RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

I spent $40.27 to fill up on premium just yesterday.

I can almost guarantee that by July, that will probably be closer to $48.

For 13 gallons of gas.

I feel sorry for the poor bastards driving Suburbans with 40 gallon tanks.

Japan8

When their is a will there is a way...

Necessity (more like greed) is the mother of invention...

Humans' adpatablility and inherent selfishness will always find away around "problems" if given enough time and enough motivation. These supposed regulations and restraints aren't so effective today. There is plenty of price fixing, collusion and monopolies that take place today without any government intervention or with only a "slap on the wrist."

It's rather naive to think that pure market economics is what's controlling energy prices (significant factor, yes. The only factor...).

strokercharged95gt

Is it any suprise that the oil industry is sticking it to the citizens. You seem suprised? GWB cant serve another term. All of his cronies are Big Oil and they are raking in big profits at our expense. Don't expect anything to change, you voted for him now pay up bitches!

sti_eric

See, this is the wrong attitude to take. It is the attitude that all emissions have to be eliminated at all costs. This is completely unreasonable, yet it is the stance that the 'environmentalist wackos' that I speak of take. We have to weigh the costs vs the benefit. If a diesel engine has double the emissions of a conventional gas engine but gets double the mileage, then the emissions per mile driven work out to be the same.

I wouldn't say that I am emotional about it, just trying to bring out the facts. The fact is, the requirements for Tier 2 emissions are too strict. The costs outweigh the benefits.

The other problem for me is that all these people crying about high gas prices and crying about how the government is controlled by big oil are the same ones who wanted these ultra-strict emissions laws to be enacted. Environmentalists are the ones who have restricted power supply, restricted diesel engine production, restricted refineries from being built. Now these are the very same people who are crying about high gas prices. Well, what did you think was going to happen?

No, but it HAS stopped BMW, MB, Audi, VW, Opel (GM), etc from bringing highly efficient diesel autos over here. There hasn't been a demand for them up to this point, because with gas prices ridiculously low, Americans had no incentive for diesel autos. Now that gas prices are rising rapidly, we will NEED diesels autos to be brought over here. Unfortunately, these autos are now going to cost thousands of dollars more than they should in order to meet Tier 2 standards, as well as have decreased performance, heavier weight, etc.

bascho

^ Eric, I think you and I need to agree to disagree on this issue

bascho

I voted Gore and then Kerry.....don't blame me.

Japan8

More like investment is more in the hands of investment bankers, money managers and fund managers. Wonder what kind of affect $5 or $8/gallon gas will have on funds...

What makes you an expert on this one? Economics? Bah. You do know that these "numbers" disciplines aren't the be all authority. I'd say sociology and history show a pattern for Americans that seems to disagree with your statement.

10-15 years is a long time?

What evidence do you have that there will be mass changes due to high energy costs? Even the 70's oil crisis is a poor measure because of several factors that make the situation now not really the same as then... other than rapidly rising gasoline prices.

My view... idiots need to put off beating on automakers for tighter emissions on new cars at this point in time and focus their efforts on getting dirty, gas guzzling old cars off the road. While they're at it, things like power plants should be cleaned up more too.

bascho

But what would the 13,000,000 illegal immigrants drive around then?

sti_eric

Don't remember saying that I was an "expert". Just on here giving my opinions, like everyone else. However, I do believe that what we know about economics and what history has shown us is on my side.

Besides what economic theory and history has shown us to be true...there is Europe. Gas costs up to $8 a gallon there. As a result, well over 50% of the cars sold there are energy efficient diesels which can get over 50 mpg. I dare say that if gas here got up to $8/gallon, there would be many, many, many people who would want to ditch their gas hog SUVs for diesels.

sti_eric

But those 13,000,000 immigrants have about 12 cars (vans) between them.

bascho

Japan8

Uh, no it hasn't and that's why we're disagreeing. Economics may support your arguments (may... as things like collusion, gov't corruption, etc. etc. haven't been accounted for), however, history does not. Europe serves as a very poor example. The 70's oil crisis is a better fit and even then the differences between then and now make it hard to draw a strong conclusion.

Like I said... this is America not Europe. It don't work. The Japanese don't extensively drive diesel (mainly in SUV's only... not vans), but their gas costs are high... more than 70% taxes...

sti_eric

The 1973 oil crisis is a spectacular example of what I am talking about, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. As a direct result of rising gas prices (among other factors), US auto makers turned their focus from giant, big block land barges to more fuel efficient and front wheel drive vehicles. This is a great example of how the market reacts to consumer demands.

Also let it be known that the long lines at the gas stations in 1973 were a direct result of the price controls placed on gasoline at the time. Once again showing that price controls only cause shortages.

Japan8

I'll give you the example of price controls during the oil crisis, but that's just about it.

US companies didn't change to small front wheel drive cars as a direct result of the oil crisis. They did because that is what the JAPANESE auto makers offered and THEIR cars were selling... initially because they were significantly more fuel efficient and cheap.

Fast forward to 2006... outside of the Korean makers, there are no "new" or "low cost" auto makers out there to offer a better machine for us. Technologies that may or do increase fuel economy only results in a higher sticker for the car. 6 of one, half dozen of another? Alternative fuels, etc... would cost us enormous amount per vehicle. Ever noticed the difference in society between then and now? That's something...

MikeW

Someone cue the Segway, again.

450mpg equivalent, supposedly, with the Li-ion batteries.

sti_eric

I get where you're trying to go here. First you are arguing with me, now it seems like you are agreeing. Here, you are saying the exact same thing that I am...the market (consumers) dictated the move from large gas guzzlers to smaller, more fuel efficient cars. The Japanese cars were selling because they were small and fuel efficient. This is what consumers wanted, so that is what the market provided. Simple economics. Same thing will happen with rising gas prices now.

Again, you are basically saying the same thing that I have been saying. Alternative vehicles cost more money than conventional gas vehicles. Since gas has been so cheap, there has been no incentive for consumers to buy or manufacturers to produce vehicles which use alternative fuel sources.

However, I disagree with "Technologies that may or do increase fuel economy only results in a higher sticker for the car." Diesel technology is a technology that we have right now, and on average costs marginally more than a gas engine (usually in the $100-$1000 range). In the UK, a BMW 118i starts at 17,800 and gets 36 mpg, while a 118d starts at 17,885 and gets 50+ mpg.

bascho

^ what does a gallon of diesel cost compared to a gallon of 87 octane in the UK? Is the difference relatively the same as here in the US?

Ike

The new Prius is rumored to make over 100mpg and be quicker than the current model, at that rate it WILL be worth it if you're looking to save money.

On a side note, premium is up to 3.10 in my area today.

Animagix

my next car would probably have decent economy thanks to gas prices. rx8 may be a daily driver no more... maybe auto-x it.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

of that $1.30 left over, only 64 cents per gallon is a variable cost as the rest is a fixed tax.

That 64 cents includes the cost of refining (which is proportional to fuel costs) and profits which are effected by the lack of refineries... if you take a look back in history over 5 years, the gas prices have been increased over $1 per gallon because of crude oil costs compared to 50 cents for the variable refining costs. Bottom line is its still the crude prices killing us.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

show me where "big oil" is screwing people.

over 80% of Exxonmobil's profits last year was a direct result of profit made from pulling crude out of the ground for $20/barrel and selling at the market dictated price of $60+/barrel. They did not set the rediculous price, that is what the worldwide stock market is dictating the price of oil is... nothing they can do about it.

As per my above post, the profits of turning crude oil into gasoline is zilch - that is the place they can stick it to the consumer and they absolutely are not.


So please, show me where "Big Oil" is sticking it to citizens with something called PROOF instead of meaningless accusations.

efini_8

last year, the most i paid was $4.09 for premium... right now its about $3.19-29 average where i live.

Japan8

Well... yes and no. It's more like I think you are making a "causal fallacy" (http://www.uni-trier.de/~schaefew/fallacies.htm#causal). While the two situations may resemble each other, the exact causes... socio-political environment, economy, techonology and such are different. It is more complicated than a mere A + B = C.

No more like I am saying that hybrid vehicles aren't efficient enough now to be worth the extra money they cost. A Civic Hybrid vs Civic high fuel economy model using VTEC... the non-hybrid not only gets better gas mileage, but costs less too. Alternative fuels are caught in a chicken and egg situation... made even worse with oil companies having no real incentive to invest in pushing it forward (especially with record high gas prices)... and they are our current fueling infrastructure. Add in the higher cost, shorter range, storage issues and such with most of them...

Uh, strawman argument.

A diesel engine is not a technology that increases fuel economy. It's an alternative fuel. Technology that increase fuel economy are things like hybrid cars... I am refering to improving the efficiency of gasoline powered internal combustion engines.

I've never argued against diesels here... making this yet again another strawman. However, I will say that they are more expensive, heavier (crash protection issues), and historically slow performers. Yes, recent models from particuarly MB are showing pretty decent performance now, but we'll see how that works out when one tries to apply it to cars like a Civic Si.

Also... I agree with Bascho on the emissions issue with diesels. I don't see any reason to allow them to blow smog producing exhaust just in the name of savings a few dollars. I'm no major envrionmentalist, but I do also like clean air and hate hot weather.

You also haven't addressed the fact that then isn't now. The yen isn't at the fixed exchange rate of $1 USD = 360 yen anymore. Bretton Woods system collapsing in 1971, being replaced by the Plaza Accord of 1985. The change of the US economy from manufacturing based to service based. The growth of the overal size of the US economy since 1970. The changes in the international monetary/financial system since 1970 and near impossiblity of governments causing lasting affects on the exchange rate by buying/selling currency. There are a host of other things that can be named as well...

AAAAND... as I mentioned previously, the Japanese don't extensively drive diesel and gas is pretty damn expensive here. No everyone doesn't ride the train... if they did traffic would be much better and there are no trains to take to places if you don't live in Tokyo. Even in nearby Saitama prefecture you need a car. You can train to work and back, but after that you need a car to go shopping, etc. So again... like I said... Europe is not a valid example/parallel to use here. America is NOT Europe for many reasons and even the 1973 oil crisis is not a perfect match for the present situation. Japan is a closer match for comparison to Europe... social services, taxes, land space, cost of living, energy costs... but still they don't extensively use diesel.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

drove around and I think Gas prices in NYC has been what, I think over the 3.00 mark since a week ago. Last I checked (just before, got home not long ago) was 3.15 at a local BP and 3.10 at mobil. (Premium, of course)

Sigh .... Lets see.

Diesel is not an answer, STI_Eric. yes its one of the way to increase fuel economy simply because it burns slower, since most of the Diesel , I think you can pretty much say its "left overs" when they make Gasoline. They produce alot more SMOG than Gasoline powered cars. I dont really care about Black smoke but I do care about the Ice melting all over the place.

I see more and more commericals from GM/Ford, both trying to tell people that

"Use Ethanol, AKA E85 ! Flex Fuel blah blah blah"

As far as I know theres NO gas station can pump E85, at least in New York City. and funny thing is most people still dont know WTF is E85/Ethanol, they wonder wtf is Ethanol why the pump saids theres MAX 10% added to the fuel?

some even said "You cant put Corn Oil into cars! its going to mess it up !" sigh ...

Yes some GM/Ford models can use Flex Fuel, but they dont even mention it much at the showroom. and most of the Auto companies out there does NOT have any rebates/incentives on Hybird cars. AND they usually cost maybe a few K more than their Gasoline only buddies. and those few K can buy u quite alot of gas. and dont forget, Hybird car's reliability ..... is unknown at this time. I have a feeling that we're going to see alot of "dead" Prius maybe 2-3 years from now. and most people would scream because its going to cost like 4 thousand bucks to replace the batteries.

What they need to do now is, come up with something that can use less fuel while making more power. more E85. or at least tell people that you can get Tax cut if you buy a Hybird/Flew Fuel auto(most people dont even know!)