Bad Guy - "Stephen_in_Seoul"
05-20-2008, 10:31 AM
#52
Lenin in Disguise
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I don't know if you can find out what credit card company he is using, but if you can, I would call the company directly. I had a customer at a business of mine do this to me, so I contacted the company directly, explained the situation, faxed them the documentation where he'd signed his cc receipt, the shipping info, and the waybill info/invoice. About 15 minutes later they closed his dispute and issued the funds back into my account.
I apologize that paypal hasn't been as much help to you as they have been to me in the past when I've contacted executive escalations. Then again there's obviously something odd going on with this guy, and the fact that he's in a country that probably doesn't hold very good business practices in general doesn't help anything. Like I've said before, if there's anything else I can help you with please feel free to contact me, I'll do what I can. I've had a good deal of experience with dealing with scam customers from the businesses I've had so I may have a few tricks left up my sleeve if this doesn't help resolve things.
I apologize that paypal hasn't been as much help to you as they have been to me in the past when I've contacted executive escalations. Then again there's obviously something odd going on with this guy, and the fact that he's in a country that probably doesn't hold very good business practices in general doesn't help anything. Like I've said before, if there's anything else I can help you with please feel free to contact me, I'll do what I can. I've had a good deal of experience with dealing with scam customers from the businesses I've had so I may have a few tricks left up my sleeve if this doesn't help resolve things.
05-20-2008, 10:48 AM
#53
Well, as of right now, the PayPal dispute is closed and they took the money and then some.
I carpet-bombed them again with an even more ominous paper trail.
I don't know his credit card company and I doubt he is going to give it to me if I ask.
I am officially out of the turbo business.
I carpet-bombed them again with an even more ominous paper trail.
I don't know his credit card company and I doubt he is going to give it to me if I ask.
I am officially out of the turbo business.
05-20-2008, 11:57 AM
#56
Piston-free 07.11.2007
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I appreciate that Jeff!
Also I should have elaborated; "F***" was an expression of how pissed I am that you got ripped off. Not frustration that I would not get my MM upgrade. Honestly, I respect you and what you do for us here too much to bust your ***** about that crap.
Also I should have elaborated; "F***" was an expression of how pissed I am that you got ripped off. Not frustration that I would not get my MM upgrade. Honestly, I respect you and what you do for us here too much to bust your ***** about that crap.
05-20-2008, 12:46 PM
#57
It's Not Easy Being Green
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Emails are a good idea and all but have you started in the resolution center?
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/we...complaint-view
They do offer protection against false chargebacks and since you have good info to back your case you should end up not losing.
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/we...complaint-view
They do offer protection against false chargebacks and since you have good info to back your case you should end up not losing.
Disputing Chargebacks
How does PayPal help sellers fight unwarranted chargebacks?
Although the credit card company ultimately decides whether or not the buyer has a valid reason for filing a chargeback, PayPal partners with our sellers to fight unwarranted chargebacks and attempts to recover funds associated with those chargebacks. We do this in two ways:
Some transactions in the United States, United Kingdom and Canada are covered by our Seller Protection Policy. If you are eligible for protection, PayPal will reimburse you.
If you resolve a dispute through the Resolution Center, Paypal will protect you 100% against any future claim, chargeback or bank reversal the buyer may file for that transaction.
In order to dispute unwarranted chargebacks, sellers must provide PayPal with appropriate evidence. There are three ways for a seller to provide evidence:
For faster resolution, go to PayPal Resolution Center.
Email chargeback-response@paypal.com.
Fax PayPal Chargeback Team 402-537-5755.
Our chargeback specialist will combine the evidence provided by the seller with any other information PayPal may already have, and will dispute the chargeback when appropriate.
If PayPal wins the chargeback on behalf of the seller, the seller will be reimbursed the funds associated with the chargeback.
How does PayPal help sellers fight unwarranted chargebacks?
Although the credit card company ultimately decides whether or not the buyer has a valid reason for filing a chargeback, PayPal partners with our sellers to fight unwarranted chargebacks and attempts to recover funds associated with those chargebacks. We do this in two ways:
Some transactions in the United States, United Kingdom and Canada are covered by our Seller Protection Policy. If you are eligible for protection, PayPal will reimburse you.
If you resolve a dispute through the Resolution Center, Paypal will protect you 100% against any future claim, chargeback or bank reversal the buyer may file for that transaction.
In order to dispute unwarranted chargebacks, sellers must provide PayPal with appropriate evidence. There are three ways for a seller to provide evidence:
For faster resolution, go to PayPal Resolution Center.
Email chargeback-response@paypal.com.
Fax PayPal Chargeback Team 402-537-5755.
Our chargeback specialist will combine the evidence provided by the seller with any other information PayPal may already have, and will dispute the chargeback when appropriate.
If PayPal wins the chargeback on behalf of the seller, the seller will be reimbursed the funds associated with the chargeback.
05-20-2008, 12:56 PM
#58
The "resolution Center" case was opened and closed all in a period of 3 hours in the middle of the night last night.
I was sent the initial PayPal escalation e-mail about the charge-back at 10pm and it was held, un-held, credited and then charged-back again and closed by 1am.
The challenge is now listed as closed and I can't even append it with new info, so I am just pounding their e-mail with stuff.
I got another response from "Carrie" that goes like this:
I was sent the initial PayPal escalation e-mail about the charge-back at 10pm and it was held, un-held, credited and then charged-back again and closed by 1am.
The challenge is now listed as closed and I can't even append it with new info, so I am just pounding their e-mail with stuff.
I got another response from "Carrie" that goes like this:
Stephanie did release the temporary hold that was placed on your PayPal
account; however, our Chargeback department debited your PayPal account
since you are not eligible for Seller Protection. Unfortunately, the
tracking information you provided shows that you shipped the merchandise
on March 27, 2008, when the payment was received on February 3, 2008.
The tracking information does not have a signature, nor does it show
delivery to the buyer's address. I understand that the buyer requested
you to declare a cheaper value on the goods to avoid Customs. I also
understand that you elected to use the cheaper shipping method per the
buyer's instructions. However, as the seller you are responsible for
ensuring that you qualify for Seller Protection to avoid these
situations. By declaring a cheaper value through Custom's you have
risked your insurance claim on the package. Please contact your local
Post Office to inquire on possible fines or punishment for declaring
merchandise below value and placing the proper insurance on the package.
It is outlined in PayPal's User Agreement the Chargeback process since
you are not eligible for Seller Protection PayPal is disputing the Case,
however, it is necessary to recover the funds per the credit card
issuing instructions. Please understand that the buyer’s credit card
company grants its members specific consumer protections, in this
situation the buyer chose to avail himself of those rights. The credit
card Company, as well as applicable law guarantees these rights, and as
such PayPal has no authority to replace or reduce any card holder’s
rights. PayPal pursued your interests under the terms and conditions
governing the reversal of these funds with all available information.
Unfortunately, we were not able to successfully dispute this chargeback
with the credit card issuer.
Please understand that the terms and conditions of dispute are governed
and administered by the issuing bank of the credit card, as well as all
applicable state and federal laws. You agreed to be bound by these terms
when you created your account, and again when you accepted this credit
card payment.
If you would like to discuss this matter further please contact me
directly at 402-952-8736. At that time we may discuss PayPal issuing a
provisional credit based on our conversation.
account; however, our Chargeback department debited your PayPal account
since you are not eligible for Seller Protection. Unfortunately, the
tracking information you provided shows that you shipped the merchandise
on March 27, 2008, when the payment was received on February 3, 2008.
The tracking information does not have a signature, nor does it show
delivery to the buyer's address. I understand that the buyer requested
you to declare a cheaper value on the goods to avoid Customs. I also
understand that you elected to use the cheaper shipping method per the
buyer's instructions. However, as the seller you are responsible for
ensuring that you qualify for Seller Protection to avoid these
situations. By declaring a cheaper value through Custom's you have
risked your insurance claim on the package. Please contact your local
Post Office to inquire on possible fines or punishment for declaring
merchandise below value and placing the proper insurance on the package.
It is outlined in PayPal's User Agreement the Chargeback process since
you are not eligible for Seller Protection PayPal is disputing the Case,
however, it is necessary to recover the funds per the credit card
issuing instructions. Please understand that the buyer’s credit card
company grants its members specific consumer protections, in this
situation the buyer chose to avail himself of those rights. The credit
card Company, as well as applicable law guarantees these rights, and as
such PayPal has no authority to replace or reduce any card holder’s
rights. PayPal pursued your interests under the terms and conditions
governing the reversal of these funds with all available information.
Unfortunately, we were not able to successfully dispute this chargeback
with the credit card issuer.
Please understand that the terms and conditions of dispute are governed
and administered by the issuing bank of the credit card, as well as all
applicable state and federal laws. You agreed to be bound by these terms
when you created your account, and again when you accepted this credit
card payment.
If you would like to discuss this matter further please contact me
directly at 402-952-8736. At that time we may discuss PayPal issuing a
provisional credit based on our conversation.
05-20-2008, 01:13 PM
#59
Administrator
iTrader: (7)
call her *** directly!
05-20-2008, 01:23 PM
#60
It's Not Easy Being Green
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The "resolution Center" case was opened and closed all in a period of 3 hours in the middle of the night last night.
I was sent the initial PayPal escalation e-mail about the charge-back at 10pm and it was held, un-held, credited and then charged-back again and closed by 1am.
The challenge is now listed as closed and I can't even append it with new info, so I am just pounding their e-mail with stuff.
I got another response from "Carrie" that goes like this:
I was sent the initial PayPal escalation e-mail about the charge-back at 10pm and it was held, un-held, credited and then charged-back again and closed by 1am.
The challenge is now listed as closed and I can't even append it with new info, so I am just pounding their e-mail with stuff.
I got another response from "Carrie" that goes like this:
Make sure you clarify with Carrie what will happen if this dispute remains closed and the USPS eventually shows that the buyer received the goods. I don't know if the post office will have issues with the insurance/customs discrepancy if you an insurance claim on the package (probably not since customs is under DHS and the post office is horribly clueless about everything) but that's probably your only avenue of recovery if the tracking sheet never indicates that the package was delivered.
05-20-2008, 01:33 PM
#61
Lenin in Disguise
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It would most likely be only partial recovery through the post office. I doubt he would want to go in there saying anything about the changed value and customs stuff, it could probably fall under mail fraud. And telling Carrie what will happen probably won't help the situation that much, I'm sure since she's a L3 rep she's familiar with situations like these.
I'm pretty sure that they closed the case so soon because they reversed the chargeback, and so the credit card company or issuing bank reversed their reversal, which caused it to debit his account again. Seeing this they most likely closed the case at the moment. I wanted him to get in touch with executive escalations because I was hoping from my experiences with them, they would credit his account so he could continue to operate until this situation was resolved. No one has proved that she isn't willing to do that yet, and it appears that this may be why she wanted him to call her from her wording on the matter, but we'll see what happens. That customs cheating stuff really kinda screwed everything, but then again I understand why you did it too. Just a tough place to be in right now.
I'm pretty sure that they closed the case so soon because they reversed the chargeback, and so the credit card company or issuing bank reversed their reversal, which caused it to debit his account again. Seeing this they most likely closed the case at the moment. I wanted him to get in touch with executive escalations because I was hoping from my experiences with them, they would credit his account so he could continue to operate until this situation was resolved. No one has proved that she isn't willing to do that yet, and it appears that this may be why she wanted him to call her from her wording on the matter, but we'll see what happens. That customs cheating stuff really kinda screwed everything, but then again I understand why you did it too. Just a tough place to be in right now.
05-20-2008, 01:51 PM
#62
It's Not Easy Being Green
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I'm pretty sure that they closed the case so soon because they reversed the chargeback, and so the credit card company or issuing bank reversed their reversal, which caused it to debit his account again. Seeing this they most likely closed the case at the moment. I wanted him to get in touch with executive escalations because I was hoping from my experiences with them, they would credit his account so he could continue to operate until this situation was resolved. No one has proved that she isn't willing to do that yet, and it appears that this may be why she wanted him to call her from her wording on the matter, but we'll see what happens. That customs cheating stuff really kinda screwed everything, but then again I understand why you did it too. Just a tough place to be in right now.
MM - was the money just sitting in Paypal or did Paypal initiate an ACH funds transfer from your bank account? You may be able to go to your bank and dispute the pull. If Paypal defaulted on their seller terms by not giving you enough time to respond to the chargeback then your bank may retire that ACH transfer. You have up to 60 days to go that route.
05-20-2008, 02:22 PM
#63
Lenin in Disguise
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I may not have been clear about what I was saying, sorry. 
If he's not protected under the seller protection policy, and the CARD COMPANY issued the chargeback (which under terms of their last lawsuit they can't contest anymore because the company's policy is out of paypal's hands) then they may have viewed that as a case that needed to be closed. Remember, the people that review these cases are different than the escalations people which have power to actually do something. It's very confusing. 
If he's not protected under the seller protection policy, and the CARD COMPANY issued the chargeback (which under terms of their last lawsuit they can't contest anymore because the company's policy is out of paypal's hands) then they may have viewed that as a case that needed to be closed. Remember, the people that review these cases are different than the escalations people which have power to actually do something. It's very confusing.
05-20-2008, 03:27 PM
#64
It's Not Easy Being Green
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I may not have been clear about what I was saying, sorry. If he's not protected under the seller protection policy, and the CARD COMPANY issued the chargeback (which under terms of their last lawsuit they can't contest anymore because the company's policy is out of paypal's hands) then they may have viewed that as a case that needed to be closed. Remember, the people that review these cases are different than the escalations people which have power to actually do something. It's very confusing.
If he's not protected under the seller protection policy, and the CARD COMPANY issued the chargeback (which under terms of their last lawsuit they can't contest anymore because the company's policy is out of paypal's hands) then they may have viewed that as a case that needed to be closed. Remember, the people that review these cases are different than the escalations people which have power to actually do something. It's very confusing. http://www.braintreepaymentsolutions...part-i-of-iii/
It looks like Paypal is playing the role of bank rather than merchant and offloading everything to MM (including the PCI chargeback fees) but not allowing him all the steps to contest the chargeback. Although maybe the paypal rep emailing will give him that opportunity. It's just strange that paypal marks this closed. As a merchant they shouldn't consider it closed even if the chargeback is closed via the normal pci process between the card issuer and the settlement agent.
BTW : Here's some good documentation on requirements for an internet shipper. Certain things like shipment date responsibilities are covered here. MM should review before talking to the paypal rep. The date of funds transfer is immaterial to the shipment date so long as MM kept this joker in the loop.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...mailorder.shtm
If MM goes onto the call with some of that info it should help him push them the right direction. While the customs filing won't help his cause it really shouldn't effect the chargeback process.
05-20-2008, 03:44 PM
#65
Lenin in Disguise
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Yeah, I think I'm pickin up what you're puttin down cat daddy. 
Doesn't hurt to be prepared, and I'm not trying to be glass half empty either.
I had two chargebacks happen to me once from scammers, and while dealing with escalations someone else opened and closed my claims escalations kept telling me to reopen probably three times. I will say paypal's practices aren't exactly unshady by any means, but it's growing obvious to me that there might be another force at work that he may not be able to help. I hope not though, and if escalations is doing their job, THEY should actually take all his documentation and deal with it themselves, and at that point they do have the power to fight the issuing bank of the credit card. We'll see what happens I guess.
Doesn't hurt to be prepared, and I'm not trying to be glass half empty either.
I had two chargebacks happen to me once from scammers, and while dealing with escalations someone else opened and closed my claims escalations kept telling me to reopen probably three times. I will say paypal's practices aren't exactly unshady by any means, but it's growing obvious to me that there might be another force at work that he may not be able to help. I hope not though, and if escalations is doing their job, THEY should actually take all his documentation and deal with it themselves, and at that point they do have the power to fight the issuing bank of the credit card. We'll see what happens I guess.
05-20-2008, 03:51 PM
#66
Well, they didn't initiate a transfer from my bank account, so the deficit is still "virtual".
However, I have thee other transactions that are acting to "pay down" the charge-back.
I would feel much better if those weren't in the mix.
I'm not sure at what point they will actually try to debit my attached account, but I'm wondering if I should go to the bank and block any debits from PayPal there.
I've called "Carrie" twice now and left messages with no call back.
"Stephen in Seoul" is still acting like he wants the second turbo, but I don't know what steps he is going to take to get it.
Getting that second system off my plate would be a relief as well.
Because of the 14 hour time difference, communication with him takes days.
However, I have thee other transactions that are acting to "pay down" the charge-back.
I would feel much better if those weren't in the mix.
I'm not sure at what point they will actually try to debit my attached account, but I'm wondering if I should go to the bank and block any debits from PayPal there.
I've called "Carrie" twice now and left messages with no call back.
"Stephen in Seoul" is still acting like he wants the second turbo, but I don't know what steps he is going to take to get it.
Getting that second system off my plate would be a relief as well.
Because of the 14 hour time difference, communication with him takes days.
05-20-2008, 03:54 PM
#67
Lenin in Disguise
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MM, I had a deal here a couple months back that went sour and I left the account negative for about 1 1/2 months until I got it cleared up with paypal. It wouldn't be a bad idea to stop any debits, at least for the time being, but I don't know and never could find anywhere where they say they'll take money from your account if you owe it to them. If it's in their EULA I've never found it.
Just for what it's worth info.
Just for what it's worth info.
05-20-2008, 05:19 PM
#70
