up to you or to your tuner. That's how tuning works... if you get a one-size-fits all solution, all you can do is cross your fingers. That may work fine on a basically stock chipped VW 1.8T motor but when you start mixing up different stuff like ignition coils etc what do you expect? If various vendors (I am not trying to call out anyone in particular here, this is not a personal attack, just an observation) are trying to sell basemaps as custom maps (or people are treating them as such, remember, a basemap is just a basemap!) then there are going to be occasions of engine damage or driveability problems. Even the "stage 1, 2, etc" gives a false sense of security. When you get to a certain level of modification (and we can debate what this level is) you are flying a spaceship! There is no staged programming for a spaceship, it requires constant attention to keep from failing.

When you start modding your car significantly (like putting a turbo where there wasn't one) the car can easily become tempermental and break way more often. That's called having a project car.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

IF YOU ARE SEEING AFRs AT WOT THAT DO NOT FALL IN LINE WITH WHAT IS MENTIONED IN THE FIRST POST, YOU NEED A CUSTOM ADJUSTMENT!!!!!


How many more ways do I need to say this?!?!?!?!?

Its really easy -

You send an e-mail to ap@mazdamaniac (.com) with the following information:

1) Real Name
2) Forum Name (if you are on the RX-8 Forum)
3) E-mail address you used to purchase your AccessPORT
4) Year of manufacture of your RX-8
5) Model (M/T, A/T)
6) Location (specifically, if you are in California or have a California model)
7) Induction (normally aspirated, turbo, supercharger)
8) Fuel injectors (if different from stock)
9) MAF/intake setup (custom, MazSport, OE, GReddy, etc.)


Attach a copy of the calibration you are CURRENTLY RUNNING AFTER FOLLOWING THE ORIGINAL INSTRUCTIONS AND HAVE THE FUEL TRIMS DIALED IN.

Rocketman1976

I did a few times. I am just waiting for the actual dyno tune session now since that is soon anyways.

I wouldn't be whining so much if I could have gotten a dyno tune from a local Tuner but I don't think that will ever happen. Which makes me feel that at this point in time the AP is a useless dash board artifact, because it seems no one but you and Cobb know how to use it.

I have waited for a long time, and I would much rather pay for a dyno than expect something for free from you or anyone.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Hardly. The calibrations these people are running are custom designed for their setup and then are tuned based on feedback from the owner.
The cracked iron in question happened from a detonation event suffered when the motor was running on a diferent EMS.

BTW - the OE knock sensor is useless. It doesn't see detonation on this motor.

arghx7

^^ are these custom setups built at a shop on a dyno, or does it consist of giving someone a laundry list of mods and hoping for the best? Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

I'm not questioning anyone's tuning ability personally, I just think it's the owner's responsibility for their own **** and the pros can't do everything for your car because they'd never make any money spending all the hours it REALLY takes to get all but the most common setups running perfect.

mysql

For the record, I haven't had anything even remotely close to detonation on the accessport. If your intake is fubar, the car ends up running rich. So even less than ideal setups don't result with damage to the engine. You might however end up with bogging from too much fuel being dumped. Making the MAF sensor happy is easy to fix.

You must have missed the part where I had the vehicle retuned by the guy who made both the fuel management system and the ignition coils. I'd like to hear how you would have resolved the situation in my shoes without the detonation issues. Please refer to my timeline before making further assumptions: https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...postcount=2961

I never play games with my engine. I like to think I have done everything properly, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way.


BTW here's my car last week:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FEuBKufkeik

Engine still runs strong. Just leaking a bit of oil.

Rocketman1976

The Dwell issue really should have been stated in the description of the Part from the beginning. Especially since most people that have really wanted an ignition were people running FI.

Whether it was the cause of the problem or not, its something we should have been told. Instead people put it on their car and expect to be turning up their boost and then... Surprise!

mysql

So... what's the expected outcome from improper dwell settings on ignition coils at 11 psi of boost?

arghx7

From a tuning perspective, I would've turned down the boost and backed off the timing until it stopped detonating, I personally would not have just dumped fuel into it. I would've also run 10 heat range plugs if they weren't in there already. and if that didn't work I would've put the stock coils back in barring some new information about different dwell settings or whatever. The decision you made at the time made sense.

My point is that **** breaks on high compression turbo setups, and relying on basemaps makes it worse. That wasn't necessarily a direct jab at you or anything (although I can see how it came across that way), it's just exasperation at the Rx-8 community for what I see as collective naivete. I know that makes me sound like a ***** but that's how I feel.

mysql

That's what I did. I didn't **** around with it. I made an appointment for the car to be retuned, and had to take off of work in order to make it happen.

I already run colder rx-7 plugs. The 10 AFR thing was a misunderstanding, I didn't ask for it, but that's what I got, and it only helps to illustrate that the tune wasn't anywhere close to the bleeding edge.


At the time, there was no talk about dwell changes. All we knew was the coils were successfully used and there were dyno sheets to show it allowed a rx8 to get past the 330 whp barrier where the spark was usually blowing out. Given that the coils were brand spanking new, I had no reason to question them. I put my focus on getting the vehicle properly retuned so there wouldn't be a repeat detonation.


It did sound directed at me, but thanks for clearing it up. Unfortunately your line of logic isn't going to be well received here since the base maps for the AP differ from the traditional tuning methods of adding and removing fuel randomly and watching what the changes do on a dyno run. Jeff's generic maps for FI worked out of the box for my injector setup. I go as high as 11.8 PSI (according to the boost controller peak). That's pretty damn impressive.

arghx7

I can't question the decisions you made at the time, they made sense based on the information you had. Coils do have different dwell configurations, but who knows what's optimum without this kind of testing? Again, you can't be faulted directly.

The plugs you ran are most likely the 9 heat range BUR9EQ or something similar. I would've run at least 10 heat range because of the high compression rotors. Those are the B10EGV/BR10EIX plugs, which only cost about $6-7 a plug but require a thin wall socket to install (at least on older rotaries) and I think would be safer for your application. Typically on an FD people run them with over 350 to the wheels or so, but that's with 9:1 rotors. But expect to change them more frequently. What you really need to do is remove a fresh set of plugs from the motor after some hard running and look at the ground strap. If the line of "color change (from heat)" on the strap is not in the middle of the strap but near the outer ring of the plug, you may need to go colder.

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticle...ead-plugs.html

Anyway, it's a MAF-based car, there is going to be some flexibility, and it doesn't surprise me that these basemaps work so well overall. But **** happens, especially on high compression rotaries. People forget that though. Again, I direct that at no one in particular, it just seems a lot of owners (once again, this is a general comment not a direct attack) are not seasoned with custom turbo projects, which is not their fault, but they don't realize that you can expect **** to break all the time or never run like it did from the factory. That's why it kills me when I read stuff like "who cares if Mazda doesn't make a turbo Rx-8 for $40k, I can just spend X on my own kit and it will be almost as good/way better"

devildog1679

MM,

I beleive this question was already asked ans answered but I can't find it. Once we get your custome dyno tune if I ever uninstall the AP and then re-install it would the tune work the same way as before? That is as long as my mods don't change?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Yes.