RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Hardly.

Just people get too locked into a given mentality of what "must be", rather than thinking about "what may be". The history of the car has proven that every single area of the car has room to be more efficient, more powerful, more effective, lighter, and more durable.

Putting blinders saying that "hybrid means really heavy" is ignoring the possibilities.

Imagine if the Prius was 750 lbs lighter though...it might actually turn into a fun car (and probably be QUITE a bit more efficient). But a Prius compared to...say a Corolla(?) in weight, (assuming similar enough chassis for comparison there), the Prius is 200lbs heavier. If Mazda puts the next rotary on the MX-5 platform, which "Returns to 1990 dimensions", plus the added chassis and body weight savings of 15-20% they have already found, you are talking a platform around 1,900-2,000lbs, (minus core engine weight), so adding a hybrid to that, even the Toyota version, is still under 2,500, probably under 2,400. Going series hybrid though, even retaining a fire breathing power train, and having the transmission "shift" to series hybrid for cruising, and you are even lower.


All possible Paul WITH today's technologies.

arghx7

When I was in college I worked on a project in partnership with GM to build a series hybrid. The Volt is the closest to a series hybrid we have on the market. I can tell you right now that it's not as easy as what people on the internet say. If it were, it would already be on the market.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

"Isn't easy" has hardly been a deterrent for manufacturers.

It's not a new technology, like hydrogen or whatever. The technology has been in place for decades. Granted, bigger, but they just need to put their mind to it.

ShinkaEvo

iTrader: (3)

The only thing came into my mind was, Frazer-Nash Namir.
Don't mind if Mazda is heading toward that direction for the RX.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Exactly

If Mazda released a sports car based purely on that concept, even a high cost limited run, it would be turning heads and breaking records.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

why hasnt someone done this?
od

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Cost i expect. But still... doable, and cost comes down through production.

Flashwing

So far the aspect of outfitting a hybrid setup is the most believable news I have heard about the RX-9. We have hashed out the various challenges that Mazda has to overcome which is power, performance and fuel milage. When you see sports cars making 400hp getting 30mpg you can see the very high bar Mazda must jump over to produce a car that will sell. Banking on blind loyaly from rotary owners in light of the difficulties of the RX8 won't do it.

RIWWP makes some excellent points but I'll add that using the Prius as a benchmark for a hybrid really isn't the best idea. Mainly because the Prius is mostly sold here in the US because it's a fad, a feel good car. If anyone was to buy this car from a financial perspective they would have went with something else or simply kept the car they had despite the poor fuel mileage.

Mazda has to use available technology to improve the rotary pure and simple. They don't have the overhead to produce a magic change to the rotary that will solve all their own problems. The most radical thing I've heard is Mazda has been experimenting with versions of the rotary engine that would require NO oil in the combustion chamber. My eyes went rather wide with that suggestion but even so that won't add gobs of power or fuel milage. You can see the road to a miricle invention to make the rotary better is pretty long.

Frankly I'm excited because my hopes of buying another rotary car brand new have been pretty dim. My next purchase is going to either be a DD that might serve double as a backup track car or something that has the power and performance right off. I wouldn't mind making it another rotary car as long as it holds together :-).

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Agreed Flashwing. I mainly keep using the Prius as an example of how they took the idea, then failed to really take it far enough. The Prius is terrible as a hybrid. It is, as you say, just a fad.

People keep seeing "hybrid" and thinking "Prius", so I keep using it to try to break the perception and show what is really wrong with it, and why it's a terrible example.

Maybe I just have trouble getting things across sometimes.

77mjd

...but there's no way in hell the next RX will weigh in at 3400-3500 lbs like the Mustang so if the RX came in at 300hp it should be faster even though it would likely have much less torque.

hp/weight ratio is probably a better way to compare even though a rotary may still likely be a bit handicapped because of a lack of torque. Some sort of hybrid setup could greatly help in that area.

Flashwing

I apologize if you thought I was trying to correct your statement. You were right on the money with your post. Your using the hybrid is a perfect example of the technology gone wrong.

As a car community it's important to understand that the Prius is not a representative of what a true hybrid car can be. Toyota roped in people with the notion that they were saving the planet AND saving money when they were not doing either.

usnidc

for those doubting what hybrid tech can do:

Jaguar to Build C-X75 Hybrid Supercar - First Look
The stunning concept from the Paris Auto Show is on its way to production.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/future-c...ybrid-supercar
I just wonder what the "small-capacity highly boosted internal combustion engine" is going to be...

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Around $1m each huh. But awesome that they are going to production with it, even if limited.

Almost sounds like the engine powering the electric motors are basically jet engine turbines, or a derivative of them. They keep using the term "micro-turbine".

Before anyone points at the price as a reason why we won't see the technology in affordable cars, I would point you have to the power numbers: "780bhp and 1,100ftlb of torque". And the comment that they are making the body out of carbon fiber.

100% positive that if they cut the electric motor count to 1 the price drops quite a bit. And assuming that we just cut the numbers in 1/4th, we would have 195hp and 275tq. Most armchair people wouldn't notice that it "only" has just shy of 200hp, because of the 275tq Armchair enthusiasts don't really use their massive HP on the road, just their massive torque.

You would also be able to further downside the combustion engine powering it quite a bit. Since engine size plays a big role in where it runs most efficiently, the constant-rpm point it would sit at would probably change along with the size, and I could see going crazy small or just really low rpm and larger..... lots of options there.



My only objection is to the name. Say it out loud. "See Ex Seven Five" First thing I thought was CX-7! That's Mazda's name!

zoom44

the jag when it was shown was using 2 micro-turbines from this company http://www.bladonjets.com/ we talked about them quite a bit here

they should still use them instead of the 1.6 liter SC i am reading. then everyone could say "turbines to speed" when they start the car.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

That's quite awesome Zoom....gonna see if they are a publicly traded company. That's a company with it's head in the right gear.

zoom44

stories about the jag going into production say Tata has taken a big stake in Blandon Jets.

i believe they have also been making turbine power units for the military

TALAN7

I own a 2010 Buick lacrosse with the 255 hp engine. Buick also has a 180 hp ecotec as the base engine and 280 hp for the other. For 2011 they added e-assist as a NO CHARGE OPTION. It's a mild hybrid setup that could work wonders for the RX8. In the Lacrosse the setup adds 65 lbs for a small battery and the rest. With some additional weight savings the e-assist lacrosse weighs only 10 lbs more than the non-e-assist Lacrosse. Their main reason was to improve performance while improving mpg. It's a win-win. It knocks .2 off the 0-60 times and GM is very conservative in their application. Mazda could be more aggressive. E-assist ads 110 lbs torque. Imagine a RX with 110 lbs more torque off the line. This is the best way for Mazda to go.

pking1122

I guess my point is to say, it shouldn't even be close. Despite the bloat of the V6 Mustang, the 370Z isn't that much faster in a straight line. A better assessment is that the next RX should be much faster than the 370Z that would be 4 years older if and when its finally released. It should be significantly lighter, and significantly more powerful considering it will be the lead off affordable sports car of the next generation. I'm not looking for the car to be close in performance to any car within $15k of its MSRP.

zoom44

thats not even reality

pking1122

This concept is absolutely insane.

pking1122

You're most likely right, but that's how the car would become an instant classic. That's how people buy into Mazda and experience the joy of driving the car itself. That, of course, is the soul of Mazda. That's why we truly enjoy our 8s, but its something most can't appreciate until they try it. People are usually sold on paper, and it simply must be powerful to sell here in the US, and be profitable.

zoom44

ive being using one of the back ground track in my mind, going back over and reviewing various info I have in my brain from the last few years of real info, concepts, rumour and speculation.

this morning what popped out was this idea

Kabura isnt dead



Think about it:

A Kabura proportioned Kodo(shinari) designed, 2 +2 seating(one rear or two rear doors-sliding liek kabura?) 16x powered with some electrically assisted turbo or hybrid drive train ( electric motors driving rear wheels ala the suspension patent mentioned earlier) HATCHBACK

I'd buy that. with the glass roof ( I know the racers will want a metal roof but I like the extra light for the kids)


We'd need a new concept name. Kabura was " First Arrow Fired into Battle" What the word for an Arrow that has struck it target? or maybe use Sogeki

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

This showed up today.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11105253...-hybrid-system

I actually think the Shinari will be used for the next Mazda 6.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It will Al.

It's just styling concept anyway (albiet, a lovingly stunning concept without a single change)

I'd be shocked if we didn't see the same overall appearance appearing across their entire line. Slimmed and trimmed for the 9, more as-is for the 6, as-is but shorter for the 2, even shorter for the 2, etc...

I can picture the variants in my head, but I'm not an artist to get them to screen



Awesome to see more indication that it will share a platform with the MX-5!

MattMPS

In an interview at Geneva Peter Birtwhistle have said clearly "no". the car (his words) is designed around a RWD platform and too aggressive for a midsize sedan, but Shinari show the style elements for many future Mazda.

My opinion is that Shinari don't show any particular car, just a design direction, Minagi instead show a future car (cx-5)

No Mazda6 or rotary will be based around a Shinari....IMHO