Skythe

Do some research and connect the dots. It's more than revelant

bascho

That's more agreeable to me.

bascho

I would agree with Eric on this point.....most of the thread topics are getting boring and redundant these days.......this is an issue that is extremely important and needs discussion. Many people have had great input into this conversation without being too argumentative.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

oh please tell me how 9/11 in any way relates to the recent price spike related to the completely trumped up story of nuclear war with Iran??? This ought to be halarious...

saturn

Meh, I suppose. But most people are just spitting out random information.

And I kinda like it when everyone gets all mad at each other. The funniest posts come out when people are angry by not only those involved, but the bystanders who make insightful and hilarious comments.

Then again, I'll just give it time -- this will degrade into a RX-8 vs. Evo/STi debate eventually.

bascho

refining capacity is the bottleneck right now.....not the oil supply. Yes, oil supply is a long-term problem......but the price of gas includes more than the cost of a barrel of oil. Check out the various gas price websites for a breakdown of the cost of a gallon of gas. Right now the supply of refined gasoline is driving up the actual price at the pump (yearly average price).....not the supply of crude oil. The price flux of a barrel of crude oil only causes short-term price gouging at the pump.

sti_eric

Wrong. There is far more money being invested by the Warren Buffets of the world than by people who would need to take money out of their investments to pay for necessities.

Wrong again. If gas gets to the point of pain, consumers WILL adapt and change their habits.

Ah, yes, the typical liberal credo...people are too stupid to know what is good for them, so I, the benevolent, all-knowing, all-powerful liberal elite will tell them what is good for them. No thanks. If I want to buy a Viper that gets 10 mpg, why shouldn't I be allowed to? If CAFE standards were raised to 35mpg, we would see just about all sports cars wiped off the face of the planet. I don't want the government telling me what is best for myself.

At the point we are at now, you are correct. But that is because we have been spoiled with very low gas prices for a long time. We have not yet reached the point of pain, so all we have are a lot of complainers and no one actually changing their habits. When we reach the point of pain, people will begin to change their habits.

Incorrect, again. Mercedes Benz only has one diesel car here, the E320 CDI. In the UK, they have 35. The E320 CDI gets 37 mpg. However, you cannot buy one in California, New York, Massachusetts, Maine, or Vermont because of their overly strict environmental regulations. As it is, it barely meets federal EPA standards. Most European diesels cannot be imported here because they do not meet the overly-strict EPA guidelines.

Skythe

Man, Yo momma was wearin my tin foil hat last night!

bascho

But the habits that will change first will be the one's that have the greatest impact on the economy. The US has become a service economy and not an industrial one like we used to be. Think about every business and every job that exists solely on Americans having disposable income to spend. I recently started to think about how I would have to change my life if gas is $4 per gallon.....$5 per gallon. You know what was cut before gas for my car........cable tv, cellular phone, hi-speed internet connection, date nights with my wife, vacations with my family, etc. I work 25 miles from my home......I need to work to support my family.....I don't have a choice in limiting my fuel consumption right now. I would sell the RX8 but I would lose my *** on the sale since no one else wants 18mpg sports cars when gas is $4 per gallon.

So you think that everyone should govern themselves because they know best? No one says the Dodge can't build the Viper when CAFE requirements are 35mpg......they just have to charge more for them to cover the fines they will get from the gov't. Porsche gets fined every year for not meeting CAFE requirements......did it stop them from building the cars they wanted to? DCX was fined in 2005 for not meeting the requirements......you still get a Hemi in half of their products. The point is, if you want to contribute to the problem.....then you should have to pay to play.....and that money should go to support research into alternate fuels.

I am not sure how I am incorrect. Just because Mercedes has other diesel powertrains does not mean they could sell them here in the US. Most of the people in the US that can afford Mercedes Benz autos are older and they lived through the first round of European diesel cars.......THEY WILL NOT BUY THEM! That is the reason they are not sold here. By the way, just because 5 states restrict most European diesel offerings based on emissions.....that does not prevent them from coming to the US (which is 50 states the last time I checked).

sti_eric

YOU may have no choice in limiting your fuel consumption, but I suspect that you are in the minority. In fact, I suspect that your statement is not true at all. You can't carpool? You can't move closer to work and bike it? A logical person would say, "Hmmm...gas is up to $6 a gallon, I should probably look into ways to cut my consumption" rather than, "Hmmm...gas is up to $6 a gallon, I better cut my internet connection, my cell phone, and vacations". I already know of people who are carpooling and I know people who have bought more gas efficient vehicles.

CAFE fines are based on how far from the standard you are. If the standard goes up to 35 mpg, most auto companies would be unable to pay the hefty fines levied on them. Again, it should be up to the market to dictate demand, not the government. You also fail to take into account the cost of getting to 35mpg. I suspect that that cost is much worse than costs from higher gas prices.

First, the Mercedes was just my example. VW, Audi, BMW, Peugeot, and Citroen all also make diesels. There could be plenty of affordable diesels in the US.

Second, the 5 states mentioned are the ones that already have the ultra-strict emissions standards in place (note that they are all blue states). In 2007, all cars must meet the ultra strict Tier 2 exhaust emissions standards. No European diesels will be able to meet these standards. We already have plenty of very nice cars that are ~40 mpg, but our government, controlled by environmentalist wackos, won't let us have diesels.

I personally would ****** up a BMW 120d in an instant. 43 mpg, 250 ft/lb torque. Or, you could get the 118d, which gets over 50mpg. Thanks environmentalists!

bascho

I am a home owner with a family.....if that makes me in the minority then so be it. If I lived in an apartment then I would move closer to my office and bike it.....but that is not an option. Car pooling is also not an option since I have to drop-off and pick-up my kids at a moments notice.....which means I need to have my own transportation to and from work. I intend to purchase a more fuel efficient auto once the lease is up on this stupid RX8......like I said, I would sell it if I wasn't going to lose my *** on the deal.



The market already dictates demand......that is how we got into this mess in the first place. Allowing the current trend to run it's course is bound to throw us into a serious recession. Do you really think that there is a magical gas price that will cause everyone to stop buying sports cars, trucks and SUV's and get subcompacts instead?

It is not about affordable......it's about Americans wanting diesel engines. Why don't you write a letter to DCX and ask them why they don't offer more diesel powertrains in the US market. I bet their answer has more to do with demand in the US for diesels and less to do with emissions.


WOW!! You must think global warming does not really exist. Maybe you should pick-up a news paper once in a while and check out the extreme climate changes happening all over the world thanks to added carbon in the atmosphere from our burning of fossil fuels and extreme deforestation. There is nothing wrong with environmental responsibility......I am frustrated to here you bash environmental conservation legislation. If anything we need more not less.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

The proof in the pudding that sti eric, himself, is a whacko.

To believe that the Bush Administration is comprised of environmental 'whackos' is whacked.

Thanks for playing eric! Buh-Bye!

saturn

We didn't listen..we didn't listen!!

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

hmm... http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/margins/index.html shows currently $1.59 worth of crude oil is in a gallon of gas making it the largest cost of a gallon of gas

bascho

I did not say that the cost of crude oil is not a large portion of the cost of gas.....just that their are other factors. Gas costs $2.89 which means $1.30 (2.89 - 1.59 = 1.30) of that cost has nothing to do with crude oil price.

sti_eric

I don't see where I said that the Bush adminstration is comprised of environmentalist wackos. Our government is not limited to the Bush administration. At the federal level, besides Congress, there is the EPA, etc, which IS controlled by environmentalist wackos. State and local governments are also affected.

Is it that you "can't" or that you don't want to?

It's not "magic", it's simple economics. You have even said it yourself in this thread. Just look at Europe. They have very high gas prices in Europe (thanks to socialism: 75% of the cost of gas is taxes). As a result, consumers there buy diesels. Over 50% of the cars sold in Europe (75% in Austria) are diesels. Why are you trying to deny the facts? As gas prices go up, it will force consumers to change their habits.

Unfortunately, most environmentalism is junk science and not supported by factual data. 30 years ago, it was all the rage in the environmentalist community to predict that we had an upcoming ice age. Now, it's that global warming is going to destroy the planet.

I wouldn't "bash" environmental legislation if it made sense. The Tier 2 exhaust emissions legislation makes no sense and is absolute garbage. The standards are way too strict. I'm all for protecting the enviroment, at a reasonable cost. Environmentalist wackos that get this kind of legislation passed are idiots who "protect" the environment at all costs. If you are an enviromentalist, then you have absolutely no right to be complaining about high gas prices. We could have highly efficient diesel cars here if it wasn't for overly-strict environmental laws.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

Yeahhh...you do realize that the head of EPA is a presidentially appointed position, right?

sti_eric

You do realize that the EPA is a giant organization consisting of 18,000 employees who were not hired by the Bush Administration, right?

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

Whatever. You said the EPA is "controlled by environmental wackos," when it's controlled by a Bush-appointee.

Veni, Vidi, Vici.

sti_eric

It is LED by a Bush appointee, but it is CONTROLLED by environmentalist wackos, in much the same way you claim that oil company execs control the government.

saturn

Nos non audimus.

rx8wannahave

This has been an interesting thread, but once again some ugly people start tossing insults (as the children they are) and this just proves WHY we still can't have conversations like this.

It's sad, because I agree that the website has been pretty sucky for a while now (no new NEWS about the RX8, not much aftermarket stuff, and no fun conversations) but as long as childish people continue to insult each other the mod's or admin here wont change anything.

People, if you can't disagree without insulting someone or getting ugly...then don't even get into the conversation. If you can't be an adult...then stay out of topics like this.

I for one don't expect perfection in this place so I don't stress too much over what the GOBment is and aint doing. Garbage in...garbage out, and since there is no perfect govenment, people, or economic system then we all have to frankly DEAL with the cards we are delt. No...I'm not saying we shouldn't fight to make things better, but we shouldn't get to the point where all that is left is insulting the guy/gal next to us because they don't agree with us.

Relax people and grow up (those that are insulting others) no matter if you have the truth you will always find someone to tell you how wrong you are.

Insults only prove the weakness of your point.

Detrich

paid $3.15 for 91 yesterday. cost $42 to fill up.

bascho

Actually, I would like to move......but the housing market here in MI is really scary right now. My neighbor has been trying to sell for 2 years now and they have a really nice home......in a nice area. It's the uncertainty in the auto industry driving the poor housing market for the moment. As soon as things get better, I plan to move.


I personally would like to see more diesel offerings here in the US.....but not at the sake of increased emissions. Just because Europe is more lax on the subject does not make it ok. I think if Americans truely want diesels (and with sustained high gas price we just might), then auto companies will figure out how to offer the diesel powertrains within strict emission legislation set in the US.

I don't agree with you that 'most environmentalism' is junk science. I would agree that 'some' environmentalism is not realistic......but 'most' is a little harsh. Also, watch National Geographic once in while......global warming triggers an 'ice age'. This is a fact and it has happened multiple times throughout the history of the earth.

I can understand your point of view regarding environmental legislation as a whole.....but why has Tier II tail pipe emission legislation got you this emotional? Has it stopped Ford from bringing a 475hp Mustang to the world? Has is stopped GM from bringing a 505hp Vette to the world? Meeting PZEV requirements is not that hard for the auto companies to do when they want to or have to through legislation.

rx8wannahave

^I think I'm going to pour gas every week now so I can "fake" the feeling of spending less...lol. I didn't really like $30...let alone $40.