When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Wanklebolt, i can take a joke but I am sure it is against the rules of this group to make up quotes that were never said, and then post them as real . Not sure the forum moderators would like that trend. As a career journalist, in my profession that could lead to a libel suit. Speak your opinion, but this forum is no place for made up quotes, and made up history,
Never said, not a real quote
Flashback to 1999:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwilliams6 View Post
Mazda knows all too well the bad rap the RX-7 got for its reliability issues. I predict this will be the most extensively tested Mazda in the 80 year history of the company by the time of its arrival in 2002.
PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To constitute an oil supply mechanism for supplying an oil to a gas seal portion of a rotor while improving mountability of a rotary piston engine and improving performance.
SOLUTION: A rotary piston engine 1 is disposed so that a long axis Y of a cocoon-shaped rotor accommodation chamber 31 is directed in a vertical direction, and an opening portion 110 of an intake port 11 is disposed on a position at a lower side with respect to an output shaft X on side faces of side housings 4, 5. An oil supply port 73 formed on a rotor housing is formed on a position overlapped to an opening portion of the intake port in a rotating direction of the rotor, a nozzle 71 for supplying the oil is inserted obliquely upward toward a trochoid inner peripheral face from an oblique lower portion of the outer peripheral face to the rotor housing, and a tip of the nozzle is positioned at an inner part with respect to a through bolt 14.
It looks like the 3 oil injector setup is here to stay. More important: the oil injection lines will now be in the coldest part of the engine, and will also be near the bottom of the engine. This should keep them away from the hottest parts of the engine, thus alleviating the oil line embrittlement problems sometimes found on current rotaries. And also reducing the possibility of clogging of such lines due to oil giving off deposits due to the high temperatures.
But what's that "structure" surrounding the spark plugs? It starts at the top of the engine and then goes all the way along the spark plug side of the engine to the oil pan. Non of the older rotaries had anything like that as far as I know.
PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To provide a cooling device of a rotary piston engine improved in cooling performance of ignition plug hole wall portions in the rotary piston engine.
SOLUTION: A cooling device of a rotary piston engine 1 includes a plurality of water jackets 12 for circulating cooling liquid from a water pump W/P to the neighborhood of at least plug hole wall portions 11c, 11d in a rotor housing 11. Opening portions at an inlet side, of the water jackets 12 are provided with throttle wall portions 20 for reducing opening areas of the opening portions. A communication passage 21 for circulating the cooling liquid flowing therein from the opening portions with the throttle wall portions 20 to a downstream side with respect to the plug wall portions 11c, 11d of the water jackets 12, is disposed at a trochoid wall portion 22 side near the plug hole wall portions 11c, 11d in the engine 1.
Wanklebolt, I never threatened you personally with libel, so don't get nervous. Posting fake quotes in a public setting as truth ,is not protected by satire under the law. I teach Journalism and the law at university level ,and my students study many examples of libel cases. You are misinformed about it.
BTW, I owned all three generations of RX7 and they didn't get many bad raps in the press or in the RX7club, of which I am one of the original members from 1978. I will bet on the next RX9, or whatever it is called, to be a true technological advancement. Mazda hasn't let me done yet. Each successive rotary car has seen major advances in engine and chassis development. The next one I am sure will carry this forward, and stun many doubters. And I will be ready to own one, to add to my stable.
Cheers !
Last edited by gwilliams6; 08-27-2016 at 09:56 AM.
Wanklebolt, I never threatened you personally with libel, so don't get nervous. Posting fake quotes in a public setting as truth ,is not protected by satire under the law.
True: You implied a threat of libel and to tell on me to the moderators. Implying threats shows much more integrity.
I'm not nervous because under no rational circumstances could what I posted be interpreted as "truth" so it was an utterly impotent threat.
I think your students aren't getting their money's worth.
BTW, I owned all three generations of RX7 and they didn't get many bad raps in the press or in the RX7club [...]
This is a falsehood I can't let stand, "career journalist" or not. Such misleading statements are a huge disservice to potential owners.
A trivial search of RX7club finds all kinds of design flaws. There is the famous "RX-7 Lemon" website dedicated to the FD's problems. Any article published now about the FD always remarks about their "unreliability" or "tendency to grenade". I've owned a bunch of FB's and two FD's, including a CYM R1 for 15 years. The FDs are fantastic cars, but demanding mistresses that reward the slightest inattention by spitting apex seals. I suggest that your journalistic impartiality is damaged by your demonstrated blind zealotry for Mazda rotaries.
I will bet on the next RX9, or whatever it is called, to be a true technological advancement. Mazda hasn't let me done yet. Each successive rotary car has seen major advances in engine and chassis development. The next one I am sure will carry this forward, and stun many doubters. And I will be ready to own one, to add to my stable.
If they do come out with an RX-9, I'll be right there in line with you.
But if it has flaws, I won't be trying to hide them and claim publicly "there are no flaws, there were no flaws, there never will be any flaws".
I have owned multiple rotaries just as you,including FD and yes they got some bad raps, but far more great reviews. Just like complaints here it was often from poor maintenance and poor understanding of how to care and drive them, as well as any design flaws. All my RX7s were bulletproof, up to and including my three boosted ones, all the way up to 400+ hp. They still have an almost legendary appreciation from the motoring press ,race drivers , and street drivers who put stock and modified ones through the fire. Mazda has always tried to address each rotary model's shortcomings with improvements in the next generation. Mazda will do it again.
I believe Mazda realizes they have to get this RXVision right, right out of the box, if they are to save the rotary engine as a viable main powerplant, and not just some range-extender for an electric generator. Any car will have teething pains, but I am willing to bet my money this will be the best rotary that Mazda has ever engineered and tested, before they will ever let it out to a critical public.
Again you make up quotes i never said; "there are no flaws, there were no flaws, there never will be any flaws". If you wish to come off as thoughtful in your arguments, then forget the made up quotes. They don't strengthen your arguments.
Last edited by gwilliams6; 08-27-2016 at 03:48 PM.
Mazda knows all too well the bad rap the RX8 got for its reliability issues. I predict this will be the most extensively tested Mazda in the 100 year history of the company by the time of its arrival in 2020. The emissions, fuel economy and power and performance goals will be met. It won't be an $80,000 car but it won't be cheap either. Mazda's aim with this car is NOT another affordable good performer (it will have the next generation of the MX5 for that). This is their halo car, and if they only sell a limited amount, Mazda will be satisfied if that car is astounding ! I think Mazda will stun any doubters. They have the technical prowess to pull this off !
I am ready to order one, while keeping my 40th Anniversary RX8, a proud partner to this 100th Mazda anniversary gift to the automotive world. Cheers !
The thing I find hilarious about this is that you have no actual data to back up your claims. This is nothing but motivated reasoning.
Also, you don't seem to know how to use exclamation marks. This is something that I would have expected a journalist would know. (Hint: they're like periods in that there isn't a space between them and the preceding word.)
Sorry to stray from the pissing contests going on here, but from the patents it looks as though Mazda has been working on the lubrication and cooling of the next rotary. I imagine they learned their lesson on the crappy Gen 1 Rx8 ignition system so that should not be an issue in the next motor. So all that is left is emissions, fuel economy to an extent and torque. I imagine this next one will be boosted which will help with torque (but not Fuel Economy) but less weight and more torque should offset any increase in fuel use so maybe that will work itself out.
Wonder what they have in store to improve emissions?
Sorry to stray from the pissing contests going on here, but from the patents it looks as though Mazda has been working on the lubrication and cooling of the next rotary. I imagine they learned their lesson on the crappy Gen 1 Rx8 ignition system so that should not be an issue in the next motor. So all that is left is emissions, fuel economy to an extent and torque. I imagine this next one will be boosted which will help with torque (but not Fuel Economy) but less weight and more torque should offset any increase in fuel use so maybe that will work itself out.
Wonder what they have in store to improve emissions?
The rx-9 concept right now has a 2 rotor single turbo (no boost ratings or anything of that sort yet) so you're correct there. The lubrication is going to be essential for longer apex seal lifespan and I have no clue how they can improve fuel economy. ive heard of a new "skyactive R" concept for the rotaries so I assume very high compression ratios
Mazda did file a patent for a 2-rotor turbo rotary tilted 90˚ so that the exhaust was on top and intake was on the right. However, there's no way to predict if that patent is representative of what will end up in the next RX (assuming it ever happens).
Mazda make a big deal in their RX-VISION literature about how the rotary allows them to have an extremely low hood. I do kind of wonder how they are going to deal with all the heat of the turbo up right against the hood. BBQ/brake caliper paint over that section?
Also, indulging in some pedantry...
There's no RX-9 concept. There's no RX-9 anything except speculation in the media.
Since they never opened the hood on the RX-VISION concept, there's no way to know what (if anything) was powering it.
[...] I have no clue how they can improve fuel economy. ive heard of a new "skyactive R" concept for the rotaries so I assume very high compression ratios
The two schemes that we know Mazda is exploring for all vehicles are HCCI (high compression) and Frickin' Lasers! (laser ignition). Both already mentioned in this thread. Either could improve Wankel emissions and efficiency by more-complete combustion.
Originally Posted by NotAPreppie
I do kind of wonder how they are going to deal with all the heat of the turbo up right against the hood. BBQ/brake caliper paint over that section?
1. You're assuming it will be top-mounted. Best performance and efficiency would dictate that, but packaging might mean mounting it further away. 2. If your assumption is correct, proper insulation and heat shielding isn't that hard though it might be expensive.
Also, indulging in some pedantry...
There's no RX-9 concept. There's no RX-9 anything except speculation in the media.
Since they never opened the hood on the RX-VISION concept, there's no way to know what (if anything) was powering it.
It was powered by Little Ponies and Rainbows and Dreams!
1. You're assuming it will be top-mounted. Best performance and efficiency would dictate that, but packaging might mean mounting it further away.
2. If your assumption is correct, proper insulation and heat shielding isn't that hard though it might be expensive.
If you look at the illustrations in the patent, it's shown as top mount. Obviously that can change but keeping the turbo closer to the induction track will probably reduce complexity/cost and improve performance.
The rx-9 concept right now has a 2 rotor single turbo (no boost ratings or anything of that sort yet) so you're correct there. The lubrication is going to be essential for longer apex seal lifespan and I have no clue how they can improve fuel economy. ive heard of a new "skyactive R" concept for the rotaries so I assume very high compression ratios
It is going to have a form of skactiv technology I'm sure, the injectors more than likely will be which should improve fuel economy.
The patents posted above show improvements and changes to the lubrication system and water jackets for cooling looks like the new triple lube system thing is the new OMP (hopes its a million times better and seals last FOREVER!) power train improvements can help with fuel economy as well as everything mentioned before light weight etc.
The engine being mounted differently probably plays a part too
The links have good info and images of the "skyactiv-R"
What we know:
400hp (I think they will hit the mark in the power dept.)
EFR style turbo with shorter exhaust ports (quicker spooling turbo)
skyactiv tech
larger displacement (more torque?)
changes to housings and rotors
exhaust ports on top intake ports on the bottom
and the displacement comes from a taller but narrower rotor, giving the engine longer stroke. along with the increase from the amount of fuel/air it can ingest the lever arm is also physically greater(eshaft to tip of rotor), enhancing torque.
What we know:
400hp (I think they will hit the mark in the power dept.)
Bwahahahaahahhhahhaa!
Tomorrow's my 42nd birthday, but thanks the great laugh a day early!
How many vehicles in Mazda's complete history have they released in the 400 hp range, that were not dedicated race cars?
Hell, let's make a separate group just for their race cars, just to see how many of their 2 rotor engines can hit the 400 hp mark.
400 hp is a number pulled out of someone's smelly, hemorrhoid plagued ***.
The only way a future rotary powered car (if one ever makes it to production that is) is going to have 400 hp is when someone stuffs an LS3 into it.
Tomorrow's my 42nd birthday, but thanks the great laugh a day early!
How many vehicles in Mazda's complete history have they released in the 400 hp range, that were not dedicated race cars?
Hell, let's make a separate group just for their race cars, just to see how many of their 2 rotor engines can hit the 400 hp mark.
400 hp is a number pulled out of someone's smelly, hemorrhoid plagued ***.
The only way a future rotary powered car (if one ever makes it to production that is) is going to have 400 hp is when someone stuffs an LS3 into it.
BC.
I agree. There's just no way I can believe that number. Mazda has never focused on power before and I see no reason they would now. With their more limited resources in comparison to the other Japanese companies, why would they even think about trying to build a supercar? It would make absolutely no sense. I'd be impressed if they even approached 300hp reliably. They need to produce something they can sell a lot of. Something in the 2700-2800 lb range with 275-300hp would seem much more reasonable and more likely, and I'd gladly take it.
Frankly, they must hit 400hp, if for no other reason than marketing. The RX8 was (originally) rated 250, in 2002, 14yrs ago! The FD had 255 in 1993
Time moves on. 2016 is the year of 325hp Fusions, 400+hp Mustang/Camaro/M3, 650hp Vettes, 700hp Fiats, whoops I mean Chrysler.
By 2020, add 50-100hp to all the above numbers. 400hp will be the bare-minimum entry point to be taken seriously. It should be quite attainable, given modern tricks such as direct injection and variable geometry turbos. I hope they can pull it off.
Frankly, they must hit 400hp, if for no other reason than marketing..
you guys keep talking like Mazda is going to or has EVER wanted the RX to appeal to the mass audience.
they don't
they won't
The people that will buy this car are car guys. The new RX isn't meant to lead the company in sales or profitability, it's a Halo car. A vehicle to make a statement on the road, not on some spec sheet or in a brochure.
It'll have as much HP as it needs to give them the driving experience and performance balance they're looking for. No more, no less.
you guys keep talking like Mazda is going to or has EVER wanted the RX to appeal to the mass audience.
they don't
they won't
Um, false. Seems like you've forgotten most of the RX-cars Mazda has ever made.
That's exactly what they did and wanted with the R100, RX-2, RX-3, RX-4, REPU, CD and HB Cosmos, SA22C, FB, FC, and the SE3P.
All those are of pedestrian design (RX-8 has single-pot calipers!) and priced for the ordinary pedestrian populace.
Why the hell would they have made a four-door, four-seat RX (with available automatic ffs!) if they weren't trying to appeal to a mass audience?
The new RX isn't meant to lead the company in sales or profitability, it's a Halo car.
The last time they tried that, it very nearly killed the company. Little Mazda doesn't have the cash to burn on an unprofitable "halo" car.
Holy **** do I hope they learned their lesson. It sure seemed like they did.
But in the nearly impossible event they do come out with a 400 HP (or 300, or 200), $80,000 "halo" car I'll know they've completely forgotten or been overrun by teh stoopid.
Of course, I'll still buy one. Because
Last edited by wankelbolt; 09-02-2016 at 03:09 PM.
you guys keep talking like Mazda is going to or has EVER wanted the RX to appeal to the mass audience.
they don't
they won't
The people that will buy this car are car guys. The new RX isn't meant to lead the company in sales or profitability, it's a Halo car. A vehicle to make a statement on the road, not on some spec sheet or in a brochure.
It'll have as much HP as it needs to give them the driving experience and performance balance they're looking for. No more, no less.
I get the car guy part 100%. That's why the Alfa 4C exists, as does the Miata, BRZ, Boxster/Cayman, etc. By car guys, for car guys.
But Mazda is in the business to make money and is not blind to the need to be competitive. 'Driver Experience' cars are a risky proposition!
4C sales have cratered
Miata soldiers on, no one knows why
BRZ twins are on life support
Boxster/Cayman has the brand appeal
S2k is dead
Elise is dead
RX8 is dead
All while boring Mustang/Camaro/Vette/M3 etc sell in mass quantities.
At a Cayman price but without the premium brand, Mazda better have something very special to offer. The bar goes up every year. I betcha, if the RX is released in 2020, that means 400hp and 2750-3000# weight. Shall we wager a $20? I'll still be here
But Mazda is in the business to make money and is not blind to the need to be competitive. 'Driver Experience' cars are a risky proposition!
4C sales have cratered
Miata soldiers on, no one knows why
BRZ twins are on life support
Boxster/Cayman has the brand appeal
S2k is dead
Elise is dead
RX8 is dead
All while boring Mustang/Camaro/Vette/M3 etc sell in mass quantities.
At a Cayman price but without the premium brand, Mazda better have something very special to offer. The bar goes up every year. I betcha, if the RX is released in 2020, that means 400hp and 2750-3000# weight. Shall we wager a $20? I'll still be here
You are not paying attention to Mazda's history.
They have never built a car in the Pony Car market. They are not going to start now. So forget about 400 hp ANYTHING from them.
If they build a new sports car, look at the market they will decide to compete in.
It will either be the low end market, which contains the BRZ, the mid level market that contains the Nissan Z, or the very bottom of the high end sports car market, which is the BMW M2, Alfa 4C, or Cayman, Boxster.
Bottom end of market - ~200 hp. Very easy to achieve. Give you decent reliability, and not too hard of a struggle to meet emissions requirements.
Price range - $30k to $35k.
Mid level market - ~325 hp. Challenge for Mazda, as they have NEVER built a rotary engine to this power level before, and sold it on the market. Reliability and emissions are harder to meet.
Price range - $40k to $45k.
Bottom end of the high end market - 235 to 365 hp. This actually is an easier segment to build an engine for, because it is WAY closer to what they have done previously.
235 hp is very easy, emissions and reliability should be MUCH better than the Series I engine.
275 hp Mazda has previously done. Emissions should be way better than the end of the RX-7 days, along with reliability improvements. May not even need turbo this time.
300 hp is a stretch goal. Can they do it? Most likely. Can it meet reliability or emissions goals? Who knows.
Price range - $40k to $45k.
If they are building a car to compete against the 4C, then they can aim for 250 hp, and keep the weight around 2500 lbs. Just make a fixed top MX-5 chassis, and extend the frame a little bit for a smidge more room behind the front seats. Price range - $45k to $50k.
If they were building an M2 competitor, then they would aim at 300 hp, and pretty much you would have a new RX-8, with weight around the 2800 lbs mark. 4 seats, comfort, and high quality driving experience. Price range - $45k to $50k.
If they were aiming at the Base level Boxster and Cayman, then 275 hp is the target, 2 seat car, on a MX-5 chassis with more legroom, and most likely weight around 2700 lbs. Price range - $45k to $50k.
That's all they need to build to have a car that competes on paper with these 5 cars. Nothing more.
I know why. Millions of others do, too. The fact that you don't suggests you don't quite grasp the difference between a muscle car and a sports car. To a sports car enthusiast, handling and the way a car "feels" trump horsepower and quarter mile times. Which is why the RX-9 will be well regarded even if it has only 250 horses.
08-27-2016, 02:07 AM
