Paid $2.99 for a gallon of premium yesterday
04-18-2006, 09:16 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by bascho
What's really sick is that even though the oil companies made billions last year in PROFITS....they blame the lack of new refining capacity on the US government not subsidizing the investment in new refineries. WTF?? Where is the US gov't when the country actually needs them? Make these oil companies invest their easily earned billions on new refineries.....they don't need to be subsidized by tax dollars. Where's the regulation?
I'm personally never considered myself a right wing liberal, andhave complained about them much, but over the last 5-10 years... America is just getting out of control. It's time for serious regulation... regulation of life's necessities... energy (of all types), health care (not national system... just government regulated prices), and insurance to say the least. These companies are bending America over making billions in profits off of things that are considered necessities of life in this age. there is more market supply/demand... this is just stuff that you must have in order to work and live. IN my book that makes it qualify for government regulation... They don't need to be a charity... making a "reasonable" profit is fine, but no company that deals in these life necessities should be making record profits in the billions. Energy, health care, insurance...
04-18-2006, 09:40 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by moRotorMotor
You guys south of the Canadian border should be ashamed of yourselves! $3.00/gallon is a joke. I'm already paying for $4.25/gallon for regular. 
I have nightmares now about what the price might be at the peak of summer!
I have nightmares now about what the price might be at the peak of summer!$4.66/gallon)... that's $74.09 to fill up your RX-8 in Japan (15.9 gallons).
Now THAT'S something to cry about...
1 gallon = 3.785 liters
1 USD = 116.95 JPY
04-18-2006, 09:51 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by Cool-Blue-Dad
..... I'll agree you don't really understand how it all works.
Not to pick on you, but just to answer your point - Oil companies are in business to make profit. Without profit there is no reason for them to survey, drill, pump, transport, refine and distribute. Would you keep going to work if your employer suddenly decided you shouldn't have profit (wage)? How about if they decide salary inflation has "gone unchecked for long enough" and levy a big paycut?
I'm just glad none of you here are so bad at math as some of the locals around here. Here folks like to gripe about record oil profits.
Well, let's see, profits tend to be a percentage mark-up on cost and thus a percentage of revenue. If the cost of crude oil goes up *and* the *amount* of oil bought/sold goes us that's two factors driving up profit at the same time. That's ignoring the industry consolidation (it wasn't the Exxon/Mobil Valdeez that ran aground off the coast of Alaska, it was just Exxon that short time ago). You take collective profit from several companies and combine it and the resulting single company immediately and automatically had more profit, not because they are more bad, but because they have greater market share.
Test time - If the world buys more gas and the market price for crude oil is rising do those market conditions drive prices and profit up or down?
*sigh* okay, okay, I'll try to rope in my soap-boxing, but I do recommend certain readings:
http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?pa...s_iv_ctrl=1021
Aseras is right - if it's not worth that price, don't pay it. Oh, it *is* worth that price. Okay, no further questions.
Not to pick on you, but just to answer your point - Oil companies are in business to make profit. Without profit there is no reason for them to survey, drill, pump, transport, refine and distribute. Would you keep going to work if your employer suddenly decided you shouldn't have profit (wage)? How about if they decide salary inflation has "gone unchecked for long enough" and levy a big paycut?
I'm just glad none of you here are so bad at math as some of the locals around here. Here folks like to gripe about record oil profits.
Well, let's see, profits tend to be a percentage mark-up on cost and thus a percentage of revenue. If the cost of crude oil goes up *and* the *amount* of oil bought/sold goes us that's two factors driving up profit at the same time. That's ignoring the industry consolidation (it wasn't the Exxon/Mobil Valdeez that ran aground off the coast of Alaska, it was just Exxon that short time ago). You take collective profit from several companies and combine it and the resulting single company immediately and automatically had more profit, not because they are more bad, but because they have greater market share.
Test time - If the world buys more gas and the market price for crude oil is rising do those market conditions drive prices and profit up or down?
*sigh* okay, okay, I'll try to rope in my soap-boxing, but I do recommend certain readings:
http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?pa...s_iv_ctrl=1021
Aseras is right - if it's not worth that price, don't pay it. Oh, it *is* worth that price. Okay, no further questions.
And that, sir, is a cop out.
1) If their CEO is making multi-millions of dollars in salary alone and then gets a cash and options/stock bonus of again multi-millions, the company can sure as hell afford to cut the price of their product. (qualify this with said CEO is not the founder/owner of said company) no I don't care if other "big execs" are getting paid like that too... they ALL should have their salaries cut unless they are owner/founder of the company.
2) Mr. CEO ain't out there drill and processing the oil. He's busy lobbying... market analysts, politicians, other execs... he's a salesman... his product is the company. REAL management is done levels below him.
3) So you seem to believe in this current American business bullshit philosophy of greed. "If they'll pay it, then charge it." "PROFITS, PROFITS, PROFITS!" I hope you don't also complain about the lack of ethics in business and by American companies... A lot of good any of that will do you when people have little to no disposable income and the only people that will be able to afford your product are your golf buddies.
4) Why bother regulate anything at all? Ultilities, phone, cable... whatever. Hey... let's charge as much as people can or are willing to pay. It's only fair... it's the "American way".
04-18-2006, 09:55 PM
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Most of America's top politicians were put into office by corporations in the form of campaign contributions.
Here's my opinion as to why the price of gasoline is so high.
Why pay for building refineries when you can just keep the same ones and charge more for the same supply of gasoline? Oil companies are keeping the demand up on a more limited supply.
If the oil companies build more refineries they will be cutting their profits. They will increase the supply of oil which will drive prices down because the demand will remain the same.
The biggest and most profitable publicy owned corporation is Exxon Mobile. Their # 1 priority is making money for their stock holders.
They don't care about how their customers feel. They know that we will pay the price because we are dependent on their product. We simply cannot live without it.
Simple economics --> Supply & Demand
P.S- I'm NOT defending the oil companies.
Here's my opinion as to why the price of gasoline is so high.
Why pay for building refineries when you can just keep the same ones and charge more for the same supply of gasoline? Oil companies are keeping the demand up on a more limited supply.
If the oil companies build more refineries they will be cutting their profits. They will increase the supply of oil which will drive prices down because the demand will remain the same.
The biggest and most profitable publicy owned corporation is Exxon Mobile. Their # 1 priority is making money for their stock holders.
They don't care about how their customers feel. They know that we will pay the price because we are dependent on their product. We simply cannot live without it.
Simple economics --> Supply & Demand
P.S- I'm NOT defending the oil companies.
Last edited by born2drive; 04-18-2006 at 09:59 PM.
04-18-2006, 09:55 PM
#55
On top of record profits, the U.S. government also just gave away pure cream to big oil:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/bu...rssnyt&emc=rss
U.S. Has Royalty Plan to Give Windfall to Oil Companies
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Published: February 14, 2006
WASHINGTON, Feb. 13 — The federal government is on the verge of one of the biggest giveaways of oil and gas in American history, worth an estimated $7 billion over five years.
New projections, buried in the Interior Department's just-published budget plan, anticipate that the government will let companies pump about $65 billion worth of oil and natural gas from federal territory over the next five years without paying any royalties to the government...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/bu...rssnyt&emc=rss
U.S. Has Royalty Plan to Give Windfall to Oil Companies
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Published: February 14, 2006
WASHINGTON, Feb. 13 — The federal government is on the verge of one of the biggest giveaways of oil and gas in American history, worth an estimated $7 billion over five years.
New projections, buried in the Interior Department's just-published budget plan, anticipate that the government will let companies pump about $65 billion worth of oil and natural gas from federal territory over the next five years without paying any royalties to the government...
04-18-2006, 10:04 PM
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You and your buddies can thank the Iowa corn lobby and the Democrats in congress for the performance of today's altered gasoline blends. They worked the system so that ethanol and methanol replaced MTBE in gasoline, and they do not necessarily behave the same in today's high performance engines. The octane rating, by law, however, must comply with what is stated on the pump. The issues around ethanol and methanol are more about potential long-term effects on engines (rubber gaskets and other components), although many folks do claim performance woes as well.
The real killer is that every gallon of ethanol is subsidized by the taxpayer--you and me--because those blendstocks in gasoline are more than twice as expensive to produce as oil-derived alkylate or MTBE (That's methyl tert-butyl ether for you people that have taken organic chemistry ). Fertilizing corn, growing it, harvesting it, fermenting it, and making it into final product ethanol, then shipping it, is horrifically expensive, and not a viable business without Washington (you and me) footing the bill.
Sorry for the long answer--it's just a shame what a few special interest Democrats can do. I'm just kind of passionate about this issue because it is directly related to people bitching about gasoline prices. It's all intertwined.
I'm sorry that this has turned into a political thread and I know that political threads are forbidden, just felt unrepresented.
The real killer is that every gallon of ethanol is subsidized by the taxpayer--you and me--because those blendstocks in gasoline are more than twice as expensive to produce as oil-derived alkylate or MTBE (That's methyl tert-butyl ether for you people that have taken organic chemistry ). Fertilizing corn, growing it, harvesting it, fermenting it, and making it into final product ethanol, then shipping it, is horrifically expensive, and not a viable business without Washington (you and me) footing the bill.
Sorry for the long answer--it's just a shame what a few special interest Democrats can do. I'm just kind of passionate about this issue because it is directly related to people bitching about gasoline prices. It's all intertwined.
I'm sorry that this has turned into a political thread and I know that political threads are forbidden, just felt unrepresented.
04-18-2006, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sti_eric
See, here's the problem I have with this kind of a statement (and it's the kind of statement I see everywhere - most notably in 'Letters to the Editor") - you say that gas prices "need to be stabilized" somehow, yet you have no idea how or what this would entail. Obviously you think the government needs to step in and do something - but since when has the government ever made a situation better? Price controls will cause shortages. Why not let the market run its course?
The other part that I have a problem with is that 'someone else' needs to do the job. I contend that it is YOU ('you' as in everybody, not you specifically) that needs to do something. If you want gas prices to go down, get rid of your 15 mpg RX-8 and get a 40 mpg Corolla. But, you want your cake and eat it, too. You want your gas guzzling RX-8 or SUV but you don't want to have to pay the price to keep the car going. It is much easy to demand other people adapt and make sacrifices than it is for you to make sacrifices.
Isn't it much easier to point the finger at the person making the comment/raising the question, than to admit there's a problem in the system and look at how it can be fixed.
04-18-2006, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by born2drive
Most of America's top politicians were put into office by corporations in the form of campaign contributions.
Here's my opinion as to why the price of gasoline is so high.
Why pay for building refineries when you can just keep the same ones and charge more for the same supply of gasoline? Oil companies are keeping the demand up on a more limited supply.
If the oil companies build more refineries they will be cutting their profits. They will increase the supply of oil which will drive prices down because the demand will remain the same.
The biggest and most profitable publicy owned corporation is Exxon Mobile. Their # 1 priority is making money for their stock holders.
They don't care about how their customers feel. They know that we will pay the price because we are dependent on their product. We simply cannot live without it.
Simple economics --> Supply & Demand
P.S- I'm NOT defending the oil companies.
Here's my opinion as to why the price of gasoline is so high.
Why pay for building refineries when you can just keep the same ones and charge more for the same supply of gasoline? Oil companies are keeping the demand up on a more limited supply.
If the oil companies build more refineries they will be cutting their profits. They will increase the supply of oil which will drive prices down because the demand will remain the same.
The biggest and most profitable publicy owned corporation is Exxon Mobile. Their # 1 priority is making money for their stock holders.
They don't care about how their customers feel. They know that we will pay the price because we are dependent on their product. We simply cannot live without it.
Simple economics --> Supply & Demand
P.S- I'm NOT defending the oil companies.
When is it enough? A company can't simply be profitable... it has to be as profitable as possible? Cut that margin razor thin... at the expense of employee benefits/salaries or even jobs and raising prices beyond a "reasonable" cost? Ethics? What's that? MONEY! PROFIT! When is it enough America?
04-18-2006, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Japan8
Isn't it much easier to point the finger at the person making the comment/raising the question, than to admit there's a problem in the system and look at how it can be fixed.
04-18-2006, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael
But when the finger is pointed in the right direction, the oil companies are blamed out of reflex.
04-18-2006, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Japan8
But when the shoe fits...
04-18-2006, 10:19 PM
#62
Originally Posted by Michael
You and your buddies can thank the Iowa corn lobby and the Democrats in congress for the performance of today's altered gasoline blends. They worked the system so that ethanol and methanol replaced MTBE in gasoline, and they do not necessarily behave the same in today's high performance engines. The octane rating, by law, however, must comply with what is stated on the pump. The issues around ethanol and methanol are more about potential long-term effects on engines (rubber gaskets and other components), although many folks do claim performance woes as well.
The real killer is that every gallon of ethanol is subsidized by the taxpayer--you and me--because those blendstocks in gasoline are more than twice as expensive to produce as oil-derived alkylate or MTBE (That's methyl tert-butyl ether for you people that have taken organic chemistry ). Fertilizing corn, growing it, harvesting it, fermenting it, and making it into final product ethanol, then shipping it, is horrifically expensive, and not a viable business without Washington (you and me) footing the bill.
Sorry for the long answer--it's just a shame what a few special interest Democrats can do. I'm just kind of passionate about this issue because it is directly related to people bitching about gasoline prices. It's all intertwined.
I'm sorry that this has turned into a political thread and I know that political threads are forbidden, just felt unrepresented.
The real killer is that every gallon of ethanol is subsidized by the taxpayer--you and me--because those blendstocks in gasoline are more than twice as expensive to produce as oil-derived alkylate or MTBE (That's methyl tert-butyl ether for you people that have taken organic chemistry ). Fertilizing corn, growing it, harvesting it, fermenting it, and making it into final product ethanol, then shipping it, is horrifically expensive, and not a viable business without Washington (you and me) footing the bill.
Sorry for the long answer--it's just a shame what a few special interest Democrats can do. I'm just kind of passionate about this issue because it is directly related to people bitching about gasoline prices. It's all intertwined.
I'm sorry that this has turned into a political thread and I know that political threads are forbidden, just felt unrepresented.
Yes, because we all know that Republicans investigate the hell out of big oil collusion/price-fixing, don't give anything away to big oil, and that no Republicans in the corn belt had anything to do with the institution of ethanol mandated fuel blends.
Please.
04-18-2006, 10:22 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by Steiner
$3.17 in the Oakland, CA area
This is really starting to suck. My top last year was $3.69 around Oct. At this rate we'll be at $4 at some point in the summer.
04-18-2006, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RotoRocket
Yes, because we all know that Republicans investigate the hell out of big oil collusion/price-fixing, don't give anything away to big oil, and that no Republicans in the corn belt had anything to do with the institution of ethanol mandated fuel blends.
Please.
Please.
http://www.10nbc.com/news.asp?templa...story_id=18441
Would you consider this an indication of apathy towards oil prices, or an action that shows understanding of the big picture?
04-18-2006, 10:35 PM
#65
Originally Posted by Michael
Show me.
http://www.10nbc.com/news.asp?templa...story_id=18441
Would you consider this an indication of apathy towards oil prices, or an action that shows understanding of the big picture?
http://www.10nbc.com/news.asp?templa...story_id=18441
Would you consider this an indication of apathy towards oil prices, or an action that shows understanding of the big picture?
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?Ind=E01
Oil & Gas:
Long-Term Contribution Trends
04-18-2006, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael
Please read the educated posts throughout this thread for all of the refutation you need (including my own). Many many many coherent, well founded thoughts have been expressed by other people in this thread, so reposting these thoughts would be a waste of my breath.
Read them. And so what? Well-founded on what? Your opinion?
04-18-2006, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RotoRocket
Money talks, and bullshit walks:
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?Ind=E01
Oil & Gas:
Long-Term Contribution Trends
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?Ind=E01
Oil & Gas:
Long-Term Contribution Trends
This is my last post- work comes before play.
04-18-2006, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Japan8
There is likely more to the situation that just that (I haven't had time to look more into it), but overal... that is what I understand is going on here... and in all industries to some degree.
When is it enough? A company can't simply be profitable... it has to be as profitable as possible? Cut that margin razor thin... at the expense of employee benefits/salaries or even jobs and raising prices beyond a "reasonable" cost? Ethics? What's that? MONEY! PROFIT! When is it enough America?
When is it enough? A company can't simply be profitable... it has to be as profitable as possible? Cut that margin razor thin... at the expense of employee benefits/salaries or even jobs and raising prices beyond a "reasonable" cost? Ethics? What's that? MONEY! PROFIT! When is it enough America?
Once a single entity becomes so profitable and has more money than they can possibly spend, they begin to seek other ways to satisfy their hunger. In this case POWER is what the oil corporations are seeking.
They are so deep in America's political scene that they are controlling America's economic legislation. They have to be or else the American gov't would break up their virtual monopoly over the oil refining industry.
It's a "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" kind of deal or just simply put, political corruption. Of course, since when has the American gov't NOT been corrupt in one aspect or another?
I'd love to get much more in depth with this subject, but I'm just too tired.
Last edited by born2drive; 04-18-2006 at 10:46 PM.
04-18-2006, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Japan8
Right.
Read them. And so what? Well-founded on what? Your opinion?
Read them. And so what? Well-founded on what? Your opinion?
Originally Posted by Michael
You and your buddies can thank the Iowa corn lobby and the Democrats in congress for the performance of today's altered gasoline blends. They worked the system so that ethanol and methanol replaced MTBE in gasoline, and they do not necessarily behave the same in today's high performance engines. The octane rating, by law, however, must comply with what is stated on the pump. The issues around ethanol and methanol are more about potential long-term effects on engines (rubber gaskets and other components), although many folks do claim performance woes as well.
The real killer is that every gallon of ethanol is subsidized by the taxpayer--you and me--because those blendstocks in gasoline are more than twice as expensive to produce as oil-derived alkylate or MTBE (That's methyl tert-butyl ether for you people that have taken organic chemistry ). Fertilizing corn, growing it, harvesting it, fermenting it, and making it into final product ethanol, then shipping it, is horrifically expensive, and not a viable business without Washington (you and me) footing the bill.
Sorry for the long answer--it's just a shame what a few special interest Democrats can do. I'm just kind of passionate about this issue because it is directly related to people bitching about gasoline prices. It's all intertwined.
I'm sorry that this has turned into a political thread and I know that political threads are forbidden, just felt unrepresented.
The real killer is that every gallon of ethanol is subsidized by the taxpayer--you and me--because those blendstocks in gasoline are more than twice as expensive to produce as oil-derived alkylate or MTBE (That's methyl tert-butyl ether for you people that have taken organic chemistry ). Fertilizing corn, growing it, harvesting it, fermenting it, and making it into final product ethanol, then shipping it, is horrifically expensive, and not a viable business without Washington (you and me) footing the bill.
Sorry for the long answer--it's just a shame what a few special interest Democrats can do. I'm just kind of passionate about this issue because it is directly related to people bitching about gasoline prices. It's all intertwined.
I'm sorry that this has turned into a political thread and I know that political threads are forbidden, just felt unrepresented.
04-18-2006, 11:08 PM
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I won't argue the political stuff, but I will give a little insight from business inside the oil circle.
The oil drilling companies are not losing business that I know of. I know of a small company (with a huge business) of supplying chemicals for drilling to some of the largest oil companies in the world. The company that I know about depends on the productivity of the oil industry. In other words, the need for more chemicals to be used in more and more drilling sites. That company doubled its profits in 2004 and again doubled (if not more) in 2005 due to the overwhelming request for more and more chemicals, not necessarily due to the rising cost of oil. If that is the oil industry suffering...I would hate to see what it looks like when we REALLY run out of oil. Believe it or not, the price of gas also takes a toll on the oil industry too. The company that I know had to raise the prices of all the chemicals significantly due to the rising cost of fuel to transport the chemicals. The large oil companies had to compensate for that in millions of dollars difference for the price of the chemicals that they need to be able to drill effectively. Now, I am in no way shape or form sticking up for the oil companies. I don't agree with how they do business, but they do...and make billions.
As far as putting a price control on oil...why would congress do that? The biggest suppliers of campaign funds are the oil companies. **** them off and they just take their money elsewhere and bring in someone new who will meet their demands.
It is sad that it hits the "little guy's" pocket, but as a nation, we could take control. We are a nation VERY dependent on our automobiles. Nobody said that we have to be. Ride a bike to work, take a bus, take a train, buy a more economical car for weekday driving.
Personally I love my 8 and want to keep it forever, but I can buy a really nice bicycle for what 6 months worth of gas costs me in the 8 going back and forth to work and I only work a few miles from my job.
We just need to be smart as a nation. We can talk about it all day long, but until WE actually do something about it...nothing will change.
The oil drilling companies are not losing business that I know of. I know of a small company (with a huge business) of supplying chemicals for drilling to some of the largest oil companies in the world. The company that I know about depends on the productivity of the oil industry. In other words, the need for more chemicals to be used in more and more drilling sites. That company doubled its profits in 2004 and again doubled (if not more) in 2005 due to the overwhelming request for more and more chemicals, not necessarily due to the rising cost of oil. If that is the oil industry suffering...I would hate to see what it looks like when we REALLY run out of oil. Believe it or not, the price of gas also takes a toll on the oil industry too. The company that I know had to raise the prices of all the chemicals significantly due to the rising cost of fuel to transport the chemicals. The large oil companies had to compensate for that in millions of dollars difference for the price of the chemicals that they need to be able to drill effectively. Now, I am in no way shape or form sticking up for the oil companies. I don't agree with how they do business, but they do...and make billions.
As far as putting a price control on oil...why would congress do that? The biggest suppliers of campaign funds are the oil companies. **** them off and they just take their money elsewhere and bring in someone new who will meet their demands.
It is sad that it hits the "little guy's" pocket, but as a nation, we could take control. We are a nation VERY dependent on our automobiles. Nobody said that we have to be. Ride a bike to work, take a bus, take a train, buy a more economical car for weekday driving.
Personally I love my 8 and want to keep it forever, but I can buy a really nice bicycle for what 6 months worth of gas costs me in the 8 going back and forth to work and I only work a few miles from my job.
We just need to be smart as a nation. We can talk about it all day long, but until WE actually do something about it...nothing will change.
04-18-2006, 11:16 PM
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Oil markets explained
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/904748.stm
How much oil do we really have?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4681935.stm
China's Quest for Oil
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazi...725174,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3708951.stm
http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/18/mark...reut/index.htm
http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/06/news...tune/index.htm
http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/18/news...tion/index.htm
http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/01/Auto...test/index.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3749377.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/904748.stm
How much oil do we really have?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4681935.stm
China's Quest for Oil
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazi...725174,00.html
There is higher than expected demand in industrialised countries and China's rapidly expanding economy has created a huge demand boost...
...
Low US gasoline stocks and pressure on US refiners to increase production of new gasoline blends have also helped drive world crude oil prices.
Environmental regulations demand new grades of gasoline, which can vary from state to state.
But building processing facilities to serve so many different markets is expensive and environmental concerns can make planning permission difficult to obtain.
...
Low US gasoline stocks and pressure on US refiners to increase production of new gasoline blends have also helped drive world crude oil prices.
Environmental regulations demand new grades of gasoline, which can vary from state to state.
But building processing facilities to serve so many different markets is expensive and environmental concerns can make planning permission difficult to obtain.
"Fear is the driver and remains so," said Kyle Cooper, an analyst at IAF Advisors in Houston. "It is not considered likely that any oil flow from Iran is disrupted, but it is possible."
Median CEO pay rose 1.1 percent to $8.4 million in 2005, according to a preliminary analysis of the 251 FORTUNE 500 companies that had filed proxies as of March 27. (Equilar, a compensation data and research provider, conducted the analysis.)
Felmy suggested Schumer stop the political grandstanding and call for things that will actually bring down gas prices, which he said include more domestic oil production, greater conservation efforts and provisions to make it easier to build more refineries.
While most, it turned out, actually did save gas, some of the fuel-saving advice you commonly hear didn't make much difference at all.
The director of the University of California's Energy Institute, Professor Severin Borenstein claims: "It still costs two or three thousand dollars more to buy a Hybrid and if you do the calculations of how much you would save on gasoline over the life of a car it's unlikely you would ever actually cover your costs."
04-18-2006, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael
Organic chemistry, ***.
And organic chemistry has exactly what to do with the business and politics of the energy market?
04-19-2006, 12:39 AM
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Look, we can all sit around and point fingers all day long, but WE are the ultimate reason oil prices are so high. We have became overly dependent on a single resource. It was only a matter of time before someone came along and decided to exploit it. We live in a capitalist society.
The # 1 goal of big business is to make money. It doesn't matter which country you live in, money is what makes the world go round. Its a fact of life.
In the mean time, here's a little theory you guy's can chew on:
All the big auto manufactures are under increasing pressure from the public to develop and build more hybrid and gas efficient vehicles. These vehicles are probably going to become very popular in the near future. As more and more of these vehicles hit the road, oil companies are going to make less money from gasoline purchases. They have to do something to compensate. So, the more efficient vehicles get, the higher the gas prices will get.
I'm not at all saying this is why the gas prices are high, I've already stated my opinion on that above. But this could be one of the driving factors now or in the future.
The # 1 goal of big business is to make money. It doesn't matter which country you live in, money is what makes the world go round. Its a fact of life.
In the mean time, here's a little theory you guy's can chew on:
All the big auto manufactures are under increasing pressure from the public to develop and build more hybrid and gas efficient vehicles. These vehicles are probably going to become very popular in the near future. As more and more of these vehicles hit the road, oil companies are going to make less money from gasoline purchases. They have to do something to compensate. So, the more efficient vehicles get, the higher the gas prices will get.
I'm not at all saying this is why the gas prices are high, I've already stated my opinion on that above. But this could be one of the driving factors now or in the future.
04-19-2006, 12:53 AM
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I don't disagree at all with the sentiment that America needs to become much more fuel efficient. People need to drive less SUV's or at least not use them as daily drivers. All cars need to be more fuel efficient... although on that note, the constantly increasing weight of cars means that they are both less fuel efficient and require more powerful engines. Because of saftey features? maybe... maybe some of those are occurring because of the need for protection against accidents with the huge overweight SUV's...
Anyway...
The over-dependence on oil is a serious issue... in terms of limited supply, environmental impact and vulernability/security. If there isn't a political will to seriously address this, then there needs to be a "grassroots" level will to push it forward.
The problem with this sentiment is that the it assumes that this is right way to do things or that it HAS to be this way. Maybe for the forseeable future money will be the fuel for society, but we don't need to be driving SUV's, do we?
Anyway...
The over-dependence on oil is a serious issue... in terms of limited supply, environmental impact and vulernability/security. If there isn't a political will to seriously address this, then there needs to be a "grassroots" level will to push it forward.
The # 1 goal of big business is to make money. It doesn't matter which country you live in, money is what makes the world go round. Its a fact of life.
04-19-2006, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by r0tor
I believe an understanding of oil companies is needed here...
High gas prices are a result of high crude oil prices. The amount of refineries that turn crude oil into gasoline doesn't matter if the price of the oil getting to the refineries is 2x what it should be - refineries are not going to sell gasoline cheaper then the crude oil they refine it from.
High gas prices are a result of high crude oil prices. The amount of refineries that turn crude oil into gasoline doesn't matter if the price of the oil getting to the refineries is 2x what it should be - refineries are not going to sell gasoline cheaper then the crude oil they refine it from.
Most integrated oil co's are functionally two separate organizations: Upstream and Downstream. Upstream looks for and pulls the crude out of the ground, and sells it to refiners. Downstream buys crude, refines it, and sells it to the public.
When crude is high (like now), Upstream rakes it in, while Downstream's profits are comparably tiny. When Crude is low, it's the other way around.
So it seems, the oil company as a whole, wins out either way!! True, to an extent. And if you are convinced an oil company has built themselves up to ensure success, the beauty is that you are free (in a manner of speaking) to share in it by becoming a shareholder. those profits aren't all going into one pocket!!
But even through the high/low cycles of crude over the last couple of decades, we have seen virtually no new refineries built. Given the incredible regulatory roadblocks facing any proposed new refinery (to the point of making the considerable capital expense seem trivial), it's not surprising at all that there arent' any new ones. However we should not underestimate the continual expense reinvested into expanding/improving existing refineries and also upstream resources. This runs into the Billion$ per year for each of the likes of XOM, CVX, CP, RDShell. This activity is a big reason why the *unit* Profits of oil companies (net profit per $ of revenue) still lags waaay behind that of Banks, Pharmaceuticals, Software & Hardware, etc. Capital/operating expense is staggering, and stays high even in times of low gross profits.
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