Rx8 Or 350Z..
12-17-2003, 04:05 PM
#76
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Originally posted by zerobanger
Ok, you are talking about a car from 1992, so the fact that its even being compared to a Z06 is pretty freakin' amazing. But if the Rx-7 was still being produced in america, it would have 10-12 years of more R & D and have much better performance.
To get a true comparison of cost, look at the other cars of the day. It was motor trend that said "The 1993 Rx-7 will outperform every car under 60K and 2/3's of the cars on the other side of that".
If you want to compare, compare to the ZR1. In every catagory with the exception of Acceleration, the Rx-7 brutally raped the ZR-1. For hell of a lot less. Infact, the Rx-7 was priced at about what the pathetic C4 was.
Ok, you are talking about a car from 1992, so the fact that its even being compared to a Z06 is pretty freakin' amazing. But if the Rx-7 was still being produced in america, it would have 10-12 years of more R & D and have much better performance.
To get a true comparison of cost, look at the other cars of the day. It was motor trend that said "The 1993 Rx-7 will outperform every car under 60K and 2/3's of the cars on the other side of that".
If you want to compare, compare to the ZR1. In every catagory with the exception of Acceleration, the Rx-7 brutally raped the ZR-1. For hell of a lot less. Infact, the Rx-7 was priced at about what the pathetic C4 was.
12-17-2003, 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by renotse
That would be
Bob Moore AutoPlex
Oklahoma City OK 73114
PH 405-749-9000
http://www.mooreautoplex.com
or Bob Moore Auto Group
http://www.bobmoore.com
PH 1-800-361-7702
This guy "isn't very bright". Just ask for the guy who was on vacation in Okinawa a month ago
That would be
Bob Moore AutoPlex
Oklahoma City OK 73114
PH 405-749-9000
http://www.mooreautoplex.com
or Bob Moore Auto Group
http://www.bobmoore.com
PH 1-800-361-7702
This guy "isn't very bright". Just ask for the guy who was on vacation in Okinawa a month ago
12-17-2003, 06:24 PM
#78
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Originally posted by revhappy
Oh, the FD was one of my favorite performance cars. Unfortunately, its horrendous reliability issues made it unacceptable. You can bet the bank Mazda would not have released a more powerful FD in subsequent years, unless they did a serious engine renovation (that incidentally is found in the 215-220 HP Renesis that is already having many issues in a naturally-aspirated daily driver car). If you are willing to suffer greatly (or are an extremely capable rotorhead), the FD's great performance is worth it. Otherwise, its just too troublesome for even most hardcore enthusiasts.
Oh, the FD was one of my favorite performance cars. Unfortunately, its horrendous reliability issues made it unacceptable. You can bet the bank Mazda would not have released a more powerful FD in subsequent years, unless they did a serious engine renovation (that incidentally is found in the 215-220 HP Renesis that is already having many issues in a naturally-aspirated daily driver car). If you are willing to suffer greatly (or are an extremely capable rotorhead), the FD's great performance is worth it. Otherwise, its just too troublesome for even most hardcore enthusiasts.
Its really funny, everytime the remarkable performance of the FD is brought up (and while it today it has very good performance, 12 years ago it was UNHEARD OF), every single time its brought up, the only AMMO you guys have is "Its not reliable".
I guess the FD Is a bitch to own.
12-17-2003, 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by revhappy
You can bet the bank Mazda would not have released a more powerful FD in subsequent years, unless they did a serious engine renovation (that incidentally is found in the 215-220 HP Renesis that is already having many issues in a naturally-aspirated daily driver car).
You can bet the bank Mazda would not have released a more powerful FD in subsequent years, unless they did a serious engine renovation (that incidentally is found in the 215-220 HP Renesis that is already having many issues in a naturally-aspirated daily driver car).
please elaborate on these cataclysmic problems the 13BMSP is having already... little CEL's on stuck tert. port motors or faulty temp sensors keeping the engine in cold-start mode for extended periods aren't more than teething problems.
Originally posted by zerobanger
I guess the FD Is a bitch to own.
I guess the FD Is a bitch to own.
Last edited by wakeech; 12-17-2003 at 06:34 PM.
12-17-2003, 07:38 PM
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Z owner here:
I agree with most things that have been said about the Z and the 8. I do have a few comments to add.
The 8 feels faster then it is and the Z feels slower then it is. I was used to driving high reving Honda's and was suprised when I found out that the Z didn't have the high RPM kick and the sound to go along with it. Where you can really tell the Z has a lot of power is when you take off like a mad man from a stop sign. You ram it into second gear and you start going sideways and continue to spin nearly through second gear which tops out at about 60.
As far as race tracks I could care less because I AutoX about twice a year. I will tell you this though. I autox on some parking lots and the 8 is quite a bit faster through the course. These are tracks where you never leave second gear. The other track I did was more high speed 60-100 mph with faster turns and the Z tore up these same RX-8's (same owners/drivers). I also saw many Miata's kicking both our butts on the parking lot course.
Anyone that says the 3.5 is an unreliable motor is an idiot. The motor is near bulletproof. Us Z owners are more worried about our tire feathering problem which has affected a lot of us.
I think they are both nice cars and would be happy with either one. Here is how I would choose:
If you need a car that you need to commute a lot with (45 minutes one way) I would choose the 8. If it's a 3rd car/weekend car I would choose the Z hands down. If you're not used to sports cars the ride in the Z can be a little punishing at first.
I agree with most things that have been said about the Z and the 8. I do have a few comments to add.
The 8 feels faster then it is and the Z feels slower then it is. I was used to driving high reving Honda's and was suprised when I found out that the Z didn't have the high RPM kick and the sound to go along with it. Where you can really tell the Z has a lot of power is when you take off like a mad man from a stop sign. You ram it into second gear and you start going sideways and continue to spin nearly through second gear which tops out at about 60.
As far as race tracks I could care less because I AutoX about twice a year. I will tell you this though. I autox on some parking lots and the 8 is quite a bit faster through the course. These are tracks where you never leave second gear. The other track I did was more high speed 60-100 mph with faster turns and the Z tore up these same RX-8's (same owners/drivers). I also saw many Miata's kicking both our butts on the parking lot course.
Anyone that says the 3.5 is an unreliable motor is an idiot. The motor is near bulletproof. Us Z owners are more worried about our tire feathering problem which has affected a lot of us.
I think they are both nice cars and would be happy with either one. Here is how I would choose:
If you need a car that you need to commute a lot with (45 minutes one way) I would choose the 8. If it's a 3rd car/weekend car I would choose the Z hands down. If you're not used to sports cars the ride in the Z can be a little punishing at first.
12-17-2003, 09:30 PM
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I have had my RX-8 for 3 months, no major problems, just a few little ones. It is a first year car so its going to have a few problems but its under warrenty so they aren't really that big of a deal. The Z cars are good to look at, but I drove one when I was looking for a car and it didnt drive anything like the RX-8. I would pick the 8 over the Z any day.
12-17-2003, 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by zerobanger
Again, im not talking about "reliability", btw..my car is my only car, daily driver has been for the last 2 years.
Its really funny, everytime the remarkable performance of the FD is brought up (and while it today it has very good performance, 12 years ago it was UNHEARD OF), every single time its brought up, the only AMMO you guys have is "Its not reliable".
I guess the FD Is a bitch to own.
Again, im not talking about "reliability", btw..my car is my only car, daily driver has been for the last 2 years.
Its really funny, everytime the remarkable performance of the FD is brought up (and while it today it has very good performance, 12 years ago it was UNHEARD OF), every single time its brought up, the only AMMO you guys have is "Its not reliable".
I guess the FD Is a bitch to own.
Yes, some people are just not masochosts! I mean how many people want to buy a car that's constantly breaking down and will need a new engine at 40,000 - 60,000 miles?
Again, if you are hardcore rotorhead or just a lover (in a stalker sort of way :p ) of the FD, then its worth it. The performance at the time (and still today) was great, but the Z06 and Elise should win the $/performance game today. The problem is that the FD has not been succesful in the US to evolve and remain the best $/performance car. Now, perhaps the Japanese RX7 manufactured up until last year solved some of the reliability problems (and had a bit of a power increase), but the fuel economy and emissions issues likely kept it from being the long-term solution for the rotory, hence the arrival of the Renesis. So far, the Renesis has not shown to ME the overall qualities that will allow it to be placed in a super production car. Now, if Mazda solves some of the problems and puts it in miata-sized car it might be competitive with the Z06 and Elise.
12-17-2003, 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by wakeech
um, but they did, and they fixed the issues which centred around inferior componentry from the factory (notably the rad, vaccum hoses (which were rubber stock... all 72 of them), oil coolers, etc), and ran 12 or 13psi stock in Series 9 trim.
please elaborate on these cataclysmic problems the 13BMSP is having already... little CEL's on stuck tert. port motors or faulty temp sensors keeping the engine in cold-start mode for extended periods aren't more than teething problems.
um, but they did, and they fixed the issues which centred around inferior componentry from the factory (notably the rad, vaccum hoses (which were rubber stock... all 72 of them), oil coolers, etc), and ran 12 or 13psi stock in Series 9 trim.
please elaborate on these cataclysmic problems the 13BMSP is having already... little CEL's on stuck tert. port motors or faulty temp sensors keeping the engine in cold-start mode for extended periods aren't more than teething problems.
In regards to the FD, please see my post before this one.
As for the Renesis, power has been closer to 215-220 HP with fuel economy of 15-18 MPG for a daily driver! There are the excessive soot deposits on the tailpipe, too much cabin heat, poor air conditioning, ~15% of owners have experience flooding (something I thought left the world with my 1974 Briggs and Stratton powered lawn mower) and an unusual number of complete engine failures. This all occurred within 4-5 months and this car had been in development for what seemed forever.
Perhaps, those are teething issues, but I still need much more evidence that will prove that its benefits still exceed its costs.
12-18-2003, 10:14 AM
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12-18-2003, 10:29 AM
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These comparison threads are funny to me. Maybe because I'm getting old... Maybe because I don't really see the '8 and the Z (pronounced 'Zeee' :D) as direct competitors. I looked at both of them before I bought my '8. The Z having 2 seats vs. 4 is what sets the two cars apart. If I didn't have a family, I would have likely bought the Z or a C5. After discussions with the Ole Battle Axe, I decided to get something with four seats for those emergency times when the wife's car was disabled, but we needed to get the family somewhere.
So... the Z has more power. Yep. The Z has more torque. Yep. The Z is faster. Yep. The Z is a nice car. Yep. The '8 is a great car with four seats that are easy to get into. Yep. There's no other four door, four seat car that is as fun to drive, and looks as nice for the price. Yep.
I guess I don't look at 1/4 mile times or HP figures as an indicator of a great car. It's the whole package for what you're looking for. The '8 is definitely one of the best cars in its class. I feel you're wrong if you put the '8 in the same class as the Z. Same goes for the WRX and EVO too. Those two are in the same class together, but not in the same class as the Z or the '8. The WRX and the EVO are two manufacturers base models that they souped up... Much like what you would get if you took a Civic, or a Cavalier and souped it up the same way. You get a cheap car with a lot of power that (IMO) looks funny.
So... the Z has more power. Yep. The Z has more torque. Yep. The Z is faster. Yep. The Z is a nice car. Yep. The '8 is a great car with four seats that are easy to get into. Yep. There's no other four door, four seat car that is as fun to drive, and looks as nice for the price. Yep.
I guess I don't look at 1/4 mile times or HP figures as an indicator of a great car. It's the whole package for what you're looking for. The '8 is definitely one of the best cars in its class. I feel you're wrong if you put the '8 in the same class as the Z. Same goes for the WRX and EVO too. Those two are in the same class together, but not in the same class as the Z or the '8. The WRX and the EVO are two manufacturers base models that they souped up... Much like what you would get if you took a Civic, or a Cavalier and souped it up the same way. You get a cheap car with a lot of power that (IMO) looks funny.
12-18-2003, 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by TownDrunk
These comparison threads are funny to me. Maybe because I'm getting old... Maybe because I don't really see the '8 and the Z (pronounced 'Zeee' :D) as direct competitors. I looked at both of them before I bought my '8. The Z having 2 seats vs. 4 is what sets the two cars apart. If I didn't have a family, I would have likely bought the Z or a C5. After discussions with the Ole Battle Axe, I decided to get something with four seats for those emergency times when the wife's car was disabled, but we needed to get the family somewhere.
So... the Z has more power. Yep. The Z has more torque. Yep. The Z is faster. Yep. The Z is a nice car. Yep. The '8 is a great car with four seats that are easy to get into. Yep. There's no other four door, four seat car that is as fun to drive, and looks as nice for the price. Yep.
I guess I don't look at 1/4 mile times or HP figures as an indicator of a great car. It's the whole package for what you're looking for. The '8 is definitely one of the best cars in its class. I feel you're wrong if you put the '8 in the same class as the Z. Same goes for the WRX and EVO too. Those two are in the same class together, but not in the same class as the Z or the '8. The WRX and the EVO are two manufacturers base models that they souped up... Much like what you would get if you took a Civic, or a Cavalier and souped it up the same way. You get a cheap car with a lot of power that (IMO) looks funny.
These comparison threads are funny to me. Maybe because I'm getting old... Maybe because I don't really see the '8 and the Z (pronounced 'Zeee' :D) as direct competitors. I looked at both of them before I bought my '8. The Z having 2 seats vs. 4 is what sets the two cars apart. If I didn't have a family, I would have likely bought the Z or a C5. After discussions with the Ole Battle Axe, I decided to get something with four seats for those emergency times when the wife's car was disabled, but we needed to get the family somewhere.
So... the Z has more power. Yep. The Z has more torque. Yep. The Z is faster. Yep. The Z is a nice car. Yep. The '8 is a great car with four seats that are easy to get into. Yep. There's no other four door, four seat car that is as fun to drive, and looks as nice for the price. Yep.
I guess I don't look at 1/4 mile times or HP figures as an indicator of a great car. It's the whole package for what you're looking for. The '8 is definitely one of the best cars in its class. I feel you're wrong if you put the '8 in the same class as the Z. Same goes for the WRX and EVO too. Those two are in the same class together, but not in the same class as the Z or the '8. The WRX and the EVO are two manufacturers base models that they souped up... Much like what you would get if you took a Civic, or a Cavalier and souped it up the same way. You get a cheap car with a lot of power that (IMO) looks funny.
12-18-2003, 12:13 PM
#90
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Originally posted by revhappy
If you think, the EVO and WRX/STI are just factory souped up Civics, then you need to go back and look at the history of these cars.
If you think, the EVO and WRX/STI are just factory souped up Civics, then you need to go back and look at the history of these cars.
12-18-2003, 12:22 PM
#91
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Originally posted by TownDrunk
These comparison threads are funny to me. Maybe because I'm getting old... Maybe because I don't really see the '8 and the Z (pronounced 'Zeee' :D) as direct competitors. I looked at both of them before I bought my '8. The Z having 2 seats vs. 4 is what sets the two cars apart. If I didn't have a family, I would have likely bought the Z or a C5. After discussions with the Ole Battle Axe, I decided to get something with four seats for those emergency times when the wife's car was disabled, but we needed to get the family somewhere.
So... the Z has more power. Yep. The Z has more torque. Yep. The Z is faster. Yep. The Z is a nice car. Yep. The '8 is a great car with four seats that are easy to get into. Yep. There's no other four door, four seat car that is as fun to drive, and looks as nice for the price. Yep.
I guess I don't look at 1/4 mile times or HP figures as an indicator of a great car. It's the whole package for what you're looking for. The '8 is definitely one of the best cars in its class. I feel you're wrong if you put the '8 in the same class as the Z. Same goes for the WRX and EVO too. Those two are in the same class together, but not in the same class as the Z or the '8. The WRX and the EVO are two manufacturers base models that they souped up... Much like what you would get if you took a Civic, or a Cavalier and souped it up the same way. You get a cheap car with a lot of power that (IMO) looks funny.
These comparison threads are funny to me. Maybe because I'm getting old... Maybe because I don't really see the '8 and the Z (pronounced 'Zeee' :D) as direct competitors. I looked at both of them before I bought my '8. The Z having 2 seats vs. 4 is what sets the two cars apart. If I didn't have a family, I would have likely bought the Z or a C5. After discussions with the Ole Battle Axe, I decided to get something with four seats for those emergency times when the wife's car was disabled, but we needed to get the family somewhere.
So... the Z has more power. Yep. The Z has more torque. Yep. The Z is faster. Yep. The Z is a nice car. Yep. The '8 is a great car with four seats that are easy to get into. Yep. There's no other four door, four seat car that is as fun to drive, and looks as nice for the price. Yep.
I guess I don't look at 1/4 mile times or HP figures as an indicator of a great car. It's the whole package for what you're looking for. The '8 is definitely one of the best cars in its class. I feel you're wrong if you put the '8 in the same class as the Z. Same goes for the WRX and EVO too. Those two are in the same class together, but not in the same class as the Z or the '8. The WRX and the EVO are two manufacturers base models that they souped up... Much like what you would get if you took a Civic, or a Cavalier and souped it up the same way. You get a cheap car with a lot of power that (IMO) looks funny.
Hahahaha, coming from the guy with the "souped" up pickup truck!
12-18-2003, 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by TownDrunk
I'm aware of the WRC history. I'm referring to the body and interior appointments of the Impreza and Lancer they're derived from. I didn't say they weren't well executed, just that the car chassis' themselves look to be the base model from each companies offerings that are all souped up.
I'm aware of the WRC history. I'm referring to the body and interior appointments of the Impreza and Lancer they're derived from. I didn't say they weren't well executed, just that the car chassis' themselves look to be the base model from each companies offerings that are all souped up.
12-18-2003, 02:05 PM
#94
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Originally posted by revhappy
So do you think almost any car doesn't share parts with other models or in the case of Mazda, makes (i.e. Ford)? I care much more about the EVO having 100% Japanese parts and being completely assembled there! :D
So do you think almost any car doesn't share parts with other models or in the case of Mazda, makes (i.e. Ford)? I care much more about the EVO having 100% Japanese parts and being completely assembled there! :D
12-18-2003, 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by zerobanger
Let me chime in here.
I love my 94 Rx-7. Not only does it look way better than the 350Z, but will out accellerate it, out brake it, out handle it, pull better skid pad #'s, Murder the 350Z on any track, much more fun to drive, 500 lbs lighter, better slalum numbers, Several catagories above the 350Z in the SCCA Handling rankings (actually the TOP catagory, SS). Oh yea and thats just in stock form, a modded one like mine makes even a bigger joke of the 350Z.
Let me chime in here.
I love my 94 Rx-7. Not only does it look way better than the 350Z, but will out accellerate it, out brake it, out handle it, pull better skid pad #'s, Murder the 350Z on any track, much more fun to drive, 500 lbs lighter, better slalum numbers, Several catagories above the 350Z in the SCCA Handling rankings (actually the TOP catagory, SS). Oh yea and thats just in stock form, a modded one like mine makes even a bigger joke of the 350Z.
12-18-2003, 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by TownDrunk
Oh, I'm sure Mazdas, Fords, Jags, Volvos, Lincolns, Mercurys, etc... all share parts... What I'm saying is that my '8 doesn't look like a Protoge on steroids. :D
Oh, I'm sure Mazdas, Fords, Jags, Volvos, Lincolns, Mercurys, etc... all share parts... What I'm saying is that my '8 doesn't look like a Protoge on steroids. :D
So, then you only care about if its perceived as the same as opposed to it actually being the same?
Elara, this was what I was talking about in the other thread! :D
12-18-2003, 03:17 PM
#97
I am a meat popcicle
Originally posted by revhappy
So, then you only care about if its perceived as the same as opposed to it actually being the same?
So, then you only care about if its perceived as the same as opposed to it actually being the same?
12-18-2003, 03:34 PM
#98
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Originally posted by revhappy
for the Renesis, power has been closer to 215-220 HP with fuel economy of 15-18 MPG for a daily driver! There are the excessive soot deposits on the tailpipe
for the Renesis, power has been closer to 215-220 HP with fuel economy of 15-18 MPG for a daily driver! There are the excessive soot deposits on the tailpipe
canzoomer's mod will fix this. i don't usually make absolute statements like this, but i am sure that these specific problems, dealing specifically with the engine, are extremely solveable and caused by conditions extraneous to the design, manufacture, or operation fo this motor.
Originally posted by revhappy
too much cabin heat, poor air conditioning, ~15% of owners have experience flooding (something I thought left the world with my 1974 Briggs and Stratton powered lawn mower) and an unusual number of complete engine failures. This all occurred within 4-5 months and this car had been in development for what seemed forever.
Perhaps, those are teething issues, but I still need much more evidence that will prove that its benefits still exceed its costs.
too much cabin heat, poor air conditioning, ~15% of owners have experience flooding (something I thought left the world with my 1974 Briggs and Stratton powered lawn mower) and an unusual number of complete engine failures. This all occurred within 4-5 months and this car had been in development for what seemed forever.
Perhaps, those are teething issues, but I still need much more evidence that will prove that its benefits still exceed its costs.
the flooding issue: symptom of rookie ownership, overrich ECU tuning, and the coldstart sequence.
complete engine failures?? tell me about one engine that never broke
it happens, and the issues specific to those individual failures will have to be resolved as the engine evolves...i'm not saying it's perfect, and i recognize how disappointingly far from perfect it is, but there's no doubt in my mind that this motor isn't unbelievably brilliant.
12-18-2003, 03:40 PM
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Here is an OPINION from a non rx8/350z driver.
Both great cars but when you get down to specifics...the appeal changes.
If I wanted a pure track car...I'd go with the Z hands down.
If I wanted a daily driver that I could tune. rx8 all the way.
I look at it from this perspective. I get in good seat time in an RX8 considering that fact that my girl has one and I get to drive it alot. In the end, it is how that car makes you feel.
I myself dirve a 2001 Trans Am. Doesnt handle like either of these cars in the stock form...I will admit. But with some work I can get it to where I want it. I drove the 350z and the RX8. I see them all over the road. But I tell you, everytime I start my LS1...and here that rumble...I forget those two cars even exist. When I get into the driver's seat... I am king. And that is how I decide. Numbers are great, price is great, track times are great...but to me none of that matters. In the end, it is your passion for the car that will make the final decision. And it will decide what will become of your car. I tell you this, after I get my Z06...Im stilling keeping my Trans Am...even though the Z06 is superior in every way...I still love the way the T/A makes me feel.
Both great cars but when you get down to specifics...the appeal changes.
If I wanted a pure track car...I'd go with the Z hands down.
If I wanted a daily driver that I could tune. rx8 all the way.
I look at it from this perspective. I get in good seat time in an RX8 considering that fact that my girl has one and I get to drive it alot. In the end, it is how that car makes you feel.
I myself dirve a 2001 Trans Am. Doesnt handle like either of these cars in the stock form...I will admit. But with some work I can get it to where I want it. I drove the 350z and the RX8. I see them all over the road. But I tell you, everytime I start my LS1...and here that rumble...I forget those two cars even exist. When I get into the driver's seat... I am king. And that is how I decide. Numbers are great, price is great, track times are great...but to me none of that matters. In the end, it is your passion for the car that will make the final decision. And it will decide what will become of your car. I tell you this, after I get my Z06...Im stilling keeping my Trans Am...even though the Z06 is superior in every way...I still love the way the T/A makes me feel.
12-18-2003, 04:00 PM
#100
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Silver... yeah, that's what it's about.
Too bad people have to spend more time picking each other's posts apart to get away from this sentiment.
Although I will buy an RX-8 and never buy a T/A or Camaro, I still appreciate and like them.
I recall autocrossing one once... it honestly felt like a really "big" version of the 1st generation RX-7: user-friendly handling (great trail-braking), good power and was just *fun*.
Too bad people have to spend more time picking each other's posts apart to get away from this sentiment.
Although I will buy an RX-8 and never buy a T/A or Camaro, I still appreciate and like them.
I recall autocrossing one once... it honestly felt like a really "big" version of the 1st generation RX-7: user-friendly handling (great trail-braking), good power and was just *fun*.