MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Unfortunately, because of the way regulation and subsidy works in the oil industry, if demand came to an absolute halt - everyone in America stopped using gasoline - the only people that would feel the effect would be the independent filling station owners.
The oil companies are completely immune to S&D.
They will just adjust the price in other markets to cover their bottom line and then renegotiate their supply cost and futures to ultimately increase their profit margin.

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

I was driving a 682WHP 427 supercharged mustang when the gas prices hit 4.40cents +/- during the last price hike. Getting around 9mpg on my average commute. We survived it the first time, and keep in mind that they are raising minimum wage and ALL salaries are supposed to see about a .15c an hour increase before then.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

YOU survived it the first time. Quite a few people did not.

Who are "they" and what about those who aren't on salary and perhaps those who have slim profit margins directly tied to the cost of transportation?

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

I would have to find the article I read, but I did read one on wages being bumped this year, and the projected average.

You can write off fuel charges on taxes and get some of your money back. If you know how to set your taxes up right then you can also not have to wait till the end of the year. This year my taxes are supposed to be within 100 dollars of breaking even. Just take the time to do a little research and set your finances up correctly. I recommend everyone take a financing class, even if its through a community college as a one semester night course.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Wow. You are wildly fiscally optimistic. Bravo.
Unfortunately, for many of us, it isn't a problem of strategy or deduction.
And some of us don't earn wages, so any "bump" will not affect us.

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

I understand your money is based on sales. But I also know that when prices go up that affect fuel, ultimately its us that end up paying more. Groceries go up, shipping goes up. Usually the seller just makes the change in the prices, and us consumers loose all our money again:P

NErx8

This isn't a problem for people who have jobs that pay well and few expenses in comparison. My wife and I are a couple of "dinks" (dual income, no kids) as her aunt likes to call us. I certainly will not like to spend over $5 a gallon for gas but I'm not going to have to decide between filling up and getting something to eat.

I have a good friend making minimum wage here in MA at $8 an hour. He has 2 young children to take care of an his wife works as a waitress. They barely make it right now. It's going to really screw over people in their position. $5.00 a gallon gas is also terrible for shipping things across the country in trucks. Petroleum is also a component in a lot more than gasoline for cars as well. That roof you need to put on your house? Yeah that just jumped up a **** ton of money as well.

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

The 5$ a gallon was a guess that if you read the article states might happen, but they feel is highly unlikely as well. so all this is speculation at this point.

77mjd

Even $4 gas will cause a ton more hurt this time around considering 10% unemployment...so even in a best case scenario, this time around you have 5% more people unemployed than the last time it hit $4, which means at least 5% more people with way less money to spend on food and shelter, much less gasoline and all the other prices that rise because of it so if things start to really tank again you gotta believe it will be much worse than last time.

SlickRick51586

I'm going to bite, coming from someone talking about open mindedness this is an ignorant statement.


Back on topic,
I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. If this happens, I think it will push the US towards cars with better fuel economy. The last price hike was a signal, hopefully the next will be the death of the SUV (last time was only a culling, lol). Finally, you will have to pay to play....

Topgear UK has mentioned the death of gasoline sports car before. We will all end up driving around our economic cars cars, only to pull out our gas guzzlers for the weekend.

lateralus

iTrader: (1)

Except we don't have a replacement for the SUV. While there are a lot of people driving around in ridiculously large SUVs for no reason, there are also the people who drive large vehicles because they actually need large vehicles for one reason or another. There are plenty of people who drive big gas guzzling trucks/SUVs because they need them to move around the equipment that they use to make their living...

Oh well.... Guess I better go ahead and start saving up for a Tesla...

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

Or another national boycott day will happen like last time where the oil industry lost millions. Its not an accident as to why the gas prices fell again.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...-profits_N.htm

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I think you misread this (and probably a bunch of other stuff).
First of all, the "boycott" never really materialized.
Second, a "boycott" would have hurt the retailers. What the article you linked said was that, a a response to declining gas prices, the retailer's profit went up. Well, duh.

I think you might misunderstand the cause and effect relationship there.

bse50

I'm not sure I agree with the guys saying that a SUV may be needed. Go google "fiat ducato" and see for yourself.
On the other hand most of the americans are afraid about gas prices because of another issue, american engines.
Your average displacement is way higher than it needs to be and big engines aren't as efficient as smaller ones.

I too agree that boycotting would be useless and I would like to add another reason to the ones that Jeff cleverly pointed out:
Even the retailers buy today to sell tomorrow. Selling the day after tomorrow would only mean an increase in stock from their part, thus higher prices.
What's fun is that in Italy we often see strikes being organized by the gas station owners and workers!

DocBeech

iTrader: (1)

nah it was two different subjects. one on why raising gas prices is a bad idea, and the second on boycotting fuel for a day and the effect it has. I was just in a hurry and didn't have time to seperate it out since a buddy of mine is being evicted over something stupid, I had to hurry over to help. Its an illegal eviction but we will have to fight that later, any how thats way off topic.

What I was getting at though is how raising gas prices is far from productive for these guys. On a second note people will probably get together and do a second boycott. I was in cali for the last one and they even went so far as that truck drivers were parking semis in the way on the border so no one could cross. They didn't refuel stations. People didn't fuel up, some found alternative ways to work, others just called in. I remember how big a deal they made out of it in socal. That was just a one day deal too, imagine if they decided to do a 3 day rally. I wasn't always happy to be living in cali but I will give them this. When they protest, they make it ugly. Way more hardcore than our 4 hour pickets here in dallas. They went all out hardcore.

Now all of this is based solely on if gas reaches 200 dollars a barrel. I just dont see it going from 60 dollars to 200 dollars a barrel in 12 months time. Unless there is some kind of shortage crisis or something. your talking about a 300%+ increase.

Lets say it does however hit 3.50 or 4 dollars a gallon. that would be what around 140 dollars a barrel or 120. Maybe people should start looking into public transportation systems. I know my employeer will buy you a one year all access pass for public transportation in DFW if you give up your reserved spot for general parking. I know the school I go to gives you 75% off the cost of an annual pass for public system just for being a student. Sure some people feel above it, but when I lived in chicago for 6 months we used the system to get every where and we had cars. Public transportation was actually faster than driving. It actually still is for me I can get to the VA in 10 mins by train, and its about 30 if I drive. It would be a good opportunity for people to look into things like this. The systems are not nearly as slow as they used to be. It is just something to think about. That and car pooling in a beater or effeciency vehicle.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Here in Phoenix, car-pooling and mass transit aren't an option.
You can't actually get anywhere in the bus system and the "light rail" just shuttles ASU students here and there - it doesn't really go anywhere useful.
Since it is a 50 mile journey from one end of town to the other and no one works near where they live or with anyone near where they live, driving is the only option.
Most people drive HUGE trucks here and they are usually carrying just the driver and tooling down the HOV lane 5 under the limit.

lateralus

iTrader: (1)

What is the point you are trying to make with the Ducato? I don't see how that is going to replace SUVs... There is no SUVs and trucks may be needed, they are needed. Large vehicles are the only way to safely transport some things... If you are going to be lugging a very heavy trailer, you need a heavy vehicle that is able to handle all the weight that it is pulling. Not to mention many people need vehicles that are capable of going off-road, and SUVs/trucks are pretty much the only things that can truly handle such circumstances... Obviously there are a lot of people who drive SUVs that are much bigger than necessary, but there are also people who drive them because they truly need them.

Also, there are already millions of SUVs in the U.S. today... The SUV is not going to become unneeded overnight because of gas prices since the millions of people that already own them are not going to simply just be able to go out and get another car. Especially if noone buys SUVs anymore so the resale value goes wayyy down, making it where current owners cant even get much money back for their SUV in order to buy something new...

bse50

What's the percentage of people that need a vehicle capable of going off-road and transport a huge trailer? how often is the trailer transported? If you lay it down on the table the percentage is minimal.
If you drive something like a ducato then you don't need the trailer, that's where we are smarter than you. Plus you could use pretty much ANY station wagon on the market today to trail something.
Get off of your "we need" it mentality, all they do is sell you the need of something. I often trail my rx8 with a 1.6l 110hp corolla verso... do I need a huge truck for doing that?
It's the same for big engines in any moving vehicle. Tell my what's the use of a 5.2l engine in a car in 2011!

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

we have dug our own grave.
Alternative energy is the furture.
Like some have said, gasoline is only a very small part of this.
What I really, really hate is the control the oil companies have over us. The way they supress new technology and manipulate the markets.
You see, the "oil" companies have not maximized profit from their product. They cannot afford to allow new technology to be introduced that would jeprodize what they do.
All companies do this. They dont introduce anything new until they have made all there is on what they already have. Thats good business, but I do not agree with it.
OD

lateralus

iTrader: (1)

We obviously aren't from the same place.... Because here quite a lot of people make a living where they have to carry a large amount of equipment around the city to do their job. Whether they are in construction, private contracting, landscaping, plumbing, HVAC, or numerous other jobs in the same type of work. How often is it transported? FIVE DAYS A WEEK... Just because wherever you are from doesn't usually require trucks/SUVs doesn't mean that nowhere does... And yeah, you try pulling a piece of heavy machinery behind a station wagon and see how it does when you have to come to a stop with a few thousand pounds connected to the back of it.... I used to work in private contracting, and I can guarantee you that trying to do that job with anything short of a truck or SUV simply wouldn't work.... Not to mention the fact that plenty of jobs require a vehicle that is capable of easily and safely going off-road.

Not to mention what makes you hate SUVs so much in the first place? The only two arguments against them are that they take up too much space and they get bad gas mileage... Since you are recommending the Fiat Ducato, you obviously don't have a problem with the size of the vehicle. And as for gas mileage, these days a lot of SUVs get better gas mileage than our RX-8s do... A lot of the mid and small size ones get in the mid 20s. And even some of the big ones get just about the same as our cars... A new Chevrolet Suburban gets 21mpg on the highway (and can tow up to 9.5k lbs. A station wagon cannot do that). That is better than plenty of people on this forum get with their cars. So aside from size (which you don't mind) and gas mileage (which you can't say is that bad considering a lot of SUVs get better gas mileage than you do in your 8), what is so bad about SUVs?

2tone

iTrader: (3)

with all due respect to healthy arguments...this thread seems a bit pointless

lateralus

iTrader: (1)

Haha, touche 2tone.... Touche.

neXib

Biggest problem in Norway is the taxation on roads, cars, co2, hp and weight. I wouldn't mind the gas taxation as much if we didn't have those (which is what made my RX-8 cost 65,000 bucks.

USA is like heaven for us, even with 5 dollar gas. It's 8,7 bucks here now. We pump a bunch of oil so you'd think we'd get it cheap :P

77mjd

My only gripe is that fuel efficient cars in my mind translates to ugly cars. Civic, Corolla, Camry, Focus, etc. Why can't they make something that looks like a sports car using a 4 cylinder that gets 30+ mpg? Something like that FT-86 might be a start since it is supposedly not that powerful, but at least it looks decent. If it came down to it, I wouldn't mind driving something like that. I believe Nissan was working on something that could have been a baby brother to the Z. Nice, small sports coupe with 200-some HP but I think that got scrapped.

Why can't anyone take a lesson from Lotus? Small, lightweight, small engine, decent MPG, and goes like hell?

Flashwing

One aspect to take into consideration is the fact that the companies that are involved in the process from pumping to production are capable of controlling the price. Despite the rises in cost, there have been no shortages in oil what so ever. This is even taking into consideration that Iraq was not producing oil for several years on a mass scale.

The oil cartels in the middle east have already made promises not to raise production in 2011 because there is plenty of supply. If they have a choice for the same barrel of oil being bought for $50 or $100 they are going to choose the $100 option. The market is cornered (at least in the US) because our government has made it nearly impossible to seize domestic oil sources and introduce some competition into the market. Of course there are no guarantees that US domestic oil producers wouldn't engage in the same behavior.

A lot of the focus with SUV's in the US is a combination of a few factors: First is safety. I'm sorry but no matter how well a smaller car fairs in crash tests people are not sold that a smaller vehicle will protect themselves and their family better than a full size SUV or truck. I drove a Lincoln Towncar as my first car because my family wanted me protected by a tank. Second, many families need the space but don't want to drive a minivan. I can't blame them. I'd rather roll in a SUV than a Minivan anyday. Finally, there are some work needs.

The fact is that even with fuel efficient vehicles the price will go up. In fact, the price will probably go up faster if everyone tomorrow was driving 40mpg+ vehicles. You'll simply be paying the same or more money for less oil.

The only way to drive down prices is introduce competitive elements into the market. Alternative fuel vehicles is a good idea but the current implementation is poor. Providing subsidies for ethanol which is a poor fuel choice, hydrogen is still a decade out from mass production assuming the challenges are addressed for the same reasons as ethanol.

As frightening as it sounds, I'm keeping my eye on the Nissan Leaf as a hedge against higher gas prices. Electric rates in the US are regulated by a state body where companies have to get approval to jack rates so they don't change as frequently as gas prices.

$5 is possible but at least with the US economy it's not sustainable. Previously it caused pretty noticeable inflation and a serious reduction in miles driven annually.

Couple the fact that even IF methods such as walking, biking etc. were possible here in Phoenix they wouldn't be during the summer. Anyone who bikes to work in 115 degree heat is sure to drop dead after a few miles.