2013 Scion FR-S
06-04-2012, 10:49 AM
#26
Just going to point out here that this statement isn't accurate. It has superior fuel economy, superior size for anyone that prefers smaller cars, and it even has a piston engine for those people that find the rotary to be the biggest detractor of the 8.
Insisting that no one would want a given car is an exercise in futility. After all, people bought cars like the Aztec, the Smart ForTwo, etc...
Every single car ever made has points that will make it appealing to SOMEONE. They don't need to appeal to EVERYONE. In fact, no car ever made has appealed to 100% of the population. That the FR-S / BRZ would find people here that would consider it seriously should not come as a surprise because it shares so much in common with the 8.
"Upgrades" and "downgrades" are entirely subjective to the point of view of the person buying. And if you aren't the one buying for whichever reason is your particular flavor, bashing someone for having a situation in life and/or preferences that would make it appealing is doing quite an injustice to the car community as a whole. What makes the car enthusiast community so great is it's differences. Do you really wish everyone to have the same opinion that you do? It's not only not a reality, but would be quite unpleasant to have come true.
Insisting that no one would want a given car is an exercise in futility. After all, people bought cars like the Aztec, the Smart ForTwo, etc...
Every single car ever made has points that will make it appealing to SOMEONE. They don't need to appeal to EVERYONE. In fact, no car ever made has appealed to 100% of the population. That the FR-S / BRZ would find people here that would consider it seriously should not come as a surprise because it shares so much in common with the 8.
"Upgrades" and "downgrades" are entirely subjective to the point of view of the person buying. And if you aren't the one buying for whichever reason is your particular flavor, bashing someone for having a situation in life and/or preferences that would make it appealing is doing quite an injustice to the car community as a whole. What makes the car enthusiast community so great is it's differences. Do you really wish everyone to have the same opinion that you do? It's not only not a reality, but would be quite unpleasant to have come true.
06-04-2012, 10:54 AM
#27
Registered
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 16,684
Likes: 0
Received 240 Likes
on
110 Posts
You don't really have to speak in universals.
For example, the BRZ was on my list as a potential to buy for a daily. I need a more fuel efficient daily than my 8 for my new 76 mile 1-way commute, and getting to 30mpg is a 50% mileage improvement. But I am unwilling to give up sharp handling for the soul numbing of an actual econo box. The BRZ then easily fits that criteria. The gas savings I need without sacrificing much of what I love of the 8.
On my list it came in just behind a new Miata, but purely from a perspective of known history. I can expect no problems from a new Miata, but I can expect first-year problems from a BRZ.
At no point have I suggested that "all us RX8 types would want to drop our spark plugs and go run to this". Simply putting forth reasons why someone of our vehicle preferences WOULD have to get an FR-S / BRZ. I don't class all of us in the same circumstances, environment, or inclination, and neither should you.
For example, the BRZ was on my list as a potential to buy for a daily. I need a more fuel efficient daily than my 8 for my new 76 mile 1-way commute, and getting to 30mpg is a 50% mileage improvement. But I am unwilling to give up sharp handling for the soul numbing of an actual econo box. The BRZ then easily fits that criteria. The gas savings I need without sacrificing much of what I love of the 8.
On my list it came in just behind a new Miata, but purely from a perspective of known history. I can expect no problems from a new Miata, but I can expect first-year problems from a BRZ.
At no point have I suggested that "all us RX8 types would want to drop our spark plugs and go run to this". Simply putting forth reasons why someone of our vehicle preferences WOULD have to get an FR-S / BRZ. I don't class all of us in the same circumstances, environment, or inclination, and neither should you.
06-04-2012, 11:23 AM
#28
No but the problem still exists that I have read online that this car is a superior car to the RX8 created by all of that hype. All the points for your argument could be used to "insert car name here" and then list the reasons. If you feel I was wrong by stating my opinion, than I apologize, but I am not going to retract what I stated.
06-04-2012, 11:31 AM
#29
Registered
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 16,684
Likes: 0
Received 240 Likes
on
110 Posts
I wouldn't expect you to retract your statement. Your opinion is your own, and I am not trying to change it at all. I do agree that as far as pure performance (acceleration, top speed, handling), the FR-S / BRZ is NOT superior to the RX-8. However, that doesn't mean that "They really don't offer anything over what you already have." is correct, because they DO offer quite a bit over the RX-8.
Yes, my argument could apply to any car, and that is precisely my point. People buy cars for many many reasons, and usually for reasons that you won't agree with, and even performance oriented cars are purchased for reasons other than their performance.
I take no objection to you disliking the FR-S / BRZ. None at all. I also take no objection to your dislike of the hype around the car. I certainly believe it has been over-hyped as well. But that doesn't change the car's points of value, it only changes the points of value for the people doing the reviews. I like the aspect of the hype that helps to make people more aware that "fun cars can indeed be driven by mundane people!" but in many cases it has indeed been taken ridiculously far.
I only take objection to the appearance of your post that assumes that everyone else here must have your opinion as well, and that you should be the one to pick and choose their car for them.
Yes, my argument could apply to any car, and that is precisely my point. People buy cars for many many reasons, and usually for reasons that you won't agree with, and even performance oriented cars are purchased for reasons other than their performance.
I take no objection to you disliking the FR-S / BRZ. None at all. I also take no objection to your dislike of the hype around the car. I certainly believe it has been over-hyped as well. But that doesn't change the car's points of value, it only changes the points of value for the people doing the reviews. I like the aspect of the hype that helps to make people more aware that "fun cars can indeed be driven by mundane people!" but in many cases it has indeed been taken ridiculously far.
I only take objection to the appearance of your post that assumes that everyone else here must have your opinion as well, and that you should be the one to pick and choose their car for them.
Last edited by RIWWP; 06-04-2012 at 11:41 AM.
06-04-2012, 11:54 AM
#30
Just go buy one then, you win.
https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/test-drove-fr-s-today-234037/
https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/test-drove-fr-s-today-234037/
06-04-2012, 11:56 AM
#31
Registered
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 16,684
Likes: 0
Received 240 Likes
on
110 Posts
I am often misunderstood.
No, I will not be buying one. I was just refuting your argument that there is no reason for an RX-8 owner to buy one. It is 3rd on my list, not 1st.
06-04-2012, 12:21 PM
#33
Registered
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 16,684
Likes: 0
Received 240 Likes
on
110 Posts
But the biggest dislike about the BRZ is the engine. But then, that's the biggest thing to make me dislike the choice of a 2012 or 2009 Miata (#2) as well. Between the two, it's basically +33 hp and unknown first year issues vs drop top and a proven engine and chassis. The Miata edges it out just barely to me.
Instead though, I'm doing another engine replacement in my 99 Miata (which has caused me no end of issues) to use as a daily until the diesel CX-5 arrives, and then the economy of that is by far a massive advantage while still being fun enough for a daily, and it's towing capacity allows me to trailer the Miata or the 8 to the track for events.
Instead though, I'm doing another engine replacement in my 99 Miata (which has caused me no end of issues) to use as a daily until the diesel CX-5 arrives, and then the economy of that is by far a massive advantage while still being fun enough for a daily, and it's towing capacity allows me to trailer the Miata or the 8 to the track for events.
06-04-2012, 12:46 PM
#34
Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why IS it being worshipped so much? I don't think I've ever read a negative review the car. Articles occasionally mention a concern or two, but quickly follow up with, "But that's OK, because..." almost as if they're afraid the Thought Police are going to show up and jail them for their blasphemy.
Reviews use terms like "The BRZ is a signifcant event," and I've seen reviewers say it's been the highlight of their career.
Am I missing something? It's a perfectly nice car, but a "signifcant event?" I'm almost afraid to drive one, it's as if anyone who gets near it is assimilated by the BRZ borg mind, lol.
Reviews use terms like "The BRZ is a signifcant event," and I've seen reviewers say it's been the highlight of their career.
Am I missing something? It's a perfectly nice car, but a "signifcant event?" I'm almost afraid to drive one, it's as if anyone who gets near it is assimilated by the BRZ borg mind, lol.
06-04-2012, 01:21 PM
#35
Registered
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 16,684
Likes: 0
Received 240 Likes
on
110 Posts
It's because of how it's approaching performance that is accessible to "normal" people.
If you look at most affordable cars which are marketed as "for performance", most of them dump the cost of the vehicle into the engine. In order for there to be a 300 - 400 hp car that is less than $30,000 in the "affordable" range, it HAS to make cost sacrifices in other areas. Since interior quality and features sell far more effectively than suspension points which promote good handling, it is usually the suspension which gets the redheaded stepchild treatment. This is where you get muscle cars. Any there are tons of them. All the time.
What happens when you add a good suspension and excellent handling attributes to a muscle car? You quickly leave the "affordable" range, and nudge closer to supercar class.
If someone buys a car for it's engine, they aren't going to dump lots of money into the engine. It's just against the nature of things. You will spend far more for incremental improvement on the suspension than you will on the engine.
Subaru / Toyota approached it from the other side. "If people are going to dump money into the engine, and they undoubtably will, then lets start with a "weaker" engine, but a better chassis".
What you have then is a car where it doesn't need much improvement in the suspension. It's capable out of the box. But the engine is what took the cost hit to keep it affordable. And they are ok with that, because they know that people will boost them, chip them, reflash them, etc... in the name of more power.
They could have also made it 300hp. But if they did they would either have to kill the suspension to keep it affordable (killing the concept completely), or increase the price out of the affordability range.
The journalists are generally only "going nuts" when taken as an aggregate. Any single review reads very much like an RX-8's review, and is reasonable in it's approach. The point of objection I tend to have is when they forget that light good handling cars did actually exist before.
If you look at most affordable cars which are marketed as "for performance", most of them dump the cost of the vehicle into the engine. In order for there to be a 300 - 400 hp car that is less than $30,000 in the "affordable" range, it HAS to make cost sacrifices in other areas. Since interior quality and features sell far more effectively than suspension points which promote good handling, it is usually the suspension which gets the redheaded stepchild treatment. This is where you get muscle cars. Any there are tons of them. All the time.
What happens when you add a good suspension and excellent handling attributes to a muscle car? You quickly leave the "affordable" range, and nudge closer to supercar class.
If someone buys a car for it's engine, they aren't going to dump lots of money into the engine. It's just against the nature of things. You will spend far more for incremental improvement on the suspension than you will on the engine.
Subaru / Toyota approached it from the other side. "If people are going to dump money into the engine, and they undoubtably will, then lets start with a "weaker" engine, but a better chassis".
What you have then is a car where it doesn't need much improvement in the suspension. It's capable out of the box. But the engine is what took the cost hit to keep it affordable. And they are ok with that, because they know that people will boost them, chip them, reflash them, etc... in the name of more power.
They could have also made it 300hp. But if they did they would either have to kill the suspension to keep it affordable (killing the concept completely), or increase the price out of the affordability range.
The journalists are generally only "going nuts" when taken as an aggregate. Any single review reads very much like an RX-8's review, and is reasonable in it's approach. The point of objection I tend to have is when they forget that light good handling cars did actually exist before.
06-04-2012, 01:21 PM
#36
I Heart 2nd Gear Racing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's a lot like a RX8 except it's lighter and gets pretty good gas mileage. I like it.
It's a significant car because ... name all of the sports coupes with rear wheel drive costing significantly less than 30k.
1) Hyundai Genesis Coupe
2) Scion FRS
3) Subaru BRZ
4) Mustang
5) Camaro
6) Challenger
I felt compelled to list the last three even though many would not consider them in the same class.
It's a significant car because ... name all of the sports coupes with rear wheel drive costing significantly less than 30k.
1) Hyundai Genesis Coupe
2) Scion FRS
3) Subaru BRZ
4) Mustang
5) Camaro
6) Challenger
I felt compelled to list the last three even though many would not consider them in the same class.
06-04-2012, 02:19 PM
#38
2008 40th Anniversary
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem I have with the media regarding the BRZFRS, is that they all fail to mention that Mazda did this car better 8 years ago...
affordable RWD sports coupe that stresses handling/balance over raw speed...
affordable RWD sports coupe that stresses handling/balance over raw speed...
06-04-2012, 08:16 PM
#41
Registered
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sheboygan Falls, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I would tend to agree. I truly believe the MPG issue was the downfall of the RX-8 and if it got near 30 HWY like the Toyobaru it would still be in production. Other than MPG, does the BRZ really offer anything superior to the 8?
06-04-2012, 08:55 PM
#42
Registered
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Performance wise no. But it is in production and has one of the largest car companies backing it. I don't understand the hate towards the car, yes the media is over hyping the car, but this cars success could mean Mazda will continue the development of a sporty car. But what happens if Mazda would not be able to make a new small sports car besides the Miata, this means that the BRZ and FRS may be the only cars available to people who like the small sporty coupes with a focus on handling and driver feel. So really even if you don't like the car you want it to succeed so other car companies jump in a start making or continue (Mazda) making their own cheaper drivers cars.
06-04-2012, 09:11 PM
#43
06-04-2012, 09:37 PM
#44
I think a lot of people are a bit biased towards hating the BRZ/FR-S as it's performance seemed targeted at the 8, right after the 8 was removed from production, especially for it being a RWD 2+2 and even though it's slower than the 8 in every possible way, is somehow not being criticized for having a higher 0-60 time even though it was manufactured 10 years after the 8, around the same price and having an engine design that's been in production for over a century. The car is extremely over-hyped, even on facebook, I always see posts about and how it's the most revolutionary piece of machinery, especially because it has a "lower center of gravity than a Ferrari" so now all the F&F Tokyo Drift loving guys have an affordable car to ruin with mad bragging rights.
That being said, I think the car isn't bad and others should appreciate other cars, there are other nice cars out there that aren't 8's.
That being said, I think the car isn't bad and others should appreciate other cars, there are other nice cars out there that aren't 8's.
06-04-2012, 09:55 PM
#45
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was thinking about getting a FRS/BRZ and I saw both of them in preson. They are nice but to me the RX-8 is the better chioce I have always loved that body stlye of the RX-8 I own a lexus IS 250 07. I've been looking on the web for a used 8 it will go down as one of the greatest sports cars in history and it still looks great.
06-04-2012, 10:09 PM
#46
Registered
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sheboygan Falls, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Performance wise no. But it is in production and has one of the largest car companies backing it. I don't understand the hate towards the car, yes the media is over hyping the car, but this cars success could mean Mazda will continue the development of a sporty car. But what happens if Mazda would not be able to make a new small sports car besides the Miata, this means that the BRZ and FRS may be the only cars available to people who like the small sporty coupes with a focus on handling and driver feel. So really even if you don't like the car you want it to succeed so other car companies jump in a start making or continue (Mazda) making their own cheaper drivers cars.
06-05-2012, 06:51 AM
#48
It's a lot like a RX8 except it's lighter and gets pretty good gas mileage. I like it.
It's a significant car because ... name all of the sports coupes with rear wheel drive costing significantly less than 30k.
1) Hyundai Genesis Coupe
2) Scion FRS
3) Subaru BRZ
4) Mustang
5) Camaro
6) Challenger
I felt compelled to list the last three even though many would not consider them in the same class.
It's a significant car because ... name all of the sports coupes with rear wheel drive costing significantly less than 30k.
1) Hyundai Genesis Coupe
2) Scion FRS
3) Subaru BRZ
4) Mustang
5) Camaro
6) Challenger
I felt compelled to list the last three even though many would not consider them in the same class.
06-05-2012, 07:34 AM
#49
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Rememebr the last big weather event on TV where you live? It's nearly like they're talking 'end of the world' stuff. Then it comes and goes, and generally, it's not all that...compared to what they're talking about coming NEXT, and it starts all over again!
Remember the last time you saw a really, really REALLY beautiful girl?I generally am not thinking at that point, but if there was a god, SHE is reason enough to believe! Has to be the most beautiful girl in the world ... er... then I look around and see another one...oh no ... now SHES the most beautiful and on and on.
Ever read a review on a new or upcoming car that is bound to bring the automobile world to its knees, make it rethink the concept of <insert whatever>? It's named the "Best <insert platitude> Car Ever". Couple years down the er..ah..'road', reviewers are making excuses for its failings, comparing it to 'yesterdays technology' and calling it "venerable, but lacking"? Me too.
Just now the FRS/BRZ will have its day, being the crowning jewel in automotivedom.... but before long the siren song of 'new model <insert name>' will serenade every car journalist and editor to new heights of verbal and written insanity, while the inevitable comparisons with the reining status quo cars will place ithem silently and convincingly where they TRULY belong.
My memory is fading, but it seems to me the RX-8 has gone thru those stages itself, and now is finding its own place in automotive history. Time will (continue) to tell
Remember the last time you saw a really, really REALLY beautiful girl?I generally am not thinking at that point, but if there was a god, SHE is reason enough to believe! Has to be the most beautiful girl in the world ... er... then I look around and see another one...oh no ... now SHES the most beautiful and on and on.
Ever read a review on a new or upcoming car that is bound to bring the automobile world to its knees, make it rethink the concept of <insert whatever>? It's named the "Best <insert platitude> Car Ever". Couple years down the er..ah..'road', reviewers are making excuses for its failings, comparing it to 'yesterdays technology' and calling it "venerable, but lacking"? Me too.
Just now the FRS/BRZ will have its day, being the crowning jewel in automotivedom.... but before long the siren song of 'new model <insert name>' will serenade every car journalist and editor to new heights of verbal and written insanity, while the inevitable comparisons with the reining status quo cars will place ithem silently and convincingly where they TRULY belong.
My memory is fading, but it seems to me the RX-8 has gone thru those stages itself, and now is finding its own place in automotive history. Time will (continue) to tell
Last edited by Spin9k; 06-05-2012 at 07:37 AM.
