Hymee Exhaust installation + Dyno results!!
01-30-2006, 06:55 PM
#76
rock-->o<--hard place
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Canberra, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by EZZY
kall's 120.8kw on the autosalon dyno was with the exhaust
Hmmm....looks like we should have....a dyno day
01-30-2006, 08:02 PM
#77
New Member
Originally Posted by EZZY
i dont think anyone is disputing the factory reading, low 120s to mid 120s is about what the 8 would put out.....
kall's 120.8kw on the autosalon dyno was with the exhaust... so thats about 15kw less than what Kunz's got...
kall's 120.8kw on the autosalon dyno was with the exhaust... so thats about 15kw less than what Kunz's got...
The absolute figure of the 8 from one place to another is comparing apple to orange.
Elite dyno from 104rwkW at autosalon to 142rwkW at the place he tunes his car.
My friend dynoed 128fwkW his DC5 at Subaru Centre Dockland, but only dyno 121fwkW at another places....
I started explaining to him before he starts slashing his wrists
BTW: Kunz dyno in 4th gear... it is already different from dynoing in 3rd gear that I think autosalon uses
One should have the G Tech thingy to test it out.
Last edited by takahashi; 01-30-2006 at 08:06 PM.
01-30-2006, 08:24 PM
#78
Shifty Bastard.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Taka, we know dyno figures are all over the place from dyno to dyno. The point here with kunz's car is that it was dyno'd twice on the same dyno, four hours apart, by the same operator.
I can't see that mandrel bent fifteen inch long muffler outlet pipes are going to make much of a difference.
I can't see that mandrel bent fifteen inch long muffler outlet pipes are going to make much of a difference.
01-30-2006, 08:30 PM
#79
New Member
I know. I am just picking on what Eric had said
If you dynoed at 120.8kW at one place... it MAY not mean a slower car than a 132kW at another place ... that is what I am saying
Kunz has done as close as a test dyno for Hymee exhaust as possible and should be congratulate for that...
If you dynoed at 120.8kW at one place... it MAY not mean a slower car than a 132kW at another place ... that is what I am saying
Kunz has done as close as a test dyno for Hymee exhaust as possible and should be congratulate for that...
Last edited by takahashi; 01-30-2006 at 08:32 PM.
01-30-2006, 08:49 PM
#80
Shifty Bastard.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've danced all around this, but I think it's time I spelled out what I'm thinking.
Is it possible the dyno operator has fudged the figures to make the customer happy? Many people have dyno'd RX-8's in the past and come up with bugger all in the way of hp after exhaust improvements. No-one is selling headers because there is nothing significant to be made there.
I'm happy to be proven wrong. I just think there is a question mark hanging over these figures.
Is it possible the dyno operator has fudged the figures to make the customer happy? Many people have dyno'd RX-8's in the past and come up with bugger all in the way of hp after exhaust improvements. No-one is selling headers because there is nothing significant to be made there.
I'm happy to be proven wrong. I just think there is a question mark hanging over these figures.
01-30-2006, 08:54 PM
#82
cry me a river...
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Syd / Melb
Posts: 4,475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by takahashi
Haha...
The absolute figure of the 8 from one place to another is comparing apple to orange.
Elite dyno from 104rwkW at autosalon to 142rwkW at the place he tunes his car.
My friend dynoed 128fwkW his DC5 at Subaru Centre Dockland, but only dyno 121fwkW at another places....
I started explaining to him before he starts slashing his wrists
BTW: Kunz dyno in 4th gear... it is already different from dynoing in 3rd gear that I think autosalon uses
One should have the G Tech thingy to test it out.
The absolute figure of the 8 from one place to another is comparing apple to orange.
Elite dyno from 104rwkW at autosalon to 142rwkW at the place he tunes his car.
My friend dynoed 128fwkW his DC5 at Subaru Centre Dockland, but only dyno 121fwkW at another places....
I started explaining to him before he starts slashing his wrists
BTW: Kunz dyno in 4th gear... it is already different from dynoing in 3rd gear that I think autosalon uses
One should have the G Tech thingy to test it out.
too many variables to be considered for a "real" dyno figure, thats why i dont really give two f's about it..... ppl would dyno on either 3rd or 4th gear, and with different dyno loading(s), diff enviroment, different dyno, mood of the operator etc..........
the autosalon dyno readouts have been controversial in the past years... (*cough* if you know the operator, *cough* you can presuede him to change the loading for ya... *cough* *cough*)
01-30-2006, 08:54 PM
#83
Shifty Bastard.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
01-30-2006, 08:56 PM
#84
New Member
Originally Posted by Gomez
I just read it good read ----
Particularly interested in the last point - what is the best alignment for dyno
Last edited by takahashi; 01-30-2006 at 09:00 PM.
01-30-2006, 09:21 PM
#85
Shootin' from the hip
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Gomez
01-30-2006, 09:29 PM
#86
Shootin' from the hip
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by timbo
Hmmm....looks like we should have....a dyno day
(we've all got time to save up bribes for the dyno operator 
).As for the exhaust thing - I appreciate the doubt out there given the available empirical evidence but what evidence do you need? Most seem to think that Kunz has, as near as possible, tried to produce some hard numbers for us to digest. If that's not good enough, what is? And who's to say that early tests are any more accurate (i.e. were they performed in circumstances that would produce an unnaturally low result???).
Hymee will hate me for suggesting this
but what about a demo dyno test of his exhaust at the Nats? A volunteer with an otherwise stock car could turn up, run a dyno test, then have the exhaust fitted in a workshop in Goulburn (with expert assistance by the designer) and then have it dynoed again. Would that be considered an accurate way of convincing the doubters?If not, why bother looking at ANY dyno figures at all?????
01-30-2006, 09:50 PM
#87
Originally Posted by Revolver
I appreciate the doubt out there given the available empirical evidence but what evidence do you need? Most seem to think that Kunz has, as near as possible, tried to produce some hard numbers for us to digest. If that's not good enough, what is?
Originally Posted by Revolver
If not, why bother looking at ANY dyno figures at all?????
The question Kunz needs to answer is "Does it drive any different?" But I've seen it all before on places like this... "Yeah, but you think it is quicker 'cause it is louder..."
Sometimes you can't win!
I still don't know why the operator would have any reason to make Kunz feel better - the test was not on a product from his shop.
Cheers,
Hymee.
01-30-2006, 10:10 PM
#88
Shifty Bastard.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Revolver
If not, why bother looking at ANY dyno figures at all?????
All I know about the RX-8 I have absorbed from sites like this one, books I have purchased, software I have purloined, and hands-on experience with my car.
Every single source of info I've cast my eyes over has said this.......there is no easy hp available with exhaust mods. For example, Racing Beat have extensive experience with RX-8's. They have done work for Mazda.
Originally Posted by Racing Beat website
The following table lists the measured power gains from various aftermarket components. Testing has been conducted on the Racing Beat engine dyno with both pre-production and production Renesis engines.
1. Intake – enlarging the oval inlet to the factory air box - +2 HP (this modification eliminates the VFAD intake duct.).
2. Headers – approximately 4 HP peak power gain.
3. Mufflers – muffler & connecting pipe - 2-3 HP.
4. Removing the muffler from the car (engine) – about 4 HP.
5. Remove catalytic converter and resonator from the engine completely, and replacing with "cat" replacement tube – max benefit 8 HP – regardless of what muffler is used (or even no muffler).
"The muffler "off" will yield about 4 HP, with a very loud exhaust note. With it "off" the car, the noise is unbelievable! We find 2-3 HP peak RPM maximum improvement from our exhaust, or any competitive system that we have tested. So someone can see from these numbers, it is quite difficult to get a lot more HP from this engine. The max potential with a header and race exhaust would be around 10HP."
1. Intake – enlarging the oval inlet to the factory air box - +2 HP (this modification eliminates the VFAD intake duct.).
2. Headers – approximately 4 HP peak power gain.
3. Mufflers – muffler & connecting pipe - 2-3 HP.
4. Removing the muffler from the car (engine) – about 4 HP.
5. Remove catalytic converter and resonator from the engine completely, and replacing with "cat" replacement tube – max benefit 8 HP – regardless of what muffler is used (or even no muffler).
"The muffler "off" will yield about 4 HP, with a very loud exhaust note. With it "off" the car, the noise is unbelievable! We find 2-3 HP peak RPM maximum improvement from our exhaust, or any competitive system that we have tested. So someone can see from these numbers, it is quite difficult to get a lot more HP from this engine. The max potential with a header and race exhaust would be around 10HP."
01-30-2006, 10:13 PM
#89
Shifty Bastard.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hymee
I still don't know why the operator would have any reason to make Kunz feel better - the test was not on a product from his shop.
I assume kunz paid the operator for the dyno time?
01-30-2006, 10:33 PM
#91
Shootin' from the hip
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I sure as hell know one thing. All this suspicion is hardly going to encourage Kunz or anyone else to share such results in future.
I mean, why put your head above the parapet if at the end of the day it's gonna get down to veiled suggestions that your numbers are dodgy, whether you had anything to do with it or not??
Why can't we just take these numbers on board, by all means puzzle a little (as Kunz did) over the results and encourage others to carry out AND share their own testing.
I mean, why put your head above the parapet if at the end of the day it's gonna get down to veiled suggestions that your numbers are dodgy, whether you had anything to do with it or not??
Why can't we just take these numbers on board, by all means puzzle a little (as Kunz did) over the results and encourage others to carry out AND share their own testing.
01-30-2006, 10:41 PM
#93
rock-->o<--hard place
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Canberra, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting debate!
First, I like before and after dyno tests, and for them to be published here. Same as time slips -- provides tangible evidence vs the "it feels much stronger" crap. So, I would hate Kunz to feel in the slightest that we are doubting what he has done or his motives for doing so. More power to you, Kunz, for putting it up.
Secondly, yes, ultimately everything can be fudged. But, as has been said, there would need to be a motive, and I can't see that for anyone involved in this one. About the only thing I can see is the importance of publishing a full set of dyno test parameters along with the results, but I guess the operators just tend to run the car through then on to the next one without our needs in mind.
I don't think we should dismiss dyno testing out of hand based on the fact that there is a lot of art as well as science to the testing, because what will we rely on as an alternative? The reason I say this is that we are now in 2006, at which time many cars will be going out of warranty, with more owners keen to try out more extensive modding than they were prepared to do earlier. This will make RX-8 ownership even more interesting, but also more susceptible to bullsh!t. It seems to me as a forum that this discussion might have a positive spin-off by at least getting some agreement on what information we want to see alongside dyno test results, so that we can more understand their implications more clearly.
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me might care to kick off a thread on the subject?
BTW, looking at Kunz's chart again, I am also perplexed by some differences in the tracking of the two power curves. Shouldn't they at least parallel each other?
First, I like before and after dyno tests, and for them to be published here. Same as time slips -- provides tangible evidence vs the "it feels much stronger" crap. So, I would hate Kunz to feel in the slightest that we are doubting what he has done or his motives for doing so. More power to you, Kunz, for putting it up.
Secondly, yes, ultimately everything can be fudged. But, as has been said, there would need to be a motive, and I can't see that for anyone involved in this one. About the only thing I can see is the importance of publishing a full set of dyno test parameters along with the results, but I guess the operators just tend to run the car through then on to the next one without our needs in mind.
I don't think we should dismiss dyno testing out of hand based on the fact that there is a lot of art as well as science to the testing, because what will we rely on as an alternative? The reason I say this is that we are now in 2006, at which time many cars will be going out of warranty, with more owners keen to try out more extensive modding than they were prepared to do earlier. This will make RX-8 ownership even more interesting, but also more susceptible to bullsh!t. It seems to me as a forum that this discussion might have a positive spin-off by at least getting some agreement on what information we want to see alongside dyno test results, so that we can more understand their implications more clearly.
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me might care to kick off a thread on the subject?
BTW, looking at Kunz's chart again, I am also perplexed by some differences in the tracking of the two power curves. Shouldn't they at least parallel each other?
01-30-2006, 10:43 PM
#94
rock-->o<--hard place
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Canberra, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, Revolver...our posts crossed. We're saying the same thing. Yes, please post your dyno results (in fact we don't believe anything without some posted data) but also where possible the test parameters and environment such as ... ... ...
01-30-2006, 10:51 PM
#95
Shootin' from the hip
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hymee
Revolver for Moderator!!!
01-30-2006, 10:52 PM
#96
Shootin' from the hip
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by timbo
Ah, Revolver...our posts crossed. We're saying the same thing. Yes, please post your dyno results (in fact we don't believe anything without some posted data) but also where possible the test parameters and environment such as ... ... ...
01-30-2006, 11:09 PM
#98
Shifty Bastard.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hymee
I also assume Kunz paid for the dyno time - all the more reason for him to expect he is getting a reliable result.
01-30-2006, 11:12 PM
#99
cry me a river...
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Syd / Melb
Posts: 4,475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Gomez
I'm not criticising kunz. I'm just looking for answers. Answers are preferable to questions, in my book anyway.... 
01-30-2006, 11:16 PM
#100
cry me a river...
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Syd / Melb
Posts: 4,475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gotta give Kunz some encouragements...
we had a quick chat about it at the crusie, he was still puzzled about the dyno figures...
he will be doing more mods to his 8, so as long as he keeps on using the same dyno and operator with similar environment conditions, then it is all good i reckon.
if he is happy with it, thats all it matters....
we had a quick chat about it at the crusie, he was still puzzled about the dyno figures...
he will be doing more mods to his 8, so as long as he keeps on using the same dyno and operator with similar environment conditions, then it is all good i reckon.
if he is happy with it, thats all it matters....