Battle of the 8's: RX-8 vs. Evo VIII
#51
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rabinado -
One thing to consider if you are planning on taking your new car to an autox is headroom for the helmet. The EVO has lots of headroom as compared with RX8 which is a bit tighter. Just something to consider.
Also, someone brought up clutch issues with the EVO. I've got 9k with no problems. The reason for the problems is that Mitsu designed the clutch as the weak point. The clutch actually has a restrictor that keeps the clutch from fully engaging for a split second. This keeps drivetrain shock down when doing a 6k clutch drop but at the expense of eating your clutch. If you drive the car normally, your clutch will last plenty long.
The biggest problem is the paint. By far the worst paint I've ever had. It's because of the paint that I have a hard time recommending the car. My wife has a Mazda 6 that we bought 2 months before the EVO, both are black, and her paint is awesome while mine was swirl city. I stress WAS because I've now learned how to wash and detail my car with the right products and techniques. This has helped but regardless the paint is terrible. Nothing hurts your pride in your car more than when it looks like crap.
One thing to consider if you are planning on taking your new car to an autox is headroom for the helmet. The EVO has lots of headroom as compared with RX8 which is a bit tighter. Just something to consider.
Also, someone brought up clutch issues with the EVO. I've got 9k with no problems. The reason for the problems is that Mitsu designed the clutch as the weak point. The clutch actually has a restrictor that keeps the clutch from fully engaging for a split second. This keeps drivetrain shock down when doing a 6k clutch drop but at the expense of eating your clutch. If you drive the car normally, your clutch will last plenty long.
The biggest problem is the paint. By far the worst paint I've ever had. It's because of the paint that I have a hard time recommending the car. My wife has a Mazda 6 that we bought 2 months before the EVO, both are black, and her paint is awesome while mine was swirl city. I stress WAS because I've now learned how to wash and detail my car with the right products and techniques. This has helped but regardless the paint is terrible. Nothing hurts your pride in your car more than when it looks like crap.
#52
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Originally posted by rabinabo
Ok, now who's making excuses? I can understand the fact that lap times will vary enormously depending on the driver. But "autox really doesn't show off the full potential of most cars..." Come on, it's a race with a start and a finish, cones to avoid, and with lots of curves, so it "doesn't show off the full potential"? It doesn't show the full potential of the engine because you mostly stay within the low gears as opposed to drag racing, but it DOES show the full potential of cars' handling capability (unlike drag racing which doesn't).
Ok, now who's making excuses? I can understand the fact that lap times will vary enormously depending on the driver. But "autox really doesn't show off the full potential of most cars..." Come on, it's a race with a start and a finish, cones to avoid, and with lots of curves, so it "doesn't show off the full potential"? It doesn't show the full potential of the engine because you mostly stay within the low gears as opposed to drag racing, but it DOES show the full potential of cars' handling capability (unlike drag racing which doesn't).
#53
I'm not worried about headroom, because I'm not that tall (5'7"). I also managed to fit into my zx2 even with a helmet for auto-x (although barely), and the rx-8 should be a little better (I don't want the sunroof).
I can understand the point about having the weak clutch. I've read all about the clutch restrictor before. What are typical mileages for other stock clutches anyways, as I've never owned a manual? My guess is that we'll have to wait some time to see if the evo clutch can last as long without being abused.
When I was checking out the Subaru forums, the complaints they had there about the evo was Mitsubishi's reputation for low build quality and unreliability. I thought maybe with the evo would be different, but the paint issues convince me otherwise.
The thing about the rx-8 that you can really measure is the amount of head-turning it generates along with the joy of revving an engine up to 9k rpm, which I haven't even mentioned yet.
I can understand the point about having the weak clutch. I've read all about the clutch restrictor before. What are typical mileages for other stock clutches anyways, as I've never owned a manual? My guess is that we'll have to wait some time to see if the evo clutch can last as long without being abused.
When I was checking out the Subaru forums, the complaints they had there about the evo was Mitsubishi's reputation for low build quality and unreliability. I thought maybe with the evo would be different, but the paint issues convince me otherwise.
The thing about the rx-8 that you can really measure is the amount of head-turning it generates along with the joy of revving an engine up to 9k rpm, which I haven't even mentioned yet.
#54
Originally posted by AbusiveWombat
rabinado -
One thing to consider if you are planning on taking your new car to an autox is headroom for the helmet. The EVO has lots of headroom as compared with RX8 which is a bit tighter. Just something to consider.
rabinado -
One thing to consider if you are planning on taking your new car to an autox is headroom for the helmet. The EVO has lots of headroom as compared with RX8 which is a bit tighter. Just something to consider.
Head room is a non issue
#55
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The EVO uses the 4g63 still right?
I really hope they have corrected that powerplant.
I hope the same for the rx8 as well.
One thing im happy about is with the eight lots of planning went into the improved powerpant Ive taken care of mine and so far its awsome.
The claimed problems with the car like flooding heat etc are just a normal part of this car and the engine. You must learn to respect this car and if you dont treat it well it will flood. Its a hot little engine by design. It also has huge potential as you already know.
Canzoomer stage 2 for 750 takes you to 45 to 55 hp just ecu. downside is you have to have midpipe but depending on your needs that may not be a downside. To get to about 260 270 whp will not be too hard a task even NA for the RX8. Im not sure about the possibility of 300 whp na but I think its feasable.
So I myslef dynoed 180 "whp" just three days ago at the dyno day at SC engineering add 50 hp for ecu stage 2 and 8 for mid pipe and your already at 238 whp. Not too shabby for a 3050 weight and only 2 mods.
So in conclusion I think we all have awsome cars, All have testy engines and although based on similar not so reliable engines us with seals and you all with the paper gaskets and other such complaints of the eclipse owners.
So far i love my car im sure as do you love yours in the end its what you want for your car and what your willing to do to get there.
I love NA, I love having a 9k redline, I love others underestimating us. I also love to suprise. I also like to give turboed cars a run for their money (sometimes hehe)! I also like long runs with friends to vegas. I will be able to do all of this and still look good what else is there to want!
Bottom line is
If you love your car as much as I do mine there is no better car.
We need to get a evo rx8 meet sometime to dispell some of the myths and misconceptions about our cars.
I really hope they have corrected that powerplant.
I hope the same for the rx8 as well.
One thing im happy about is with the eight lots of planning went into the improved powerpant Ive taken care of mine and so far its awsome.
The claimed problems with the car like flooding heat etc are just a normal part of this car and the engine. You must learn to respect this car and if you dont treat it well it will flood. Its a hot little engine by design. It also has huge potential as you already know.
Canzoomer stage 2 for 750 takes you to 45 to 55 hp just ecu. downside is you have to have midpipe but depending on your needs that may not be a downside. To get to about 260 270 whp will not be too hard a task even NA for the RX8. Im not sure about the possibility of 300 whp na but I think its feasable.
So I myslef dynoed 180 "whp" just three days ago at the dyno day at SC engineering add 50 hp for ecu stage 2 and 8 for mid pipe and your already at 238 whp. Not too shabby for a 3050 weight and only 2 mods.
So in conclusion I think we all have awsome cars, All have testy engines and although based on similar not so reliable engines us with seals and you all with the paper gaskets and other such complaints of the eclipse owners.
So far i love my car im sure as do you love yours in the end its what you want for your car and what your willing to do to get there.
I love NA, I love having a 9k redline, I love others underestimating us. I also love to suprise. I also like to give turboed cars a run for their money (sometimes hehe)! I also like long runs with friends to vegas. I will be able to do all of this and still look good what else is there to want!
Bottom line is
If you love your car as much as I do mine there is no better car.
We need to get a evo rx8 meet sometime to dispell some of the myths and misconceptions about our cars.
#56
Actually, from the auto-x results that I've seen the viper will still usually beat the Miatas (but not by much). I totally agree with you though. The Miata may be able to beat a viper on the right track, but what does that prove?
Auto-x still measures how well a car handles in slow turns, so how are any other tracks any more real? Sure, take both cars to a fast track, and the Miata driver will have his *** handed back bbq'ed on a stick. It's just two different aspects of performance. The Viper would probably beat a Lotus Elise on one of your "real" tracks also (not sure about it though), but does that make the Elise kick any less ***? Certainly not. I'll take an Elise over a Viper any day. There are some things that the smaller cars are just better at than the big dogs.
I'll bring up another point. It's more likely that you will be able to enjoy your $25k worth of Miata performance on regular streets than you have of getting $60k worth of Viper performance on regular streets. That is, if you worry about things like getting your suspended.
Auto-x still measures how well a car handles in slow turns, so how are any other tracks any more real? Sure, take both cars to a fast track, and the Miata driver will have his *** handed back bbq'ed on a stick. It's just two different aspects of performance. The Viper would probably beat a Lotus Elise on one of your "real" tracks also (not sure about it though), but does that make the Elise kick any less ***? Certainly not. I'll take an Elise over a Viper any day. There are some things that the smaller cars are just better at than the big dogs.
I'll bring up another point. It's more likely that you will be able to enjoy your $25k worth of Miata performance on regular streets than you have of getting $60k worth of Viper performance on regular streets. That is, if you worry about things like getting your suspended.
#58
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Autox is great fun, but I get the feeling many of the people on this thread have never done it. The dynamics are very different from a real race track, and real racing will never ever involve using one gear for the entire track, which is often the case on an autox course. Ones second gear ratio is as big a factor as any on an autox course, sure autox is a decent measure for a car but there are far far better.
This is why I could care less about the guy in his stock Miata beating me at autox and just focus on other cars in my class. Because I know that stock Miata won't beat me in any other format.
This is why I could care less about the guy in his stock Miata beating me at autox and just focus on other cars in my class. Because I know that stock Miata won't beat me in any other format.
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Originally posted by rabinabo
I second the evo-rx8 meet idea. There's too much hate going on. Where's the love?
I second the evo-rx8 meet idea. There's too much hate going on. Where's the love?
I love imports
350z,evo ,g35, rx8, m3, acura,honda,toyota,
I love imports
I never understood the chevy vs ford
or mustang vs camaro ---american car rivals
there is alot of hate on this site
#60
Ok, someone give me an example of a "real" race track that average joes can drive at, or an organization that allows average joes to participate in "real" racing.
Do you mean time trials? I guarantee that there are far fewer people that have driven time trials as opposed to solo2 auto-x. I've never done it for example, but I'll probably try it eventually. Auto-x, even if you don't count it as real racing, is the most accessible racing around to participate in.
So, seriously, who does this "real" racing? Only professional drivers? I don't understand what you mean exactly.
Do you mean time trials? I guarantee that there are far fewer people that have driven time trials as opposed to solo2 auto-x. I've never done it for example, but I'll probably try it eventually. Auto-x, even if you don't count it as real racing, is the most accessible racing around to participate in.
So, seriously, who does this "real" racing? Only professional drivers? I don't understand what you mean exactly.
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Originally posted by rabinabo
Ok, someone give me an example of a "real" race track that average joes can drive at, or an organization that allows average joes to participate in "real" racing.
Do you mean time trials? I guarantee that there are far fewer people that have driven time trials as opposed to solo2 auto-x. I've never done it for example, but I'll probably try it eventually. Auto-x, even if you don't count it as real racing, is the most accessible racing around to participate in.
So, seriously, who does this "real" racing? Only professional drivers? I don't understand what you mean exactly.
Ok, someone give me an example of a "real" race track that average joes can drive at, or an organization that allows average joes to participate in "real" racing.
Do you mean time trials? I guarantee that there are far fewer people that have driven time trials as opposed to solo2 auto-x. I've never done it for example, but I'll probably try it eventually. Auto-x, even if you don't count it as real racing, is the most accessible racing around to participate in.
So, seriously, who does this "real" racing? Only professional drivers? I don't understand what you mean exactly.
Ike
#62
Originally posted by rabinabo
Yeah, living here does tend to spoil you. Although I'll most likely be moving to the east coast for my next job, which will mean worse weather and no good mexican food, but the job will allow me to buy that new car
The zx2 has a total of 132 hp (I think), so yeah, the evo would have twice the power with an extra axle to drive It is awefully tempting I'll admit, and for a while I was formulating a plan to modify my evo with a Shiv Stage 1 and more Regardless I'm going to try to take a test drive in the Evo to have an informed opinion.
However, check out the comparison in dimensions between the zx2, 8, and evo (in inches:
length 175.2 174.3 178.5
height 52.3 52.8 57.1
width 67.4 69.7 69.7
wheel base 98.4 106.4 103.3
curb weight 2464 3000? 3263
I like that the 8 keeps the roofline almost as high as my zx2. The evo is almost 5 inches taller. Now look at the length vs wheelbase. The 8 is the shortest, yet has much longer wheel base (ok, not so much more than the evo). Amazingly, the 8 has much more room in the back compared to my zx2. That's one of the main reasons I think the rx-8 is more complete package.
Yeah, living here does tend to spoil you. Although I'll most likely be moving to the east coast for my next job, which will mean worse weather and no good mexican food, but the job will allow me to buy that new car
The zx2 has a total of 132 hp (I think), so yeah, the evo would have twice the power with an extra axle to drive It is awefully tempting I'll admit, and for a while I was formulating a plan to modify my evo with a Shiv Stage 1 and more Regardless I'm going to try to take a test drive in the Evo to have an informed opinion.
However, check out the comparison in dimensions between the zx2, 8, and evo (in inches:
length 175.2 174.3 178.5
height 52.3 52.8 57.1
width 67.4 69.7 69.7
wheel base 98.4 106.4 103.3
curb weight 2464 3000? 3263
I like that the 8 keeps the roofline almost as high as my zx2. The evo is almost 5 inches taller. Now look at the length vs wheelbase. The 8 is the shortest, yet has much longer wheel base (ok, not so much more than the evo). Amazingly, the 8 has much more room in the back compared to my zx2. That's one of the main reasons I think the rx-8 is more complete package.
#63
Originally posted by rabinabo
I'm actually interested in your thoughts about one particular performance number for the rx-8, the lateral g's. I thought that the 8's numbers were much smaller than the evo, but now that I check with R&T, they both got .88g. Do you guys have different numbers that have been reported? I wonder how many g's the 8 can handle with stiffer suspension, like jic coilovers and racing beat sway bars, etc.?
I'm actually interested in your thoughts about one particular performance number for the rx-8, the lateral g's. I thought that the 8's numbers were much smaller than the evo, but now that I check with R&T, they both got .88g. Do you guys have different numbers that have been reported? I wonder how many g's the 8 can handle with stiffer suspension, like jic coilovers and racing beat sway bars, etc.?
Here is a really comparison of the EVO VII (with AYC and ACD) to other high-end sports cars in regards to handling.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=5
#64
Originally posted by rabinabo
When I was checking out the Subaru forums, the complaints they had there about the evo was Mitsubishi's reputation for low build quality and unreliability. I thought maybe with the evo would be different, but the paint issues convince me otherwise.
The thing about the rx-8 that you can really measure is the amount of head-turning it generates along with the joy of revving an engine up to 9k rpm, which I haven't even mentioned yet.
When I was checking out the Subaru forums, the complaints they had there about the evo was Mitsubishi's reputation for low build quality and unreliability. I thought maybe with the evo would be different, but the paint issues convince me otherwise.
The thing about the rx-8 that you can really measure is the amount of head-turning it generates along with the joy of revving an engine up to 9k rpm, which I haven't even mentioned yet.
#65
Originally posted by rabinabo
When I was checking out the Subaru forums, the complaints they had there about the evo was Mitsubishi's reputation for low build quality and unreliability. I thought maybe with the evo would be different, but the paint issues convince me otherwise.
The thing about the rx-8 that you can really measure is the amount of head-turning it generates along with the joy of revving an engine up to 9k rpm, which I haven't even mentioned yet.
When I was checking out the Subaru forums, the complaints they had there about the evo was Mitsubishi's reputation for low build quality and unreliability. I thought maybe with the evo would be different, but the paint issues convince me otherwise.
The thing about the rx-8 that you can really measure is the amount of head-turning it generates along with the joy of revving an engine up to 9k rpm, which I haven't even mentioned yet.
#66
Originally posted by zerohour
The EVO uses the 4g63 still right?
I really hope they have corrected that powerplant.
The EVO uses the 4g63 still right?
I really hope they have corrected that powerplant.
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Originally posted by revhappy
I'm assuming you are referring to the infamous crankwall problem of the DSM (early Eclipses, Talon's, Laser's, etc.). Most of those problems related to the US production, but the 4G63 in the EVO is solid (with all the issues worked out) and has been so for about 10 years in other parts of the world.
I'm assuming you are referring to the infamous crankwall problem of the DSM (early Eclipses, Talon's, Laser's, etc.). Most of those problems related to the US production, but the 4G63 in the EVO is solid (with all the issues worked out) and has been so for about 10 years in other parts of the world.
Check the head gasket you might be able to make some easy power by switching out the stock paper on if its still the same with a much better head gasket.
Hell cheap power too.
Thanks for the reply.
#68
Originally posted by zerohour
That is very very good.
Check the head gasket you might be able to make some easy power by switching out the stock paper on if its still the same with a much better head gasket.
Hell cheap power too.
Thanks for the reply.
That is very very good.
Check the head gasket you might be able to make some easy power by switching out the stock paper on if its still the same with a much better head gasket.
Hell cheap power too.
Thanks for the reply.
#69
The EVO comes with some nice sticky tires from the factory too. That definitely helps with magazine test numbers for slalom and lateral acceleration. Not to take away anything from the suspension, etc. but tires do make the biggest difference.
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Originally posted by O.R.A.
The EVO comes with some nice sticky tires from the factory too. That definitely helps with magazine test numbers for slalom and lateral acceleration. Not to take away anything from the suspension, etc. but tires do make the biggest difference.
The EVO comes with some nice sticky tires from the factory too. That definitely helps with magazine test numbers for slalom and lateral acceleration. Not to take away anything from the suspension, etc. but tires do make the biggest difference.
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Originally posted by O.R.A.
The EVO comes with some nice sticky tires from the factory too. That definitely helps with magazine test numbers for slalom and lateral acceleration. Not to take away anything from the suspension, etc. but tires do make the biggest difference.
The EVO comes with some nice sticky tires from the factory too. That definitely helps with magazine test numbers for slalom and lateral acceleration. Not to take away anything from the suspension, etc. but tires do make the biggest difference.
#72
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Originally posted by IkeWRX
This is why I could care less about the guy in his stock Miata beating me at autox and just focus on other cars in my class. Because I know that stock Miata won't beat me in any other format.
This is why I could care less about the guy in his stock Miata beating me at autox and just focus on other cars in my class. Because I know that stock Miata won't beat me in any other format.
Don't take that as a rip... I've driven and like the WRX too.
But in a road-racing format (like the Evo-RX-8 TopGear test) HP is a *huge* factor.
#73
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Well, my $3000 shifter kart would kill all of these cars at an autocross.
And my dad can beat up your dad!
:D
Seriously, to the point of the thread... the more usable (and greater) power of the Evo will whoop the RX-8 on any road course.
But the extra couple hundred pounds that the Evo carries will definitely hurt it at the autocross course, in addition to the RX-8's better balance.
So, IMHO... autocross = RX-8; road course = Evo.
And my dad can beat up your dad!
:D
Seriously, to the point of the thread... the more usable (and greater) power of the Evo will whoop the RX-8 on any road course.
But the extra couple hundred pounds that the Evo carries will definitely hurt it at the autocross course, in addition to the RX-8's better balance.
So, IMHO... autocross = RX-8; road course = Evo.
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Originally posted by racerdave
Well, IMHO it takes more skill to get that stock Miata around the course faster than to have the WRX go faster "in any other format." Then it's just a pure horsepower advantage... not much skill involved there.
Don't take that as a rip... I've driven and like the WRX too.
But in a road-racing format (like the Evo-RX-8 TopGear test) HP is a *huge* factor.
Well, IMHO it takes more skill to get that stock Miata around the course faster than to have the WRX go faster "in any other format." Then it's just a pure horsepower advantage... not much skill involved there.
Don't take that as a rip... I've driven and like the WRX too.
But in a road-racing format (like the Evo-RX-8 TopGear test) HP is a *huge* factor.
Have you ever driven the WRX on an autox track in stock form? You bog and it's a nightmare waiting for it to spool up again, the understeer in stock form is also a bitch on those tight little switchbacks. The reason why you don't see many WRXs running in DS is because it's almost impossible to keep it in the sweet spot or close to it due to the situation of the cats. The Miata from everything I've seen it much easier to drive fast around an autox track.
#75
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Originally posted by IkeWRX
Have you ever driven the WRX on an autox track in stock form?
Have you ever driven the WRX on an autox track in stock form?
Hmm... I probably didn't word that post right.
The general point is that the better chassis and lighter car will be faster on an autocross course... which is why many top CS Miata's are so quick.
But give them some straights and the boosted cars will devour them.