Official GT-R info (pricing!)
09-29-2007, 03:25 PM
#26
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What most people forget that transmissions like the DSG and SMG transmissions ARE manual transmissions, they are sequential manual transmissions just like those in F1 cars, The Veryon has a 7 speed DSG.
DSGs are manual transmissions that have clutches and syncros that are controlled by using paddle shifters, the auto part is an addon to the this type of transmission.
Having driven both a 6MT GTI and TT and comparing them to the DSG version, the DSG is an amazing transmission, it's much more engaging IMO, because it reacts so fast, it does what YOU want it to do.
The DSG equipped cars were not only faster in a straight line, but faster around corners because you could downshift, and it will revmatch for you, but since the shifts are so lighting quick, around tight corners where you would normally bounce off the revlimiter in say 2nd gear, you can quickly shift to third gain more momentum, then downshift back to second in fractions of a second without losing time like you would with a regular MT.
Just like an MT, if you put it in non-auto mode, it'll hold gears as long as you want, although once you hit the fuel cut it'll automatically upshift for you, but you can ride the engine near redline until it blows up and the transmission won't shift, until either you upshift or you hit the fuel cut which it'll upshift for you.
DSG is great, I am very impressed, if the DSG in the Evo X and the GTR is anything like the DSG in the GTI and TT, I won't miss a traditional shifter and clutch MT style.
DSGs are manual transmissions that have clutches and syncros that are controlled by using paddle shifters, the auto part is an addon to the this type of transmission.
Having driven both a 6MT GTI and TT and comparing them to the DSG version, the DSG is an amazing transmission, it's much more engaging IMO, because it reacts so fast, it does what YOU want it to do.
The DSG equipped cars were not only faster in a straight line, but faster around corners because you could downshift, and it will revmatch for you, but since the shifts are so lighting quick, around tight corners where you would normally bounce off the revlimiter in say 2nd gear, you can quickly shift to third gain more momentum, then downshift back to second in fractions of a second without losing time like you would with a regular MT.
Just like an MT, if you put it in non-auto mode, it'll hold gears as long as you want, although once you hit the fuel cut it'll automatically upshift for you, but you can ride the engine near redline until it blows up and the transmission won't shift, until either you upshift or you hit the fuel cut which it'll upshift for you.
DSG is great, I am very impressed, if the DSG in the Evo X and the GTR is anything like the DSG in the GTI and TT, I won't miss a traditional shifter and clutch MT style.
The DSG is not sequential, which is the main reason for having two clutches. Also, it's absolutely an automatic, it's just a very good one. If it can and will shift for you it's an automatic, end of story.
This is purely opinion, but I found the DSG to be far less engaging than the MT. I felt disconnected and like I was playing a video game with the DSG. Also, the power modulation possible with a MT will never be achieved by an automatic car, not matter how advanced the system is.
DSG is only faster when it has the launch control. In the US where there is no launch control the fastest stock cars have been MT's. No matter how fast the car shifts, an excellent driver is still better in this case. Also, there have been a couple track tests with the DSG against the MT GTI, and the MT was always faster around the road course even when the DSG car was faster in a straight line.
09-29-2007, 03:38 PM
#27
I don't buy Kool-Aid
Yeah but who the hell buys a car like this and takes it to the track? I never see F450's or Lambos on the track like $30k cars. Guess we'll just have to wait and see what Nissan has up there sleave.
09-29-2007, 03:56 PM
#28
stop flooding ur engines
the both of u are wrong....
dsg is a manual, it has gears and synchros and a clutch disc (two of them). thats a manual trans. an auto has clutch packs and valve bodies both of which the dsg has not.....
ppl track supercars all the time, do u ever track ur 8? bc i do. and i see nothing but supercars. my 8 was the cheapest car on the track. i very much enjoy getting my doors blown off by vipers zo6s porsches and aston martins...
dsg is a manual, it has gears and synchros and a clutch disc (two of them). thats a manual trans. an auto has clutch packs and valve bodies both of which the dsg has not.....
ppl track supercars all the time, do u ever track ur 8? bc i do. and i see nothing but supercars. my 8 was the cheapest car on the track. i very much enjoy getting my doors blown off by vipers zo6s porsches and aston martins...
09-29-2007, 04:47 PM
#29
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the both of u are wrong....
dsg is a manual, it has gears and synchros and a clutch disc (two of them). thats a manual trans. an auto has clutch packs and valve bodies both of which the dsg has not.....
ppl track supercars all the time, do u ever track ur 8? bc i do. and i see nothing but supercars. my 8 was the cheapest car on the track. i very much enjoy getting my doors blown off by vipers zo6s porsches and aston martins...
dsg is a manual, it has gears and synchros and a clutch disc (two of them). thats a manual trans. an auto has clutch packs and valve bodies both of which the dsg has not.....
ppl track supercars all the time, do u ever track ur 8? bc i do. and i see nothing but supercars. my 8 was the cheapest car on the track. i very much enjoy getting my doors blown off by vipers zo6s porsches and aston martins...
09-29-2007, 06:44 PM
#31
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09-29-2007, 07:33 PM
#32
stop flooding ur engines
yes well the word automatic and manual are defined as i said.
YOU can THINK its an auto all u want, but its literally a manual trans...
whateevr, internet arguing hurts my head
YOU can THINK its an auto all u want, but its literally a manual trans...
whateevr, internet arguing hurts my head
09-29-2007, 09:43 PM
#33
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Wow, this thread has gone horribly but interestingly OT.
The key distinction is that these SMG/DSG boxes do not have a torque convertor and the associated driveline losses. They are manual gear boxes, albeit automatically (or paddle) shifted. I agree there's a lot of satisfaction in expertly rowing your own gears, but to say there's no advantage to SMG/DSG would just plain be wrong. F1 cars are driven by the best driver's in the world and yet they have these "automatic" gear boxes. Here's one of my favorite clips of Ayrton Senna's 1991 Manaco pole laps in a convential manual box: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkv6...elated&search= The YouTube clip loses some of the quality, but if you watch that clip in full resolution on a big screen TV it's just insane! And today's F1 car's are turning the same if not faster lap times with less power. Granted there are many technological advances that contribute to that, but these new gearboxes are a big part of it.
The key distinction is that these SMG/DSG boxes do not have a torque convertor and the associated driveline losses. They are manual gear boxes, albeit automatically (or paddle) shifted. I agree there's a lot of satisfaction in expertly rowing your own gears, but to say there's no advantage to SMG/DSG would just plain be wrong. F1 cars are driven by the best driver's in the world and yet they have these "automatic" gear boxes. Here's one of my favorite clips of Ayrton Senna's 1991 Manaco pole laps in a convential manual box: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkv6...elated&search= The YouTube clip loses some of the quality, but if you watch that clip in full resolution on a big screen TV it's just insane! And today's F1 car's are turning the same if not faster lap times with less power. Granted there are many technological advances that contribute to that, but these new gearboxes are a big part of it.
09-29-2007, 10:43 PM
#34
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Wow, this thread has gone horribly but interestingly OT.
The key distinction is that these SMG/DSG boxes do not have a torque convertor and the associated driveline losses. They are manual gear boxes, albeit automatically (or paddle) shifted. I agree there's a lot of satisfaction in expertly rowing your own gears, but to say there's no advantage to SMG/DSG would just plain be wrong. F1 cars are driven by the best driver's in the world and yet they have these "automatic" gear boxes. Here's one of my favorite clips of Ayrton Senna's 1991 Manaco pole laps in a convential manual box: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkv6...elated&search= The YouTube clip loses some of the quality, but if you watch that clip in full resolution on a big screen TV it's just insane! And today's F1 car's are turning the same if not faster lap times with less power. Granted there are many technological advances that contribute to that, but these new gearboxes are a big part of it.
The key distinction is that these SMG/DSG boxes do not have a torque convertor and the associated driveline losses. They are manual gear boxes, albeit automatically (or paddle) shifted. I agree there's a lot of satisfaction in expertly rowing your own gears, but to say there's no advantage to SMG/DSG would just plain be wrong. F1 cars are driven by the best driver's in the world and yet they have these "automatic" gear boxes. Here's one of my favorite clips of Ayrton Senna's 1991 Manaco pole laps in a convential manual box: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkv6...elated&search= The YouTube clip loses some of the quality, but if you watch that clip in full resolution on a big screen TV it's just insane! And today's F1 car's are turning the same if not faster lap times with less power. Granted there are many technological advances that contribute to that, but these new gearboxes are a big part of it.
I'm not denying that these new gearboxes are good, but a manual and automatic isn't defined by whether is has a clutch or a torque converter. If you have to manually disengage the clutch and select a gear it's a manual, if you push a little button and the car does the rest of the work for you it's an automatic whether it's done so with a clutch or not. I'm the one being literal here, some of you are the ones placing constarints on the definition of manual and automatic that simply don't exist. Lastly, yes, the current F1 cars are automatics.
09-29-2007, 10:51 PM
#35
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I agree with Ike there,
manuals = doing the mechanical work ourselves (both clutch and shifter) instead of electric motors doing it for us.
Clutch = you gotta push it, its all linked mechanically
same as shifter, the shifter in the SMGs send digital signals. (expect for sequential boxes?)
________
GLASS BUBBLERS
manuals = doing the mechanical work ourselves (both clutch and shifter) instead of electric motors doing it for us.
Clutch = you gotta push it, its all linked mechanically
same as shifter, the shifter in the SMGs send digital signals. (expect for sequential boxes?)
________
GLASS BUBBLERS
Last edited by Renesis_8; 09-11-2011 at 01:22 PM.
09-29-2007, 11:12 PM
#36
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Who cares about the meanings of words? The issue should be whether or not a sports car should shift for you. That's just really out of this world for me. I have to have my own gears to shift, that's half of the fun of driving a sports car. Will they eventually have automatic steering and braking too?
09-29-2007, 11:21 PM
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You guys really NEED to drive the new Audi and VWs and compare the 6MT to the DSG.
The DSG is really really that good IMO. I wouldn't complain if I had one.
You CAN select your own gears, and you CAN upshift/downshift whenever you want. And it does it faster than you could with a normal clutch/gearbox
The DSG is really really that good IMO. I wouldn't complain if I had one.
You CAN select your own gears, and you CAN upshift/downshift whenever you want. And it does it faster than you could with a normal clutch/gearbox
09-29-2007, 11:24 PM
#38
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You guys really NEED to drive the new Audi and VWs and compare the 6MT to the DSG.
The DSG is really really that good IMO. I wouldn't complain if I had one.
You CAN select your own gears, and you CAN upshift/downshift whenever you want. And it does it faster than you could with a normal clutch/gearbox
The DSG is really really that good IMO. I wouldn't complain if I had one.
You CAN select your own gears, and you CAN upshift/downshift whenever you want. And it does it faster than you could with a normal clutch/gearbox
09-29-2007, 11:26 PM
#39
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I'll concede to the literal definition - they do shift automatically, so a spade is a spade. And I admit I love shifting manually also, so there's something lost with electronics/hydraulics doing the work. I just wanted to point out the technical distintion about the torque converter. I've driven the old (05 or 06 model IIRC) M3 with SMG and it was a POS based on my limited test drive. Supposedly BMW's new SMG is much better and I'd still like to get a drive in a truely well done setup. I do believe it's the way of the future, like it or not.
F1 today definitely has some faults (e.g. controlled tires, very strict aero and other technical regulations), but it's still my favorite form of motor racing. I particularly like the new knock-out qualifying format. In a sense it's pretty much the true race!
F1 today definitely has some faults (e.g. controlled tires, very strict aero and other technical regulations), but it's still my favorite form of motor racing. I particularly like the new knock-out qualifying format. In a sense it's pretty much the true race!
09-29-2007, 11:27 PM
#40
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That and I thought the 6MT in both the GTI and the TT are sloppy, and the clutch wasn't the greatest either, it felt more engaging with the DSG than with the 6MT.
Maybe it's just those two cars, but the 6MT in those cars are pretty blah.
09-29-2007, 11:50 PM
#41
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Now this is racing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2tIFxSEGA
RIP Gilles Villeneuve
09-30-2007, 01:20 AM
#42
I don't buy Kool-Aid
09-30-2007, 01:26 PM
#47
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"The Japanese press is reporting that the GT-R's twin-turbocharged 3.8-liter six-cylinder engine (designated VR38) will produce up to 550 horsepower. Initially, it will be mated only to a sequential automatic gearbox with paddle shifters on the steering wheel. Eventually, Nissan also plans to offer a manual transmission and already is developing uplevel V-spec and Evo variants, according to the local media."
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=122781
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=122781
Last edited by camaro194; 09-30-2007 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Adding link for reference
09-30-2007, 02:34 PM
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I'm with Ike, I drove the DSG GTI, and yeah it's smooth and blah blah, but who cares. I though I was going to fall asleep.
But back to the GTR, dunno just doesn't do much for me. I regularly sit in traffic with 911 Turbos and they seem to be going the same speed as me.. So who really cares.
10-01-2007, 04:01 AM
#50
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It's impressive because of how crappy the manuals are from audi/vw.
I'm with Ike, I drove the DSG GTI, and yeah it's smooth and blah blah, but who cares. I though I was going to fall asleep.
But back to the GTR, dunno just doesn't do much for me. I regularly sit in traffic with 911 Turbos and they seem to be going the same speed as me.. So who really cares.
I'm with Ike, I drove the DSG GTI, and yeah it's smooth and blah blah, but who cares. I though I was going to fall asleep.
But back to the GTR, dunno just doesn't do much for me. I regularly sit in traffic with 911 Turbos and they seem to be going the same speed as me.. So who really cares.
Anyhow, I think the DSG is too smooth. You barely even know it shifts, even when going full out. A small jerk when shifting would actually make it better IMO. After the initial novelty wears off it really is like playing a boring video game. If I were to own one I'd give it 2 days before I stopped using the stupid little buttons on the steering wheel and just drove it like a regular old automatic 95% of the time.