Just got a call from my dealer. Official Mazda word is 239 HP. Current owners and those who take delivery by Tuesday will get a $500 credit and free scheduled maintenance for the warranty period ("approx value $1260").

$500 credit? Is this in the form of a gas card?

This just in:

Just got a phone call from budaman, who had just got off a conference call with MNAO. Apparently they are revising the RX-8 horsepower figures: the Manual is being revised down 3.6% to 238hp, and the Auto down 4.5% to 197hp.

Anyone who has already purchased an RX-8 will be receiving a letter from Mazda offering two alternatives:[list=1] Mazda will buy back the car. (He didn't have the full details - they'll be in the letter.)
Mazda will provide free scheduled servicing for the duration of the standard warranty plus a $500 debit card.
[/list=1] Basically the same deal that they offered after the 2001 Miata was found to be down on power too. Owners will have 30 days to decide.

Personally, I'm amazed that they repeated such a basic blunder, but I know which of the options I'll be taking (and it ain't "return the car" :) ).

(budaman would have posted this himself but his 'net connection is down.)

I'm thinking the buy-back works for me.

Vince

WOW! Let's assume for Canada they will IGNORE the issue, that's what Hyundai did in Canada!

Anyone know if in Canada the Miata owners were fixed up?

wow... I must admit interesting how they could have blundered again...

Anyways thanks for the news, I look foward to additional info as it comes out.

B'man also said that these deficits are within the "normally-allowable" tolerance of 5%, but because we're as (or more) fanatical as the Miata community, they decided to make the offer as a show of good faith.

not to be the ultimate pessimist, but isn't it possible the adjusted value is NOW whithin the 5% tolerance, so actual HP is even lower than 238?

:-)

Somebody want to calculate the value of the service package so we can figure out what we are really getting?

I know one thing -- I just made out like a bandit -- the car has more than enough power for me :D and I just got free service for 4 years and $500 -- SWEET :cool:

Originally posted by IwantONE2
not to be the ultimate pessimist, but isn't it possible the adjusted value is NOW whithin the 5% tolerance, so actual HP is even lower than 238?

:-)

Considering the dyno results that would seem entirely likely. I'm very concerned that the UK cars (already down on power compared to the US) will be even lower than expected. We need to find out WHY the US engines were wrongly specced ASAP.

I must admit however, I'm relieved the issue is finally over. Now I just have to pray my car gets here by Tuesday so I can take advantage of the $500 and free maintenance.

Do you think I can be covered anyways since my first car got damaged before delivery? Probably not.

Welp, like I figured, free service. Too bad I already have that setup with my car. Wonder what will beoffered in that case? Maybe a nice chunky discount over the total....

They are it seems.

Hmmm did some research on the miata case, and it seems canadians also got the deal. But hell in the US you get $500 USD in Canada we get $500 CDN?? Ummm that's not right!

I guess time will tell.... do I give up the car and get something else or do I take the package.... hmmm

what kind of "service" is this? just oil changes and tune ups?

Holy crap.. that's some news.

Any idea what happened? Maybe a why, or how?

Dang, I look forward to this letter. Honestly, I don't know what I would do. I really love the car, but I did pay some markup on it. But now the markup feels even more sting seeing as I didnt get "all" my ponies. With the mileage rant, lack of power rant, the car is really losing it's shine. If you really think about it, the mileage for this sort of HP numbers, isn't enticing..

daaaang. :eek:

what I want to know is, does this mean the MSRP for the RX-8 will also be lowered, to compensate for the loss of rated power?????

I want my RX-8!!!! at a discount if possible!!!!!!!

Originally posted by RX-Nut
Holy crap.. that's some news.

Any idea what happened? Maybe a why, or how?

Dang, I look forward to this letter. Honestly, I don't know what I would do. I really love the car, but I did pay some markup on it. But now the markup feels even more sting seeing as I didnt get "all" my ponies.

daaaang. :eek:

one word: EMISSIONS

dang, I feel your pain :(

are you gonna return the car?

I didn't get all the details. It sounded like it was definitely a credit card of some sort, not cash back, so who knows.

A buy back for eight HP? Not likely. I wonder if it really IS just eight, though. :-)

I am at my dealership posting this - they phoned me with this 29 mins ago but I was traveling to their office to pick up plates. They had a conference call with Mazda which ended about 30 minutes ago.

RX-8 6MT is re-rated at 238HP by Mazda.
RX-8 4AT is re-rated at 197HP by Mazda.

All performance figures should be as good or better than the pre-production cars however - they stand by advertising of 0-60 in 5.9 secs.

Anyone who has bought the car (up to August 26th, or waiting on delivery) is offered the following:
1. Repurchase of vehicle - all costs included
2. $500 debit card and free maintenance for the warranty period (4 years and 50k miles).

Anyone in Houston can call RX8Seller (Richard Rives) at 713-932-6004 for more info.

Edited to change contact name at Jeff Haas Mazda (at their request) should you want more info...

do they think I'm going to return my car in for something else now
?....I'm pretty sure the people that took delivery of the 8 will keep them and accept Mazda's solution to their blunder. That's fine, the car performs well and I'm sure a turbo kit or some performance mods can help fix that hp issue.

one word: EMISSIONS[QUOTE]

If it's emisions then there will be an after market remapping to regain the horses.

250 > 247 > 238...the Japanese are still rated at 250...obviously this is an emissions thing and the Renesis is still capable of 250...

after all the work i've done already i am not about to sell it back...that $500 and extra cash from the maintenance is going towards a supercharger

wtf... does everyone get the 5 bills?

For those who still want the RX-8 and don't mind the 9 hp deficiency, this can only help you make a better deal.

In Cincinnati there is already 35 6spd RX-8's with the GT package, I am willing to bet, after this announcement, that dealers will be just itching to offload their RX-8 inventory.

Heck there may be some nearly new RX-8 sold as used cars!:)


A black RX8 6spd with GT package under $30K, sounds good to me.


Magic8

-8 HP? I don't think so, it's more like -20 HP

Originally posted by ZoomZoomH
what I want to know is, does this mean the MSRP for the RX-8 will also be lowered, to compensate for the loss of rated power?I doubt it - the 2001 Miata price wasn't revised AFAIK - if folks still wanted one at the revised power, they still paid the same price.

Originally posted by IwantONE2
I must admit however, I'm relieved the issue is finally over. Now I just have to pray my car gets here by Tuesday so I can take advantage of the $500 and free maintenance.

Do you think I can be covered anyways since my first car got damaged before delivery? Probably not.

I second this, i have a deposit on one to arrive any day now and I'm trying to figure out my options. But I missed where "Tuesday" shows up in this thread. Can someone clarify?

Originally posted by norcalrx8


I second this, i have a deposit on one to arrive any day now and I'm trying to figure out my options. But I missed where "Tuesday" shows up in this thread. Can someone clarify?

Allegedly it has to be delivered by then for you to get the new deal.

Originally posted by compaddict
-8 HP? I don't think so, it's more like -20 HP

250hp > 247hp > 238hp = 12hp...the dyno's are saying more, however...

Originally posted by BRx8
after all the work i've done already i am not about to sell it back... Once I get my letter, I will have to think about it but not because the car is lacking, I like the car.

Don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but.. my "guess" is that if you have not yet purchased the car, you probably will not be included on the free service/$500 compensation package. You have the option of NOT buying the car, knowing this data now.

Just looking at this from a legal aspect. JMO

Also, I'm not holding my breath until I get this letter from Mazda. No offense to anyone here, but this IS just heresay at this point.

Originally posted by BRx8
250hp > 247hp > 238hp = 12hpFor the umpteenth time: they never claimed 250hp. The original estimate was 250ps - a Japanese standard which is the same as 247hp. The admitted deficit is 247-238=9hp, or 3.6%.

Here we go again, 3 threads talking about the exact same subject. But I agree with the other cloned thread that if it's due to an emissions adjustment, we can easily regain HP with a chip mod in the near future.

Im going to keep my 8. But my question is. Can $500 buy 9hp??

Hey gang, I'm back
First let me say I'm a little surprised at some of your reactions. It's the same car that you purchased and more than likely drove before you purchased and were obviously pleased with or you wouldn't have purchased it. You will be getting 4yrs or 50,000 miles of free service and $500 to boot. And if your really angry over the numbers, Mazda will buy it back from you. It's a no lose situation for you. This will also apply to anyone that has a vehicle on order and hasn't taken delivery. Just make sure your dealer gets your info to Mazda if its not in the Mazda system already. Personally, I think the car is a blast to drive whether they say it has 250 hp or 150 hp. Have fun with the car while your making your decision!

__________________________________________________ __Don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but.. my "guess" is that if you have not yet purchased the car, you probably will not be included on the free service/$500 compensation package. You have the option of NOT buying the car, knowing this data now.

Just looking at this from a legal aspect. JMO
______________________________________

Depends on what "purchase" means, I'm going to my dealer when I get off work to do whatever I can to qualify.

I am slightly disappointed. Would I have like to have had more power there? Sure, who wouldn't. But, I feel the power is great enough for me. Although I haven't driven my car yet, their are plenty of owners that have said that the power available is plenty enough for them. Even with the missing hp, this car would be one of the quickest I have ever owned (along with my '69 Camaro). With that said, because of the performance already, I won't be selling the car back.

Would I have still bought the car if I would have known it would be 238 HP? Probably. I'm not into the numbers game anyway. Do I think that the car should have been priced lower because of that? Most definately. The free scheduled maintenance will help in that regard, although along with the $500 debit card, it is not enough, IMO.

I do think there is room for added HP from modifications. If I'm not mistaken, the concept RX-EVOLV with the same engine was 280 HP at the flywheel. So there is 42 HP that is obtainable in some fashion. If sometime in the future I feel I need more power, I'm sure there will be ECU, Exhaust, Forced Air, etc, mods out there if I need it.

Originally posted by budaman
This will also apply to anyone that has a vehicle on order and hasn't taken delivery.
I stand corrected.

Hey Buda, any idea on timeframe for these letters to start showing up?

Originally posted by IwantONE2
not to be the ultimate pessimist, but isn't it possible the adjusted value is NOW whithin the 5% tolerance, so actual HP is even lower than 238?

:-)

You may be right Mr. Ultimate Pessimist.

At 238 hp their originally projected 17% rwhp loss comes out to 197.5 HP.

Add that extra 5% tolerance (22%) to that and you have rwhp @ 185.6, very close to the dyno results.

OK, I have a question how this will apply to me ( :) ).

I paid extra for the warranty, which I still want, but part of the "commercial" description for why we should get that warranty was that it came with free maintenance for the entire time.

Do you think I should expect to get extra $$ to cover the extra maintenance, get screwed, or get some $$ back from the warranty contract?

Originally posted by budaman
Personally, I think the car is a blast to drive whether they say it has 250 hp or 150 hp. Have fun with the car while your making your decision!

Aye aye to that!! Until I receive my letter I wont even think about this. All in all I just hope that this does not hurt Mazda or the possible birth of the RX-7.

I'm not overly concerned with the numbers either, but it seems odd now that a 238 or 189 hp dynoed car sucks gas as it does?

Come on, something is up with the ECU, I'm not sure why / how but I'm sure something could be done. I'm sure the lower HP from the Evolv is for emissions AND for longevity. This engine had to be SOLID and giving it 280Hp might be taxing it for the everyday user that won't use that power.


If we do get the same deal in Canada, we'll get screwed even more than the $500 cdn to USD difference (approx $200) because we only have 3 year warranty on the car!

And as someone else asked, does that include ALL maintenance. IE, replace / change of air filter at 40,000Km check fuel filter etc. The "BIG" services are rather expensive!

omg this is unbelievable. how the fuck?!?!!? i would think with the miata fiasco, mazda woulda learn they lesson. guess not. now the reason for the 1-2 month for the delay was because they wanted to double and triple check the power of the rx8 because they didnt want another miata bust. and all that testing resulted to nothing. it went from 250 to 247 to 238, what the hell???

well i guess there is some good to come of this.

i get 500$ debit card(woulda prefered cash but whatevers)

and get free schdeuedled maintance for 4 years. whatever that means, oil change? tires? tune ups?

Originally posted by eccles
For the umpteenth time: they never claimed 250hp. The original estimate was 250ps - a Japanese standard which is the same as 247hp. The admitted deficit is 247-238=9hp, or 3.6%.

http://mypage.iu.edu/~jmschant/RX8ad2small.jpg

if you can see that (it's kinda blurry) it clearly shows 250hp...this is from Maxim Magazine, US...i also have seen 250hp on billboards and other publications...also the website was at 250hp when i ordered and suddenly went down to 247hp...so NO, i'm not hallucinating..

The letters should start going out Monday. As far as the extended warranties, those are not issued by MNAO, they are issued by private companies or in some instances mazda credit and the free scheduled maint. won't apply once the factory 4/50000 warranty expires.

Just got off the horn with the Parts and Service Manager at Mazda South, who had just got off the phone with one of his technical contacts at Mazda. Apparently, Mazda dyno'd 11 cars (or the engines from 11 cars - not sure) and has used the the average power outputs from those cars as the revised official specs.

Interestingly, he said that these numbers were as good or better than those achieved by the pre-production cars that were used by the various magazines and press days. So the production cars are still just as capable of the performance figures achieved by the testers - it's just the actual hp number that's down from what was claimed.

He also said that Mazda was obliged to do something because the claimed hp numbers are printed on the window stickers - if they had only been used in advertising material, they would have been subject to a wider margin or error. (Or words to that effect.)

Excuse my ignorance but who is "budaman" and why would Mazda corporate break this news to him in a conference call?

I get enough of this $hit from our politicians. I don't need it from my beloved car company as well!!! :mad:

I think this is absolutely rediculous! How can they do this AGAIN!?!

I love the car and will keep it regardless, but I'm incredibly disappointed in Mazda....

Originally posted by eccles
For the umpteenth time: they never claimed 250hp. The original estimate was 250ps - a Japanese standard which is the same as 247hp. The admitted deficit is 247-238=9hp, or 3.6%.


From their own documentation, Jon..............

Thanks for the inside info buda. You are definitely an asset to the forum.

Did they have any reason for the shortage? Did they know about it? Any other info, perhaps?

Originally posted by graphicguy
Excuse my ignorance but who is "budaman" and why would Mazda corporate break this news to him in a conference call?

Only the finest Inventory Manager, for the Finest Dealer, in the Finest State In the World!!!

Right, Budaman?

Originally posted by budaman
The letters should start going out Monday. As far as the extended warranties, those are not issued by MNAO, they are issued by private companies or in some instances mazda credit and the free scheduled maint. won't apply once the factory 4/50000 warranty expires.

Darn. So I'm screwed there arent I?

Oh well. Like you said, I'm happy with the way the car behaves and at least will get 500 bucks. Wish I could have gotten the free service too. Guess I'll go visit my dealer when I get the letter and see what can be arranged.

Wow, if they go through with this, it's great news! I love my car and I wouldn't give it up, but that free warranty service and $500 check card will be a lovely thing to have as well.

Originally posted by tribal azn2
it went from 250 to 247 to 238, what the hell???Bollocks! How many times do folks have to point out that 250ps - the original spec - is 247hp?

Sheesh! Can we please let all the wild-ass speculation and inaccuracies go and concentrate on the known facts?

so i'm wondering whether i can have mazda buy the car back, then repurchase one for much cheaper when this breaks publicly. maybe get even more than the $1260 worth of maintenance and credit. hmmmm...

I will have to think about this...

I paid sticker for the 8, so if I sell it back to Mazda I could then go out and hammer out a deal for one of these "underpowered" RX-8s that are sitting on the lots in the DFW area. Might just get me a new RX-8 with the nav option for what I paid for the first one.

The only drawback will be having to take it easy for ANOTHER 600 mile break in.


Any mention of the time frame you have to sell one back?

Originally posted by eccles
He also said that Mazda was obliged to do something because the claimed hp numbers are printed on the window stickers - if they had only been used in advertising material, they would have been subject to a wider margin or error. (Or words to that effect.)

Yup.. I saw that as I received my window sticker in the mail from my dealer on Monday.. It got me thinking about this whole ordeal....

Anyhow it shows clearly..

1.3L ROTARY ENGINE WITH 247HP

I'm keeping the car, after reviewing the RX-8 Owners Manual, I'm satisfied with using the Scheduled Maintenance option #2 on page 8-5 and receiving a $500 credit. If you are happy with the car now you should be satisfied with the free maintenance and some cash. But Mazda should really get their sh*t together, this is an embarassing blunder. Hope no one at Mazda Japan commits Seppuku over the situation.

Originally posted by eccles
Bollocks! How many times do folks have to point out that 250ps - the original spec - is 247hp?

Sheesh! Can we please let all the wild-ass speculation and inaccuracies go and concentrate on the known facts?

PLEASE STOP YOUR COPY AND PASTING OVER AND OVER, LOOK, U HAVE ALREADY BEEN PROVEN WRONG

Originally posted by BRx8


http://mypage.iu.edu/~jmschant/RX8ad2small.jpg

if you can see that (it's kinda blurry) it clearly shows 250hp...this is from Maxim Magazine, US...i also have seen 250hp on billboards and other publications...also the website was at 250hp when i ordered and suddenly went down to 247hp...so NO, i'm not hallucinating..


AND ALSO THIS

http://www.rx8forum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=102726



WERD TO YA MOTHA

Budaman, what do you know of some sort of deadline on Tuesday? Now I just heard from my dealer that the car needs to be ordered and SHIPPED by Tuesday, not purchased by Tuesday. In which case my order would be eligible. But they aren't 100% sure.

Will the 2005 have 247hp then? or the same 238?

Originally posted by tpryor
From their own documentation, Jon.Hmm, yep, okay, I'm wrong again. I seem to be making a habit of it lately. The only times I recall seeing 250 mentioned was in the early Japanese blurbs that said 250ps, or in US advertising material where it was accompanied by an asterisked rider that it was a "target."

238hp....mmmm...drives fine, 50K miles warranty, free service, 500 bucks for window tinting or to make an extra payment on the loan.....4 seats, rotary. I'll keep it.

And pray they will launch a 2 seater or convertible in a couple years....hopefuly with the same problem :p and the same deal.

Now, until I receive that letter, I won't bother thinking about it. Besides their MazdaUsa still says 247hp. If they had the specs revised, they better update them on their site and remove advertising from the streets fast.

What does Mazda plan to do with the cars bought back? Resell them as CPO?

I'm not saying it's possible, but imagine driving the car for another month, selling it back to Mazda for full sticker, then repurchasing the exact same car. You're bound to save more than $2k on the deal.

Another alternative: if you can find a dealer selling cars at $500 over invoice, sell the car back to Mazda after one month and then buy a new one. You save over $3k (assuming you bought at sticker) and essentially have use of a brand new car for two months absolutely free.

Yes it sucks that the car doesn't have the original rated horsepower, yes it's nice that Mazda is doing something to make up for it and yes we can totally take advantage of it even if we want to keep the car.
________
Coach Handbags (http://icoachhandbags.com/)

In order to tell if this is a great opportunity for people like me who already love this car, I need to know what is going to be covered in the 4 years to follow. What type of free maint. I love this car but I paid for it in cash with almost every possible option. That's a lot of Cash. I do love the car But ...

look up page 8-5 in your owners manual.

From how I understand what was said, If you have a car on order, whether it is built or not, you will be able to take advantage of the program. It is extremely important though that you make sure your dealer has all you info in the customer information screen in his vehicle request report. This is what Mazda will use to determine those customers that have preordered cars. One other note, Mazda has requested that any dealer that has taken a deposit on an RX8 and the customer decides he does not want to purchase it, return that customers deposit without hesitation.

VERY dissappointed in Mazda. First their Halo car at the time, the Miata is down on power, now their new halo car is down on power.

At least it didnt Mazda as long to admit it as it did the Miata. The 01 miata issue went on for a couple months at least.

Budaman: from your perspective do you see this as a PR disaster for the company or 'just one of those things'?

Originally posted by mmjames
In order to tell if this is a great opportunity for people like me who already love this car, I need to know what is going to be covered in the 4 years to follow. What type of free maint. I love this car but I paid for it in cash with almost every possible option. That's a lot of Cash. I do love the car But ...

well if it is the same offer as the mazda it is for every maintenance as described in the owner s manual:
oil, oil filter, drain plug gasket, inspections, and labor at every 5,000 mile interval and at 30,000 mile you will also get air filter,spark plugs,m/t oil, rear diff oil. as well as tire rotations at every 3,750 miles. this is all from the miata program. it may be different for the rx-8.

I'm really sorry that some "idiots" refuse to believe eccles, who is just trying to add clarification to the posted HP issue. The PS (metric horsepower) vs. "American" HP, is explained here: Horsepower and Torque Explained (http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/020327.htm)

As in regards to people not knowing before they bought the vehicle, it is posted on the window sticker - 247 HP.

i don't think it's a PR disaster

as a matter of fact, this is good PR, in a 'Apollo 13' sort of way.

Mazda screwed up, they admit it in almost 'internet time', and gives out compensation to current owners without hesitation.

that says A LOT about MNAO regarding customer satisfaction.

as reference, how did Ford handle the '99 SVT Cobra power deficiency fiasco???

Originally posted by Lensman
Budaman: from your perspective do you see this as a PR disaster for the company or 'just one of those things'?

well people are still buying the miata!

Anyone know the time frame that Mazda gave the Miata owners to decide to sell back the cars?

the miata power issue did last for a few months...but the interesting thing is that i have not heard of any owner that sold their miata back to Mazda. the owners loved their cars that much. and i get the same feeling from the RX8 owners here. i know it is for me.

the power deficiency does not worry me. the effect on the possibility for a new 7 does.

santino

So it is down on power, that doesn't explain the anomolous curve in the dynos we've seen. Something is off in the 6250+ rev range compared to mazda's published dyno chart.

Another question is how about those who got theirs at a markup? If they do decide to give up the car, how would the buy back work then?

Not that I'm saying I would.. but it does question the mind.




Yes yes, I did pay some markup.

Originally posted by budaman
Hey gang, I'm back
First let me say I'm a little surprised at some of your reactions. It's the same car that you purchased and more than likely drove before you purchased and were obviously pleased with or you wouldn't have purchased it. You will be getting 4yrs or 50,000 miles of free service and $500 to boot. And if your really angry over the numbers, Mazda will buy it back from you. It's a no lose situation for you. This will also apply to anyone that has a vehicle on order and hasn't taken delivery. Just make sure your dealer gets your info to Mazda if its not in the Mazda system already. Personally, I think the car is a blast to drive whether they say it has 250 hp or 150 hp. Have fun with the car while your making your decision!

Well said... it looks to me like you guys got the Euro3 (240PS) ECU, in the UK we get Euro4 emissions (231PS) and that'll be just fine...

The first cars are not due to arrive here until late october, but I get to drive one tomorrow!!!

Originally posted by tribal azn2


PLEASE STOP YOUR COPY AND PASTING OVER AND OVER, LOOK, U HAVE ALREADY BEEN PROVEN WRONG


No, I'm pretty sure eccles is correct.

The documentation you have posted shows "250 hp". However there are two measurement standards for horsepower, one based on imperial units which is used in the US and UK (SAE horsepower) and one based on metric units (DIN horsepower) which is used in most of the rest of the world (including Japan).

A further complication is that DIN horsepower is sometimes referred to as PS from the German word for horsepower (Pferdstarker). But not always. It can, quite correctly be referred to as just hp.

Because both of these measurements can simply be described as hp then the "250 hp" on the original documentation is ambiguous and does not specify either metric or imperial horsepower.

The US website, last time I looked specified "247 hp (SAE)" but it originally said "250 hp". It just so happens that 250 (DIN) hp = 247 (SAE) hp. Coincidence? I doubt it. It seems extremely likely that the original figure was in DIN hp (or PS) - not surprising as this is probably what Mazda use internally.

speechless

Concerning the Miata buybacks, they were first offered to employees of MNAO. The ones that were left were either offered to the dealers as used cars or were sent to the auction. One other thing, when Mazda bought back a Miata, the customer had to sign a release saying they would not be able to turn around and purchase another one. Two other areas that will come into play, will be for those that paid over sticker price and who traded in a car they were upside down in. I don't know how that will play out but should be covered in the letter.

------------------------------------------------------------
well if it is the same offer as the mazda it is for
every maintenance as described in the owner s manual:
oil, oil filter, drain plug gasket, inspections, and labor
at every 5,000 mile interval and at 30,000 mile you will
also get air filter,spark plugs,m/t oil, rear diff oil.
as well as tire rotations at every 3,750 miles. this is
all from the miata program. it may be different for the rx-8.
------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks ibfubar2000

That's some good info. Looks like its a keeper for me.

OK, 250BHP (DIN) = 247BHP (PS)

These numbers are both "horsepower", so unless the document states if the "horsepower" measurement is DIN or PS then they can claim it's whichever they like.

PS is simply "Metric" horsepower...

I think it's incredibly stupid, but there you have it... Lets just forget HP as a measurement it's not much use anyway, gimme it in Kw any day... at least you know where you are then.

Originally posted by tribal azn2


PLEASE STOP YOUR COPY AND PASTING OVER AND OVER, LOOK, U HAVE ALREADY BEEN PROVEN WRONG




AND ALSO THIS

http://www.rx8forum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=102726



WERD TO YA MOTHA

Originally posted by eccles
B'man also said that these deficits are within the "normally-allowable" tolerance of 5%, but because we're as (or more) fanatical as the Miata community, they decided to make the offer as a show of good faith.

So, that would put it RIGHT ON the figure of 228HP ( 230PS) as advertised in Europe and the UK.

GRIN!

Kinda makes you think about giving it back and waiting till next year's model, when all will be well again... On top of that, there will be no more MSRP asking price.

I don't think it will be 247 next year either, it's probably "238" to stay. Until they do something else, maybe in 2 years, or mazda speed who knows.

I'm sure we'll get some ribbing though now, when the 350z is 287! That's a BIG difference now.

Originally posted by Wing
I don't think it will be 247 next year either, it's probably "238" to stay. Until they do something else, maybe in 2 years, or mazda speed who knows.

I'm sure we'll get some ribbing though now, when the 350z is 287! That's a BIG difference now.

Knowing from personal experience that Nisan ALSO lies about horsepower in N. America ( I am a former Spec V owner) I wonder what the 350Z ACTUALLY makes??

how much is it????
to answer this question if you give back your rx-8 you get no car back but you get no car payments and have to buy a new car
approx $32,000 goes to the bank to buy off the car only.
if you take the maintanence.
at our dealer it is aprrox $1,000 for all the maintenece. so you will get to keep your rx-8 and will get approx $1,500
again this is all just speculations complete exact totals may differ.

Originally posted by Wing
I don't think it will be 247 next year either, it's probably "238" to stay. Until they do something else, maybe in 2 years, or mazda speed who knows.

I'm sure we'll get some ribbing though now, when the 350z is 287! That's a BIG difference now.

yeah but look at the car style. co comparison. rx-8 is a hell of a lot better looking...imo

Now, my question is how much our cars will depreciate if we keep the car for 4-5 yrs? I know every car will depreciate but will this make it depreciate more? What happened to the Miata?

remember how Car and Driver did the comparo between G35 Coupe, SVT Cobra, and RX-8, and RX-8 only lagged behind the other 2 in lap times by only like a second and change?

now consider it's running almost 40 HP lower than the G35c!!!

it's doing more with less!!!

Well, I'm glad this is done. And I'm glad Mazda has come to the table and quickly offered to try to make this right.

I'm slightly disappointed, but on the way home today, I went over 600 miles and went ahead and redlined the car. I tell you -- it's fast enough for me! That was fun! This is a terrific car for me, and there's no way I'm giving it back. I got mine for $250 below MSRP, so I don't feel quite as cheated as some, and I knew from the start that in 6 months' time, I'd see the cars going for much less anyway. The free service will come in very handy. Frankly, I'm pleased.

Budaman, thanks for sharing this with us. It's good to have you around and willing to help out.

I have two questions:

- Is there any indication that Mazda will require people to take the car back to the dealer where they bought it to get the free service? Or will any Mazda dealer work?

- Will the owner of the RX-8 get to choose which maintenance schedule (1 or 2) they will follow?

Thanks!

Originally posted by loco4rx8


I have two questions:

- Is there any indication that Mazda will require people to take the car back to the dealer where they bought it to get the free service? Or will any Mazda dealer work?

- Will the owner of the RX-8 get to choose which maintenance schedule (1 or 2) they will follow?

Thanks!

1. any mazda dealer. the dealer will run your vin n umber in their system and it will show that the car is covered. any mazda dealer only though. cant go to independent shop.

2. you can choose, but you have to keep with 1 or the other you can not do both( yes miata owners have tried it does not work that way)

HI ibfubar2000,

where abouts is the dealership you work at? Cuz if Im going to bring it back to the dealership for service, I want to bring it to a good one!.

Thanx

Originally posted by bong
HI ibfubar2000,

where abouts is the dealership you work at? Cuz if Im going to bring it back to the dealership for service, I want to bring it to a good one!.

Thanx

browning in cerritos, CA.

First off, RX-8s are a near perfect blend of style, quality, performance, price and practical space IMO. A car that will be loved for many years to come by many owners long after luxury SUVs are considered rediculous dinosaurs of the past.
Second, if the current trend of 'aftermarket performance parts' offered by the dealerships continues into the Mazda/Mazdaspeed brand, you guys with $500 credits may be able to use that towards considerably more power returned in a Mazdaspeed exhaust or intake (or supercharger).
Third, the Renesis engines are 100% hand built (anybody that has ever rebuilt a rotary will understand why). There will be some minor tolerance issues, and varied outputs. BUT, and this is a big BUT (not BUTT), I still believe that given enough time the RX-8s currently making less than 190hp at the wheels will gain several horsepower as the engine breaks in even more, putting the output to within the 5% window of 247hp.
The ligher rotors of the Renesis engine means less actual inertial force of the apex seals= which translates into a longer break-in to maximum compression and maximum ourtput and maximum fuel economy (compression ratio= fuel economy) This may be what Mazda expected all along, but instead of trying to explain how the engine is so tough and overbuilt to modern piston engine standards that it will take 10k miles for anything close to maximum output, they decided to save face and refund some bucks when the internet frenzy was more than they ever expected (and seemingly mostly fueled by non-Mazda enthusiats). BUT, this also means that if it takes this long for the apex seals to wear to the housings, it also will take that much longer for the engine to wear out.:cool: Do you realize what that means? The Renesis engine could be a 9k rpm all day long engine that last much longer than even the best babied Honda engine. Now that is something to think about, and if true will transform Mazda into a worldclass pro sportcar manufacturer again.

Originally posted by ZoomZoomH

as reference, how did Ford handle the '99 SVT Cobra power deficiency fiasco???

they gave them the missing power


... i'd be more happy for a ecu tune job so I get the full power AND the gas milage I paid for... there is no reason for a fuel injected car to get 15mpg and have the whole rear of the car covered in black soot.

This is interesting. I paid a little too much for mine and i just got my updated insurance rates ($942 6mos in Daily City, CA for 2 drivers).

I will consider this and maybe get a miata. Under my budget the car payments are pretty steep. Looks like I get a get out of jail card for free. but the 8 is so badass makes it hard to part with.

What to do what to do...

So they "fixed" the horsepower number with less than 10 hp change ?!?! ( 247 -> 238 )

238 hp at the crank -> 180 hp at the wheels ?!? 58 hp drivetrain loss? yeah, right .... Mazda North America are full of crap these days ....

How can a Miata with the same power output as the RX-8 have just 26 hp drivetrain loss .... ?

Originally posted by antman_x
This is interesting. I paid a little too much for mine and i just got my updated insurance rates ($942 6mos in Daily City, CA for 2 drivers).

I will consider this and maybe get a miata. Under my budget the car payments are pretty steep. Looks like I get a get out of jail card for free. but the 8 is so badass makes it hard to part with.

What to do what to do...

Drive the shit out of it and then send it back for the refund. And then if you still want the car, buy a new one possibly cheaper.

I guess the word is out......

http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101436

As a RSX Type S owner, i love the RS-8. It looks SWEET!!!! The style and everything. I never had the chance to test drive one, so can't comment on the preformance.

But it really piss me off how companies lie to consumers like that. If they want to do business, at least be honest about their products!!!

Use your $ 500 to buy the K & N intake system. That will get you your HP!!!! 16 I believe.

Yup - this is a great idea. Get a new Miata without many extras - the price should be even under $20K.
And you start with a car which is much much more fun to drive than the RX-8.

Put in it a good MP62 supercharger kit (www.brperformance.net)
And it will be much faster than RX-8

Plus it has the advantage of being able to drop the top and enjoy the wind in your hair ...

The only disadvantages are the lack of the 2 extra seats if you have to carry people and the rotary engine smoothness and sound.

But in anything else sports car related and fun-to-drive the Miata beats the RX-8 ...

Originally posted by antman_x
This is interesting. I paid a little too much for mine and i just got my updated insurance rates ($942 6mos in Daily City, CA for 2 drivers).

I will consider this and maybe get a miata. Under my budget the car payments are pretty steep. Looks like I get a get out of jail card for free. but the 8 is so badass makes it hard to part with.

What to do what to do...

You just had to quote my typos, didn't ya.:( I can't type or spell to save my life, and after a hard day at work and five quick MGDs you'd think you would cut me some slack?;) Is that carple tunnel, or tennis elbow?

Ok, I have read alot about the Renesis enigne (with glee). Mazda engineers have said several times that the reliability of the Renesis will surpass the bulletproof 12a's of the 78-85 RX7s. Now I have an 176k mile all original (engine/trans) 85 Rx7, and I can take it too beyond seven grand daily and it never wimpers, misses or smokes. Even the non turbo 13b enignes were prone to flooding an other electronic problems that led to premature engine problems (overheated engines were not the fault of the engine, but poor service). But technology has come along way. That statement was not meant to be a cheap shot at Hondas, even though I have to admit to being slightly anti-Honda, because I am slightly anti-establishment, and Honda's have become cliche for reliable even when the reliability numbers show that they are only a small percentage better than most other competiing brands, and that Honda makes mistakes- that go mostly unreported by the media because Honda=good ,and the buying public would rather hear about Ford's mistakes since that fits into their already pre-formed stereotypes. But I digress, I like Honda cars- they are very well engineered for their distinct purposes. I looked at a used 99 Civic Si before realizing how overvalued it was..:mad:
Anywho, the compresssion statement was pure specualtion- but I based it at least on some logic.:D But I have been drinking. That makes six MGDs. Dang, I need to go hit some golf balls- my tee time is at eight in the morn .

Originally posted by Mazda Monkey
Use your $ 500 to buy the K & N intake system. That will get you your HP!!!! 16 I believe.

I hope K & N didn't lie about the hp too. 16hp? Just for a intake? I would be happy if it gains 6hp.

Yeah, right, an air intake will pull out 16hp of its a$$.
If air intake would make the car that much more powerful, don't you think Mazda will already have it installed.

All these intake hp claims are so laughable ... ;)

Originally posted by Mazda Monkey
Use your $ 500 to buy the K & N intake system. That will get you your HP!!!! 16 I believe.

I think if I were one of the guys that paid MSRP or even above sticker I would be paying my dealer a visit very soon. I would imagine this is going to cost Mazda millions and isn't a good thing for PR even though they are fixing it.

Ike

wow news travels fast

i have to agree with this guys comment tho:
"Doesn't Mazda own at least 1 fucking dyno?"

Originally posted by jmanolov
Yeah, right, an air intake will pull out 16hp of its a$$.
If air intake would make the car that much more powerful, don't you think Mazda will already have it installed.

All these intake hp claims are so laughable ... ;)



So those air intake kits they sell that are proven to work better on cars than the tock intakes are all fake huh? Come on man. Lighten up a bit and at least wait for it before you critisize it. Your assuming you know more about air intakes than a whole lotta people that do this. There's even been pictures of the prelim setup posted and hopefully soon dyno sheets.

Forgot to mention that Mazda has a vested interest in selling you new filters, etc sicne service is where the dealers really make money. SO a filter that you WONT have to be changing is not something they will be promoting too much.

Oh well, whatever. I know *I* will be getting it when it's out.

Zoom zoom.

It will indeed be interesting to see how this affects PR for Mazda. They were smart to catch this early and to "fix" it by placating their customers. They were also smart to time this on a Friday afternoon, rather than the middle of the week. Most folks take a break from the news and Internet on the weekends, so this should minimize damage on that front. I wonder if any major media outlets will pick up on this.

Yes, Mazda and the RX-8 are going to take some lumps from this but because all this took place before their major TV ad campaign (I assume one's coming ;) ) started, they may come out of it relatively unscathed as far as the general public is concerned.

I know I didn't even know about the Miata HP issue until a month or so ago when I started reading about it on this forum. So, I'm sure the general public had no idea.

probably didnt have a dyno at port and because the JDM spec emmissions couldnt pass so they had to make them all the slightly lower power, either way, 9hp doesnt bother me one bit, i got a great car that i LOVE (and thats still faster than most things on the street anyway...not like that matters at all though lol) and 500 bucks to boot
________
UNIMOG (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Unimog)

I am pretty sure the company know what the HP is, they are just not honest about it.

From the looks of some of the other forums this definitely isn't helping publicity. The word will only spread from there. Word of mouth is a very powerful advertising tool. The forum is even taking flak for not allowing people to just come in here and free range or cry like babies as I like to refer to it. It's only "officially" 13 horsepower but it may as well be 50 in the publics eye. When someone retunes the ecu so the car runs leaner, we'll see the power go back up. Emissions will get even lower then too so who knows what's up. 2nd gen n/a RX-7's get alot more power by leaning them out. Something tells me that we will see subsequent year models being available with more power. I was about to order a Gray one from Jeff Haas Mazda in Houston but now I'm not willing to pay sticker price anymore. Everyone else is getting the same car but getting free service and $500 spending money. I'm just going to wait until the price goes down or until a more powerful version (boosted?) comes out. If I do buy one now, there had better be some good incentive. It isn't so much the power problem that bothers me since I'll play with the car anyways. It's the lack of freebies that everyone else is getting that I won't have that is going to hold me back. Looks like the Civic (hate that car!) will have to stay around as daily driver a little longer. It gets double the gas mileage anyways.

im pretty sure mazda will come out of this fine, im just SLIGHTLY more concerned about a future rx-7 now, though.

however, like loco4rx8 said, since the major ad campaigns are yet to take off, i doubt it will be detrimental to rx-8 sales, and thus to the production of a future 7
________
latin girl Cams (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/latin-girls/)

Originally posted by rotarygod
From the looks of some of the other forums this definitely isn't helping publicity. The word will only spread from there. Word of mouth is a very powerful advertising tool.

Yeah, word of mouth is powerful. In this case, though, I'm of the opinion that most people just don't care about these numbers and certainly don't frequent these types of boards. We are some really cool people around here, but we're different from most. :D I just don't think Joe or Jane Shmo is going to ever hear about this and if they do, they probably won't really care much.

I hope I'm right anyway. This could get messy if Dateline or somebody got hold of it and ran a big story on Mazda, Ford, and other "deceitful" automobile companies.

I just really don't think Mazda has anything to hide here. They were wrong on the HP, and they admitted it. They are doing something to make it right with their customers. It's frustrating, but that's about it.

to avoid those that would sign up just to FLAME

those that do sign up usually have something better to say than "your car is slow!! muahahahhaha" (most of the time at least)

and it's working thus far :D

How long before dealers are aware of this news?

I dont want my dealer thinking I'm NUTS by even mentioning it.

Changing the intake + bigger exhaust (headers, midpipe, exhaust), and remapping the ECU or putting an aftermarket programmable ECU and few hours at the dyno might do a 16hp increase along with increased engine/exhaust noise.

But just an intake - yeah right - the Mazda engineers are NOT THAT STUPID. Most of these claimed hp numbers for intakes are pure BS and the main target is getting the ricers' money ...

The RX-8 is not a grocery getter with restricted air intake from the factory. If you want the horsepower - look into ripping out your ecology pieces and remapping the ECU with more aggresive maps ...


Originally posted by Genom


So those air intake kits they sell that are proven to work better on cars than the tock intakes are all fake huh? Come on man. Lighten up a bit and at least wait for it before you critisize it. Your assuming you know more about air intakes than a whole lotta people that do this. There's even been pictures of the prelim setup posted and hopefully soon dyno sheets.

Forgot to mention that Mazda has a vested interest in selling you new filters, etc sicne service is where the dealers really make money. SO a filter that you WONT have to be changing is not something they will be promoting too much.

Oh well, whatever. I know *I* will be getting it when it's out.

Zoom zoom.

What do those run $$$>? I am still playing with a set of 13 year old Ping knock offs.:mad: Great clubs for their time, but things have changed. And my right elbow has been giving me fits by the back nine. Still, I need longer shafts than standard (I am 6ft 5, with long legs) and these are a perfect lenght. But...... . .


Ok, how many people posting negative crap are actual RX-8 or even Mazda owners? I just can't believe an RX-8 owner would be so critical of a car with so much personality. Now, if you had buyer's remorse because you paid too much, I can understand why you might want be thinking about a buyback (personally, I would never pay more than MSRP far any vehicle. I something came out and I had to have it, but the dealers wanted an extra few grand over MSRP minimum, I would wait a few months and take a vacation with that extra cash- of course, I am not a 'first on the street' kind of guy. I really couldn't care less about my 'image'. Maybe that is why I have been a Mazda fan for so long- because Mazdas are about being fun to drive and not about image or horsepower). I wonder if the dealers who sold RX-8s at more than MSRP will be forced to refund the additional mark-up? Anywho, if you are an RX-8 owner and are considering the buy back option, drive your car for miles and miles over the next few weeks before you decide. It will give it more time for break in, and give you more time to understand the car beyond the media hype. After that, if you want to have it bought back, then why not. But then what do you buy to replace that car that you order just for you?

Either way, be true to yourself and don't let public opinion dictate what you do.:cool:

I was wondering how this all applies to people leasing the car?

Man, this is totally disappointing. Low gas mileage at a time of high gas prices!! -9 HP fiasco (ok, not the big a deal and they did fess up). And it is still faster than my current car. 238hp is plenty for most cars and I'm sure the RX-8 still flies. But, I keep wondering what else Mazda screwed up on with this car that will show up in a couple months. I'm having serious 2nd thoughts about buying this car. Yes, this issue has cost them at least one potential customer for the time being.

I'll drive my bimmer a few more years and see where the RX-8 (hopefully RX-7) is at that time. Have fun with your toys, they are still really kewl/interesting cars.

This has to be the fastest growing thread in a long time.

Anyway...If it really includes buying the car back at full price including fees and taxes I have a feeling I will be returning the car. With this little blunder here's my take:

1) there will be plenty of NEW 8's available BELOW MSRP and there will be plenty of deals to be had.

2) there will also be a few low mileage used ones

3) I can put the money in the bank and in a year get a "0" mileage new car and I would be willing to bet "cheaper".

4) Maybe my new one will get a MPG fix also


Although with the tires for life deal and free maintenance all I have to pay for is gas and insurance...hmmm.:confused:

Finally got home to find the fastest growing thread I've ever seen.

Personally everything worked out almost as I'd hoped. Best would have been for Mazda to say 'oops - fixed to be 247hp at first service'. The second best is to bribe me to be happy - and $500 and free servicing is perfect. I loved the car when I knew it was 247hp, and still loved it after we knew it to be 180rwhp, and even now when it is 238hp (a little optimistic as this means a 24% drivetrain loss) I am still happy. The worst would have been for Mazda to say and do nothing and pretend everything was OK.

My only worry is that I was hoping a HP fix would also give us a fuel economy improvement. Looks like I'm stuck with 17mpg.

So now that the observed lower horsepower has been addressed by Mazda, any word on whether the fuel efficiency (or rather, deficiency) complains are well-founded?

Originally posted by downshift
So now that the observed lower horsepower has been addressed by Mazda, any word on whether the fuel efficiency (or rather, deficiency) complains are well-founded?

If you really believe your car is not performing in the MPG area as advertised and rated after it is properly broke in, the have you local Mazda dealer do a MPG test.

Just an 'unrelated' note: My truck just got its best MPG EVER on its last tank (over 22mpg- half city/ half highway-0 and I don't baby it), and it just turned over 19k miles. Go figure. My carbed 85 rex's last tank was 15mpg- but it was ALL BACK ROAD BLASTS. This is my extra car, and I only drive it when I WANT to have FUN.:D I think 15mpg for driving that always has the gas or brake peddle to the floor is pretty darn good, especially for a 18-19 year old 176k mile carbed 'unreliable' rotary.:p

Since here in OZ we have already been downgraded from original
184 KW AND 216NM TO the now 177KW AND 211NM I am hoping we stay with those figures .

MAZDA THAT USED TO OPERATE THEIR BUSSINESS BY WAY OF BUSHIDO (HONOUR CODE OF JAPANESE WARRIOR ) KNOW SEEMS TO BE OPERATING THEIR BUSSINES (BY WAY OF DECEPTION )

Its dissapointing that it takes the consumer to get mazda to wrigth their wrongs.

Dont regulatorie bodies check on engine power outputs , its hard to believe that mazda has once again mistakenly gave the comsumers wrong figures.

You would think that it could not have won ENGINE OF THE YEAR AWARDS WHITOUT THE ENGINES BEING PROPERLY TESTED.

I will contact mazda OZ on monday and see what they say about the rx8 in OZ I hope we dont get downgraded once again.

Its good to see Mazda fess up. Although it pains me to see the poor numbers. I was kind of hoping we would see results like the newest Cobra. A lot of owners are seeing RWHP that is the same as flywheel claims. I was hoping Mazda would do the same with the 8 and give lower #'s in the press. Does everyone remember a long time ago when the 8 was projected to have 280HP. It never stopped dropping. I was getting really pissed evertime the "Provisional Target" was dropped lower.

My reason for being here is because a member of this site made an ass out of himself on NoPistons and got banned ripping me a new butthole.

http://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22684

See for yourself. I have one thing to say to this guy. Your right Mazda did come out with a big announcement but not quite what you expected was it?? I want to call you names right now but will refrain so as to remain within the forum rules.

I wanted a RX-8 but I would not buy the first ones out I wanted to wait and see if they were liked by their new owners. Specifically RX-7 owners. Then I heard Mazdaspeed was working on a special edition. So I was waiting for that.

I decided on a CooperS Works addition to buy until the Mazdaspeed 8 arrives. I hope Mazda can turn this around. I really like the 8 a lot. I like the back seats mostly. It pains me to leave my 7 at home when the family is comig along.


I really wanted Mazda to build a Corvette Killer. Looks like I will just have to keep building them myself. I heard some one here put a 20B in the 8 awesome idea.

Originally posted by Lock & Load

You would think that it could not have won ENGINE OF THE YEAR AWARDS WHITOUT THE ENGINES BEING PROPERLY TESTED.


In the letter we received with our Thermos/Coffee mug gift it says in reference to the award/engine:

"...officially rating the all newRX-8 at 247-horsepower for cars equipped with manual transmission (that's 7 more horses than the test engine used in the competition)..."

From how I understand what was said, If you have a car on order, whether it is built or not, you will be able to take advantage of the program. It is extremely important though that you make sure your dealer has all you info in the customer information screen in his vehicle request report. This is what Mazda will use to determine those customers that have preordered cars. One other note, Mazda has requested that any dealer that has taken a deposit on an RX8 and the customer decides he does not want to purchase it, return that customers deposit without hesitation.

Just in case some people missed this in the ever growing thread. My mom ordered her car at the beginning of this month, she should be able to receive the $500 correct?

From info posted so far, yes. It seems that anybody that ordered up to a certain date that I think I saw was August 26.

just great!....do u guys think this is the end of the rotary?:mad:

That's good news for my mom, it saves her some money. I was like "Well, you could choose to take your deposit back or you can keep the order and take what Mazda's offering." Without hesitation, she's taking the car and the offer. Didn't even think twice.

I have a $500 deposit down and my car is built, currently on water and is due in Sept week 2. Was expecting to pay MSRP.

So you think I have any room to negotiate now?

What about since I ordered the AT? Still negotiate?

Originally posted by OmegaBob
I have a $500 deposit down and my car is built, currently on water and is due in Sept week 2. Was expecting to pay MSRP.

So you think I have any room to negotiate now?

What about since I ordered the AT? Still negotiate?

I would certainly think you'd have excellent room to negotiate. Won't hurt to try anyway. Just tell them you know about the hp issue and that the hp that the engine is now rated at is not what you ordered. They almost HAVE to listen to you. You may not get much, but I feel sure you'll get something. Good luck!

New HP numbers are now present on the Mazda USA site.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/handleHomeFlash.action?vehicleCode=RX8&modelYear=2004

Oh my god. Oh crap. This is very very bad news. How could they not get good rating. Crappy crap. Everyone will now say, it'll be good if RX8's rating stays up to 238 since it has been change many times now. Automatic now under 200 HP. Are they crazy? Now its not even worth buying it. I mean it used to be reated higher than TSX, prelude, etc. and now its lower. Mazda should just shoot them selves in the head. I mean mazda6, and all other mazdas were fine. What about RX7? It didnt have any stupid problems like this. I just dont get it. Argh... Good thing I didnt get one. I guess Mazda6 is still better choice. Shame on you mazda. If I bought RX8 I would ask them to take off like $1000 at least from MSRP price.


*EDIT: I was wondering did Nissan, Honda, or Toyota ever make a mistake like this? If so, on which cars?

Originally posted by Haris
Oh my god. Oh crap. This is very very bad news. How could they not get good rating. Crappy crap. Everyone will now say, it'll be good if RX8's rating stays up to 238 since it has been change many times now. Automatic now under 200 HP. Are they crazy? Now its not even worth buying it. I mean it used to be reated higher than TSX, prelude, etc. and now its lower. Mazda should just shoot them selves in the head. I mean mazda6, and all other mazdas were fine. What about RX7? It didnt have any stupid problems like this. I just dont get it. Argh... Good thing I didnt get one. I guess Mazda6 is still better choice. Shame on you mazda. If I bought RX8 I would ask them to take off like $1000 at least from MSRP price.

:o The sky is falling! The RX-8 is a piece of crap! It's no good at all, someone please take mine away -- I will trade it to you for a bag of potatoes and some marbles.

Originally posted by loco4rx8


:o The sky is falling! The RX-8 is a piece of crap! It's no good at all, someone please take mine away -- I will trade it to you for a bag of potatoes and some marbles.

No, I still like RX8 and it's very cool, but come on, honestly, what the heck was mazdas problem. This would be same if Nissan claimed 350 HP on 350z, or Honda rated S2000 at 280 HP. By some time, mazda will tell people Manual version is rated at 210 HP and auto at 170 HP. I'd hate to see this happen.

I'm just playing with you, Haris.

It's frustrating for people, and I don't know what Mazda's problem is with this kind of thing. It's truly puzzling. Surely, they knew people would be dyno'ing their cars and would find out. That's why it's hard for me to accept the idea that this was intentional deceit. I tend to think this has to do with the emissions, but even that leaves questions, such as "why didn't they know the car wouldn't meet US emissions standards before they claimed 247hp?"

Still, I think they've stepped up and addressed this one. I, for one, am happy with the car's performance, regardless of the HP rating. Now, what would upset me is if the engine turns out to be unreliable. That would be far worse than overrating the horsepower, as far as I'm concerned.

This is most disappointing. My car is due in next week and I wonder if the $500 credit and free service will apply since I haven't purchased the car yet. What is more disconcerting is that even the hp reduction doesn't explain the dyno results, that is the fall off in power and torque at 6250rpm. It doesn't explain why this happens way before 8500rpm. Something still just doesn't seem right about all of this. It is inexplicable to me that Mazda would commit the same sin with the 8 as they did with the Miata in 2000. Someone should be commiting hari kari in Japan about right now or doing the "Hyundai swan dive" over this. I still want my car but think this error is all but unforgivable. Ok, so I probably won't notice the difference in daily driving, but it still bothers me that Mazda would do this for a second time. The Ford solution to the Mustang error would be much more acceptable. Think about it. When the Aurthur Anderson folks involved with Enron lied, they went to jail. This is corporate malfeasence of the highest order particularly since it happened once before and the mea culpas in the form of a $500 credit and free service really don't cut it as far as I'm concerned. Damn, this is really disappointing.:( :( :( :( :( :(

Well at mazda's website, it still says 160 HP!

Well this explains the hold up at the port. I think they knew about this even before anyone took delivery of their cars. The good thing is that the PCM is flashable so it won't be long before we have more than 247hp. Mazda if you're reading this [and you know you are] you can anonymously send me the bin's for the 247hp map, how to write it to the PCM and we can forget about the $500.00. :D :D :D

The MAzda Canada website still states 247 hp for the M/T and 207 hp for the A/T. I wonder when they're going to change that!

That's the point, people~ It's not about the car but the company that sells it. Mazda USA has a rather poor track record when it comes to consumer service, advertisement honestly and they have a bad habit of making exaggerated claims they know full well they cannot back up. Don't tell me a fleet of RX-8 test mules that have been running around Irvine in the last 6 months and they just figured out there is a power deficiency 2 days ago - impossible. They knew the car did not make 247hp but decided to advertise it as such to get attention. (Gotta admit though, it does make a difference because even the new Accord and Altima are rated at 240+hp and so is the S2000. ) This is unexcusable coming from a large coorporation such as Mazda USA, and the fact that they have done it before makes it even more rediculous.

Now the next question: If they lied about the power rating and needed to be 'caught' to admit the truth, then how can they be trusted? What next? Do we have to question the fuel efficiency, reliability and safety of this car since they can't even be trusted with the most basic power rating~

We have the same doubts Skyline Maniac. I posted my concerns over in this thread...

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9355&pagenumber=2

Well, I think people here are intelligent enough to make a choice on their own. They dont need to be spoon fed others opinions. Credit people you dont know with having at least as much intelligence as yourself I always say. Wish some people here would try the same courtesy.

Being that I'm not an owner of an RX-8, I can't express my frustration towards this terrible news, but I wanted you guys to know that you have my empathy.

To put it lightly, I'd be pissed as shit after spending that kind of money.

Originally posted by rx7 rage
just great!....do u guys think this is the end of the rotary?:mad:


I think that all depends on sales from here on out and reliability.
I for one was really excited about the RX-8, saw the numbers in some mags was a little disappointed especially that is wasn't a lightweight car, saw the best motoring video, saw the dynos, each little thing made me wonder... Saw the dyno results, then I went a drove the car, I found it to be a fun nice car but unimpressive in the power department, but was still thinking eh it would be a fun car for my firlfriend to get and I could drive it now and a again. This is it for me, with some of the screwy problems people have been having (cels, oil lights, awful gas mileage. etc.) and now the release from Mazda I don't want to touch the car with a 10 ft. pole.

I'll stick with my good ole tried and true pistons thank you very much. I'll still admire the car for being different and also for being a good looking car, but only as long as it's in someone elses driveway.


Ike

You know, I don't think I can handle all of this in one day! I was planning on a "night run" tonight; you know, that's when you go out on a quiet major freeway without the cops around and you fold in your mirrors to make sure you max out the top speed you can achieve in your RX-8 after the break-in period is over... Well I was getting ready for the run tonight when I read about the horsepower thing from Mazda. Oh my God! My night run will be ruined! I am really pissed.
Well, I thought I would take it on the run anyway and then turn the car in Monday and get my money back. I thought, "I'll show these mothers"!
Of course I wasn't expecting the car to perform as advertised. I checked out the road and it was clear no cars, no cops, no bumps and clear weather. After warming it up, I got right after it; first gear, red line, second gear, redline third gear, red line, fourth gear, red line all in a few moments. Holly shit! 122 MPH and two gears to go! Oh my God! I might break the sound barier or at least get a BIG TICKET if I keep this up. Steady Boy, ease off the throttle...
Let me see if I understand this Mazda offer thing... If I give them $500 bucks and do all my own maintenance or pay double for it, I get to keep this fabulous car or I can be a complete idiot and give it back to them and get back what I paid for it. Is this the deal???
If it is, I think I'll pay the $500 and keep it because I wouldn't want anyone else to have the fun I've had so far.
If this is the case, you will have to remove this car form my dead cold hands...:D

Originally posted by fips
OR when 2004 rx-8s come out with the corrected hp of a true 247 hp at the same price that you paid for the 2003 sub (who knows what the real rating is now) 247hp.


Uhh these are 2004 RX-8's :confused:

My modded 1.8T has more power than that(193whp on a 1.8L small turbo)...wtf...

I was dreaming about getting 280hp with 18% drivetrain lost at the wheels...but now...its like 22% on 239hp(and it stated 238hp on
http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/handleHomeFlash.action?vehicleCode=RX8&modelYear=2004)

....that really sucks...

anyway...a-spec mazdaspeed is won the race? I am VERY INTERESTED in seeing the dyno graph of THAT car.

theres NO WAY a 180rwhp car with 3000pounds kick a S2000 ass on the best motoring favorite track...
________
Honda CMX450C (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_CMX450C)

Does anyone else get the feeling they initially lied about numbers?

The Automotive press seemed to hint that, it wasn't feeling as strong as: "250/hp?"

My guess is the number was exaggerated just to draw interest and put the rotary back on the market, hoping owners will love the car enough not to get rid of it.

Mazda should at least offer a discount to first year owners for Mazdaspeed parts as well.

Originally posted by Elevation8

Mazda should at least offer a discount to first year owners for Mazdaspeed parts as well.

How about a free Mazdaspeed exhaust upgrade to raise the power to the 247hp claim?

Now that suggestion I like.

First off - kudos to this forum and its members - who can prolly take a large part of the credit for causing Mazda to buckle.

For me, this could work out nicely. I prefer to do all my own maintenance & I regret not getting the NAV installed. But, the car is a phreak on wheels & I can't imagine NOT having an RX-8. So, I'll likely opt for the buyback, then repurchase a new one w/ NAV. I might even change colors. Hell by the time Mazda is done with their screwups I might can cycle through all the colors.

Now, I wonder when they will fess up on their other major false claim: MPG

I really don't see what all the fuss is about. SOOO WHAT!!!

All you cry babies return your car! Go buy an S2000 or that SRT-4 or a used camero.

BFD . Even if the horses were there the car would still be bested by the z350, S2000, WRX STi, EVO, and other pure race cars in a drag race.

I'm for sure going to keep mine take my 5 bills and 4 yrs maint and keep smiling. Don't know why I even considered returning the car.

'Nuff said out of me. Let the whining continue...

EDIT: sorry for the double post :o

Originally posted by astrlsrfr
Now, I wonder when they will fess up on their other major false claim: MPG

This is not a false claim. There are people on this forum, including myself, who are getting the EPA estimate. Seems to me that it is either driving-style related or there was an early batch of cars that have a problem.

If there are individual cars with a problem, the owners need to take them to the dealer and have them work on it.

For what it's worth, I have ALWAYS gotten above the EPA highway estimate on my cars. After admittedly only two fillups, I'm optimistic that I will at least be able to achieve 24 mpg when I want to.

First I don't think that Mazda lied or misformed no one.

Pure and simple is that the whole fiasco was caused by a stricter US emissions standard. That had to inform the consumer that the HP's changed, which they did. I do believe that Mazda engineers DID have an accurate HP rating at the flywheel BEFORE this car had to enter the U.S. It's my belief that because of emissions, the ECU had to be remapped (Euro3 ECU) to meet the stricter U.S. emissions. There was a rumor that the cars were held up at port for something dealing with emissions. That looks now to be true.

The original HP (247) is there and always will be, it is just de-throttled by a detuned ECU or other emissions related crap.

As a matter of fact, I think the original 280HP is there from the RX-EVOLV concept car. It is just being harnessed and, IMO, will eventually be unleashed by after-factory mods.

Originally posted by boowana

If this is the case, you will have to remove this car form my dead cold hands...:D

You called this one right! :D

Originally posted by loco4rx8

This is not a false claim. There are people on this forum, including myself, who are getting the EPA estimate. Seems to me that it is either driving-style related or there was an early batch of cars that have a problem.


From my perspective (15 MPG avg, 1100 miles total) - the MPG claim is MOST DEFINITELY false. I drive as sane as anyone, my friend. I'm pretty sure that the 18-24 claim was supposed to apply to ALL RX-8s, including mine.

Having said that, there's yet another reason for me to take the buyback & get a new one - assuming your theory about a "bad batch" is right and the probelm has now been contained.

Originally posted by RX-8 Zoomster
First I don't think that Mazda lied or misformed no one.

The original HP (247) is there and always will be, it is just de-throttled by a detuned ECU or other emissions related crap.

As a matter of fact, I think the original 280HP is there from the RX-EVOLV concept car. It is just being harnessed and, IMO, will eventually be unleashed by after-factory mods.

Eh~ factory stock VQ35DE engine from the 350Z... some Japanese company took out the engine, hooked it up to a dyno with radiator, wide open exhaust and intake and the thing made well over 320hp. Does that mean Nissan should go around advertising the Nissan Altima at 320hp and simply 'detuned' to 245 because of emission? It's the same engine, you know~ ;)

Originally posted by boowana
...Let me see if I understand this Mazda offer thing... If I give them $500 bucks and do all my own maintenance or pay double for it,

What???!!??

...or I can be a complete idiot and give it back to them and get back what I paid for it. Is this the deal???
If it is, I think I'll pay the $500 and keep it because I wouldn't want anyone else to have the fun I've had so far.


What??!??!

Complete idiot for enjoying a car for 2 months or more putting 2000 plus miles on it and selling it back for the same amount I paid...hmmm sounds like something an idiot would do.

Originally posted by astrlsrfr


From my perspective (15 MPG avg, 1100 miles total) - the MPG claim is MOST DEFINITELY false. I drive as sane as anyone, my friend. I'm pretty sure that the 18-24 claim was supposed to apply to ALL RX-8s, including mine.

Having said that, there's yet another reason for me to take the buyback & get a new one - assuming your theory about a "bad batch" is right and the probelm has now been contained.

I didn't make the point I was trying to make -- if there are some cars that have a fuel economy problem, then they need to be fixed. But that is not the same as saying that ALL cars have lower horsepower than advertised. That is a false claim. The MPG issue is a problem with some cars, not all of them. I don't know if there's a bad batch or not, just an idea.

I'm sorry you're having the problem and hope it's resolved, or that you get what you want if you decide to sell the car back.

gas mileage DOES improve as engine gets more mileage on them.

my Protege (yeah i know it's not a rotary, but bear with me) got consistently crappy mileage (22mpg when it should be between 24-29mpg) for the good part of the 1st year I owned the car. But around 10,000 miles, just all of a sudden, gas mileage jumped to about 25mpg in mixed city/hwy driving, and I have yet to dip below 24mpg since (24mpg when I have A/C on most of the time in a tank).

so I wouldn't hold a knife to Mazda demanding an explanation to gas mileage just yet.

also, gasoline composition can greatly affect mileage as well. Winter gas tends to get worse gas mileage than summer gas, and sometimes gas in big cities get worse mileage than something you get in the suburbs.

ok i'm done with my non-rotary rant :D

Originally posted by pelucidor
I loved the car when I knew it was 247hp, and still loved it after we knew it to be 180rwhp, and even now when it is 238hp (a little optimistic as this means a 24% drivetrain loss) I am still happy. The worst would have been for Mazda to say and do nothing and pretend everything was OK.


I totally agree with you here.

I relayed this news, of the lower HP to my wife, and asked her, just out of curiosity since she is the only one to drive our car, which option would she take - keep the car with the free service and $500 or sell it back. Her response was "no way would we return the car". "This car is freakin fast already". "Since the car is almost perfect, the free schedule maintenance is icing on the cake"

I think quite a few that already own the car would agree with her statements.

On a related note, did anyone notice all the new posters (5 posts or less) that suddenly "joined" this club, and surprising have nothing good to say, except to flame Mazda and the car we own. A good reason why this club requires one to join. I can't imagine being part of an owner's forum that would have unbridled control of who could post. That would be an open invitation to all the flamers. Definately more than we see now.

Originally posted by Genom


So those air intake kits they sell that are proven to work better on cars than the tock intakes are all fake huh? Come on man. Lighten up a bit and at least wait for it before you critisize it. Your assuming you know more about air intakes than a whole lotta people that do this. There's even been pictures of the prelim setup posted and hopefully soon dyno sheets.

Zoom zoom.

I assume by this statement that you have never owned a car and added an aftermarket cold air intake unit then?
I have.
They DO add power.
Often a LOT of power.
And they are LOUD.
VERY LOUD.
An intake howl sounds kind of neat, but not what a new car manufacturer considers to be acceptable form the noise level point of view.
At least not what most makers feel is acceptable (unless they are Ferrari, perhaps!)

The typical air intake assembly is a marvelous piece of work designed to tune out resonance, noise and objectionable rasp, while not removing TOO much power.

IF you are willing to live with a substantial amount of noise at full throttle, by all means change the air intake.

Originally posted by Haris
*EDIT: I was wondering did Nissan, Honda, or Toyota ever make a mistake like this? If so, on which cars?

The last large fiasco was conducted by Ford motor on their Mustang Cobras. The one before that was Miata. Kind of interesting how Ford is now Mazda's parent company and they seem to stick to the same cook book. The new Altima also has a problem with power rating, seems that the car exceeds the 240hp claim and routinely puts down dyno numbers that would suggest a 250hp engine. ;) This enabled Nissan to raise the power claim on the 2003 Altima to 245hp without having to do anything~ Sweet deal if you ask me.

Do you guys think that Mazda will try to get the HP back up to 248 when they realease the 2005 model. Or do you think they will just stick with the RX-8 only putting out 239HP. What happend with the Miata? Did they keep it the same the next year or fix it.

I think they will attempt to recover the 250hp rating by 2004, either through ECU tuning or more likely intake/exhaust efficiency. Mazda is going to NEED that number to compete in the US market. Remember, Accord and Altimas are already making 240+hp, and the Legacy will be 250hp. This is the second coming of the muscle car, and for better or worse people look at the power ratings and take it into serious consideration when they buy a new performance oriented car.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac


Eh~ factory stock VQ35DE engine from the 350Z... some Japanese company took out the engine, hooked it up to a dyno with radiator, wide open exhaust and intake and the thing made well over 320hp. Does that mean Nissan should go around advertising the Nissan Altima at 320hp and simply 'detuned' to 245 because of emission? It's the same engine, you know~ ;)

Don't be ridiculous. No they shouldn't.

Obviously something happened at import, that caused Mazda to detune this engine. And I think it is nothing but emissions, as I stated earlier. Whether it was a more recent and stricter emissions standard that had to be met, looks like Mazda had to use a different ECU (Euro3 ECU perhaps?) among other things. Do I still find some fault in Mazda for not knowing the expected emission standards earlier? Yes, but I'm satisfied with the performance of this vehicle already, and as I stated before, I am not overly disappointed because I didn't buy my car based on the HP number. As a matter of fact, my trust in Mazda is strengthened because of their amends to the current owners.

All manufacturers advertised ratings are subject to change, usually an asterick to a fine print. Mazda revised the rating noted the change on their website. With present owners, they are making amends. I applaude the on that fact.

I really appreciated your more recent and sincere posts, before you found out Mazda revised the HP numbers. I know you are providing a point to argue or debate wanting but don't start making posts to flame or provoke an altercation.

Yes, I am a new poster to the board but I have been following the discussions for months and am an avid Mazda fan, and remain so even after all of this. Everyone buys cars for different reasons. If you bought this car for power or fuel efficiency you should have spent your money elsewhere. If power was one of the reasons I can emphathize. Bottom line to me is that you still have a fantastic looking car, that is functional, more than adequately quick, handles great and is unique.

On a slightly different note, I have noticed some comments regarding Mazda Canada not having changed their website, which still says 247hp. I am wondering whether, if this is a US emissions problem, the Canadian models did not have their mapping changed and are still at 247hp? Possible I guess. Comments?

Originally posted by broose
The MAzda Canada website still states 247 hp for the M/T and 207 hp for the A/T. I wonder when they're going to change that!

As of 4:00 p.m. today, Mazda Canada still was claiming there is no problem.
I know because I called them and asked.

hmm, any canadian owners care to put their rx-8 on a dyno?

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac


The last large fiasco was conducted by Ford motor on their Mustang Cobras. The one before that was Miata. Kind of interesting how Ford is now Mazda's parent company and they seem to stick to the same cook book.

You know what they say about Ford?

"They circle their mistakes"

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
I think they will attempt to recover the 250hp rating by 2004, either through ECU tuning or more likely intake/exhaust efficiency. Mazda is going to NEED that number to compete in the US market. Remember, Accord and Altimas are already making 240+hp, and the Legacy will be 250hp. This is the second coming of the muscle car, and for better or worse people look at the power ratings and take it into serious consideration when they buy a new performance oriented car.

I agree. I think we'll see the recovered HP from Mazda. At least from third-party manufacturers.

As a matter of fact, as I stated in one of my earlier posts on this thread or another (don't remember now), I think the 280HP that was present, with the same engine, on the RX-EVOLV concept is still there. It just being harnessed and needs to be unleashed. I think you'll definately see that from after-factory mods.

The fact that the European spec RX-8 is rated at 228 hp in the latest Evo magazine from England should be noted. If the RX-8 is making 175 wheel horsepower on a dynojet dyno and 157 wheel horsepower on a dyno dynamics dyno then this leads me to beleive that the car is only delivering around 210 horsepower to the flywheel. 115 pound foot of torque at the wheels at 6300 rpm is not very impressive either, and certainly not what was quoted by Mazda.
Overall Mazda has once again screwed the pooch and the fact that they are not offering to fix the lost horsepower and once again throwing $500 to owners is quite pathetic. What happened to the 280 horsepower this motor was making in pre-production cars? Thank goodness the new RX-7 will have a 1.6 litre motor as it is "rated" at 300 horsepower. Perhaps that motor will make the 250 horsepower this Renesis is rated at.

But we will probably never get to see the RX-7 as the RX-8 will likely die a quick death because of this scandal. The 6 speed RX-8 is not making 250 or even 239 horsepower, but 210 just like the automatic. That is unacceptable and Mazda should find the missing ponies. Or tell everyone that it made a huge mistake and drop the price $5000 and try to sell it as a 210 horsepower car. That would at least be honest.

Thor.

For RX-8 owners:

If you loved your RX-8 yesterday there is no reason to love it any less today. Its looks, performance and reliability are still the same.

If you don't like the car, you just received a gift from heaven (a $0 out).


For RX-8 owners-to-be:

Wait for your test-drive. Unless you plan to use the car in competition, I will bet you will never miss those 9HP. The car still performs as well as all those reviews you have been reading.


My opinion, for consideration:

I have owned Mazda rotary products for over 30 years and have never been delt with unethically. The proposed settlement is actually more than fair compensation for something that is technically missleading but has liittle actual product impact.

Originally posted by ZoomZoomH
hmm, any canadian owners care to put their rx-8 on a dyno?

After I get about 3,000km on mine I plan to.

I am also not going to accept the offer of free service and $500

The offer is in the USA where they get:

An extra year of warranty.
4 years in USA, whereas in Canada we get 3.

$500 USD is worth $705 Canadian as of todays exchange rates.

I feel, they are going to have to do better than this.

The deficiencies are worth more than that first offer.

We are in the drivers seat in this negotiation, people.
They have been caught at an act of dishonesty, so please, let's not just pee all over our feet and say "Ooh, we caught them and they admitted it, AND we get a few dollars back, isn't that nice?"

That power level takes this car out of the $40,000 class and drops it into the Toyota Celica GT-S class.

The Toyota Celica GT is a $33,245 car, Canadian list.

I picked Toyota, as they are the most expensive brand of Japanese cars in Canada, and are even being investigated for price fixing.
http://adserver.dnps.com/html.ng/Site=Autocom&Size=120x90&Category=Homepage&Topic=Industry

There's one illogical conclusion floating around:
If the car was reprogrammed at the port to meet US emissions laws and as a result the power of the Renesis dropped then why are Mazda standing by the performance figures that were achieved with the pre-production cars? Either they know that legally they can take the hit if 0-60 in 5.9 is false OR the engine WASN'T remapped and was simply described wrongly by Mazda's marketing department. But if the latter is the case then why is the engine still 247bhp in Japan and Canada? There are logical flaws all through this situation and not enough answers (like WHY is the car low on bhp?).

Originally posted by msrecant
For RX-8 owners:

If you loved your RX-8 yesterday there is no reason to love it any less today. Its looks, performance and reliability are still the same.

If you don't like the car, you just received a gift from heaven (a $0 out).


How about they either give us what we paid for. a 250HP car, not a 228hp car.
We all know that the new 238hp figure is still hopelessly optimistic.
A more realistic offer from them would be either to fix it, or to give us back about $3,000
That is in line with the cars value at that performance level.

[i]
I have owned Mazda rotary products for over 30 years and have never been delt with unethically. The proposed settlement is actually more than fair compensation for something that is technically missleading but has liittle actual product impact.
You are one of the lucky ones, or hopelessly optimistic.
I too have owned a few Mazdas over the years:
RX-3: 3 replacement engines on the hidden warranty
MPV: New cam belts every 60,000km, at my expense.
A new transmission at 100K, at my expense ($3,000)
And I was not "lucky" enough to have bought their last lie: a 2001 Miata.

Originally posted by msrecant
For RX-8 owners:

If you loved your RX-8 yesterday there is no reason to love it any less today. Its looks, performance and reliability are still the same.

If you don't like the car, you just received a gift from heaven (a $0 out).


For RX-8 owners-to-be:

Wait for your test-drive. Unless you plan to use the car in competition, I will bet you will never miss those 9HP. The car still performs as well as all those reviews you have been reading.


My opinion, for consideration:

I have owned Mazda rotary products for over 30 years and have never been delt with unethically. The proposed settlement is actually more than fair compensation for something that is technically missleading but has liittle actual product impact.

msrecant ,

Thank you for your very refreshing post, amidst the pessimists, flamers, doubters and nay-sayers.

I agree, a very minute few will notice the missing 9 HP. The car is still performing 0-60 times as tested in pre-production. What has changed for this car to be now labeled as a POS to some? The stated HP number. IMO, it's nothing but a placebo effect to those hung up on the HP number alone.

Originally posted by canzoomer
How about they either give us what we paid for. a 250HP car, not a 228hp car.

I am being curious (not confrontational) when I ask why do you feel you have been cheated? Prior to yesterday, did you feel the car was slower that it should be? Would the extra 22HP make the car more fun to drive for you?

Originally posted by RX-8 Zoomster


msrecant ,

Thank you for your very refreshing post, amidst the pessimists, flamers, doubters and nay-sayers.

I agree, a very minute few will notice the missing 9 HP. The car is still performing 0-60 times as tested in pre-production. What has changed for this car to be now labeled as a POS to some? The stated HP number. IMO, it's nothing but a placebo effect to those hung up on the HP number alone.

They lied in saying it had 247HP
Now they claim 238, and are almost certainly still lying, and you are satisifed with that?

You must really enjoy getting sand kicked in your face.

At this point I think a more pragmatic approach is to expect them to either fix it, or to offer us a more realistic settlement of around $2,500 US ( $3,500 Canadian).

The car is still performing 0-60 times as tested in pre-production

Why is everyone so quick to buy this? Because Mazda's official word was akin to "Well, we got the numbers out of SOME of the RX-8s tested"? What, did they modify the cars to get the numbers?

I live 45 minutes away from Fontana and Pomona in So. Cal, so I'm frequently at the track with friends. The only time I've seen an 8 there, it ran poorly (well, relative to what its "supposed" to run).

I'll say it once, I'll say it again.... I think C&D is a corupt POS excuse for a magazine. The Z isnt running 0-60 at 5.4, and the 8 isnt running at 5.9.

I'm curious, what if Mazda was to offer a third incentive (a second incentive to keep the car actually);

1) Maintenance and $500
2) Payback
3) Have Mazda install a supercharger for 1/2 the cost and "support" it. (or something to 'chkconfig rx8 faster', if you catch my drift [eh heh, get it, drift ... chkconfig .. hehe ... oh well :) ])

I think if this was an available choice, everyone would jump on it and NOT return the car. For those buying a new RX8, well, they'll make it a $10,000 performance option.

I feel happy that Mazda is willing to do this (again) .. how many other countless business and corporation deny, lie and/or cheat to get out of "sticky" situations (ie. tobacoo). Ethically, Mazda did an ethical thing ...

As for me, I'm pondering if I should keep it ONLY because I hate my manager at work and having debt while in this dilemma isn't a comforting feeling, even if it is an RX8. So, I would hope those returning the vehicle would do it for other reasons outside Mazda, ethics and the empirical HP #s which mean nothing in the end; whereas the enjoyment and "happiness" that you get from driving the car, is.

Toodles ... I love my RX8; I hate my manager; I'll have to figure this one out but at least driving my RX8 makes me leave work faster!

alex

i am keeping it, but holy shit...

can someone define "free scheduled maintaince" please

as in like Audi? bumper to bumper free everything (labor, parts and rental)

or the usual free parts maintainence? but pay labor?(100 bucks for an oil change cuz they use a flash light to check your blinker fluid)

and i take it anything unschedule is still cover by warranty?

Originally posted by alex
I feel happy that Mazda is willing to do this (again) .. how many other countless business and corporation deny, lie and/or cheat to get out of "sticky" situations (ie. tobacoo). Ethically, Mazda did an ethical thing ...


You are happy that this scandal has happened again?

This should not have happened in the first place. If you are just happy that there is compensation then you are missing the whole point.

It is not about the small HP change or the fact that the RX8 still drives the same as did yesterday, but it is about the ethics that Mazda as a company has taken and has a track record of doing in the past.

Would Mazda have kept silent and not change their advertised ratings if there was no complaint? If they cant even give an accurate reading from something as simple as an HP reading, then it makes you wonder about reliabilty, safety, and other engineering aspects of the car.

Do you see where Im getting at? It is not the HP that is the problem, it is the trust in Mazda that has me wondering. For anyone to be happy about this is way beyond reason for me.

Originally posted by CarEnthusiast


You are happy that this scandal has happened again?

This should not have happened in the first place. If you are just happy that there is compensation then you are missing the whole point.

It is not about the small HP change or the fact that the RX8 still drives the same as did yesterday, but it is about the ethics that Mazda as a company has taken and has a track record of doing in the past.

Would Mazda have kept silent and not change their advertised ratings if there was no complaint? If they cant even give an accurate reading from something as simple as an HP reading, then it makes you wonder about reliabilty, safety, and other engineering aspects of the car.

Do you see where Im getting at? It is not the HP that is the problem, it is the trust in Mazda that has me wondering. For anyone to be happy about this is way beyond reason for me.


"doesn't mazda own at least 1 fucking dyno?"

Name one manufacture that's 100% honest? i think performance data were derived from actual tests, even magazine concured with performance data. how they dyno the engine to claim 250ps/250hp/247hp/238hp, i don't know. some idiot forgot to put the alternator drag on? don't know. advertising screwed up? yes and no because the 8 was manufactured in japan, testing is done in japan and all these data were supplied by japan. MNAO does not test the engine to confirm the data send by the manufacturer. emmission isn't even done with a physical engine these day, 'specs' were send to CARB and EPA for verification.

i am disappointed by the missing 20 hp but the car drives the same from day 1 for me. yeah, i am missing 20hp, i'll make it my incentive to beat simiar cars with my driving skills

for me, it's like

is like finding out your girlfriend or boyfriend doesn't put the toothpaste cap on after he/she moved in with you. you 'test drove' him or her (no punt intended) before they move in right? wouldn't you deal with it? one way or another?

a) kick him or her out (let mazda buy it back, go pick up someone(thing) else
b) he/she will buy you your own toothpaste AND toothbrushes AND floss

i know, i over simplify the problem, but pretty damn good analogy if i may say so

:D

Just go and drive the car folks.... You bought it because it's the REVIVAL of an engine that some people have been waiting for a long time. Surely no one here bought the car without a test drive, so you bought it because you LIKED it, end of story. No one buys something for $30K+ without putting some thought into it, unless your IQ is lower than your shoe size. You liked the way it drove, handled, and the nice rotor emblems everywhere. Regarding the hp #'s, okay Mazda screwed up one way or the other. "opps my bad!" Now they're trying to right a wrong, take their package or return the car, no harm done! Hope a few of you take the latter because I wouldn't mind trading in my '02 for an 8 for a few K's less. My 84SE wouldn't mind a younger brother.

Keep on Rotoring! Although I do think this car should be a sub $27K car fully loaded though! :D Don't think that's going to happen any time soon...

Originally posted by canzoomer


They lied in saying it had 247HP
Now they claim 238, and are almost certainly still lying, and you are satisifed with that?

A blatant lie and a revision of stated HP are two different things. First, those HP numbers were never rwhp, just flywheel. Second, the result of emissions is what changed the before and after HP numbers.

I'm satisfied with the car's performance and what Mazda did to make ammends to the current owners. I don't think they lied, so I'm not down on them for that. I am more disatisfied in performance cars having to be detuned for US emissions when I feel there are more blatant pollutants out on the road.

Originally posted by canzoomer
You must really enjoy getting sand kicked in your face.

I thougt about not giving a response to your immature comment.

I feel I not standing on the beach to have sand kick on my face.

Obviously that's where you think you are instead of enjoying the drive of the RX-8. If you think you are getting sand getting kick in your face and don't like it, then get off the beach. Mazda gave you an opt out.

Originally posted by canzoomer
At this point I think a more pragmatic approach is to expect them to either fix it, or to offer us a more realistic settlement of around $2,500 US ( $3,500 Canadian).

Well it is possible for you to have rational comments. It would have been nice for all if the settlement was higher. Personally, I think so, but none-the-less, I satisfied with the amount.

Originally posted by alex
I'm curious, what if Mazda was to offer a third incentive (a second incentive to keep the car actually);

1) Maintenance and $500
2) Payback
3) Have Mazda install a supercharger for 1/2 the cost and "support" it. (or something to 'chkconfig rx8 faster', if you catch my drift [eh heh, get it, drift ... chkconfig .. hehe ... oh well :) ])

I think if this was an available choice, everyone would jump on it and NOT return the car. For those buying a new RX8, well, they'll make it a $10,000 performance option.

I feel happy that Mazda is willing to do this (again) .. how many other countless business and corporation deny, lie and/or cheat to get out of "sticky" situations (ie. tobacoo). Ethically, Mazda did an ethical thing ...

As for me, I'm pondering if I should keep it ONLY because I hate my manager at work and having debt while in this dilemma isn't a comforting feeling, even if it is an RX8. So, I would hope those returning the vehicle would do it for other reasons outside Mazda, ethics and the empirical HP #s which mean nothing in the end; whereas the enjoyment and "happiness" that you get from driving the car, is.

Toodles ... I love my RX8; I hate my manager; I'll have to figure this one out but at least driving my RX8 makes me leave work faster!

alex

I'd opt for #3 if it was available. Unfortunate it is not, therefore #1 is good for me.

Originally posted by Rotary13B1
Just go and drive the car folks.... You bought it because it's the REVIVAL of an engine that some people have been waiting for a long time. Surely no one here bought the car without a test drive, so you bought it because you LIKED it, end of story. No one buys something for $30K+ without putting some thought into it, unless your IQ is lower than your shoe size. You liked the way it drove, handled, and the nice rotor emblems everywhere. Regarding the hp #'s, okay Mazda screwed up one way or the other. "opps my bad!" Now they're trying to right a wrong, take their package or return the car, no harm done! Hope a few of you take the latter because I wouldn't mind trading in my '02 for an 8 for a few K's less. My 84SE wouldn't mind a younger brother.

Keep on Rotoring! Although I do think this car should be a sub $27K car fully loaded though! :D Don't think that's going to happen any time soon...

Thanks Rotary13B1. You saved me the trouble of posting my similiar thoughts.

quote: "From how I understand what was said, If you have a car on order, whether it is built or not, you will be able to take advantage of the program."

This may be premature, but what if my Mazda dealer refuses to honor this policy on the RX-8 I ordered two weeks ago? Does this cost the Mazda dealer any money, thus creating a disincentive, or does the dealer get fully reimbursed by Mazda Japan, and possibly get a small bonus for implementing this settlement?

Actually, from what I understand the option for $500 + maintenance requires that you take delivery by Tuesday (8/26). After that time, you can either take it or leave it (though I suspect if your deposit was "nonrefundable" before it certainly would be now...)

Originally posted by RX-8 Zoomster


A blatant lie and a revision of stated HP are two different things. First, those HP numbers were never rwhp, just flywheel. Second, the result of emissions is what changed the before and after HP numbers.

I'm satisfied with the car's performance and what Mazda did to make ammends to the current owners. I don't think they lied, so I'm not down on them for that. I am more disatisfied in performance cars having to be detuned for US emissions when I feel there are more blatant pollutants out on the road.

I thougt about not giving a response to your immature comment.

I feel I not standing on the beach to have sand kick on my face.

Obviously that's where you think you are instead of enjoying the drive of the RX-8. If you think you are getting sand getting kick in your face and don't like it, then get off the beach. Mazda gave you an opt out.



Well it is possible for you to have rational comments. It would have been nice for all if the settlement was higher. Personally, I think so, but none-the-less, I satisfied with the amount.

What you are doing is called "denial"

Mazda North America have REPEATEDLY tried to hide their mistakes.
RX-3 had engine problems. "Hidden warranty" - denial
MPV had engine problems - tope end and transmissions - denial
Millenia S has supercharger problems - denial
RX-7 overheating - denial
RX-8 short of power - denial

All car companies have problems.
Mazda, however, show a consistent behaviour in denying and trying to hide their problems.

People who are desparate to forgive them remind me of a battered spouse: "He only hit me because he was drunk. He did not realize what he was doing"

I fully realized that Mazda has this tendency before I got the car.
I sat down with my dealer and discussed the history before I bought the car, and received some assurances from their management that this time they would do a better job of dealing with the problems.

Problems are inevitable. It is how they deal with them that is the mark of quality or rubbish.
I like my RX-8 a lot.
However I fully intend to hold Mazda to their promises and responsibilities.

I am amazed at how many of you are willing to just except the fact that you were lied to. I was sceptical that the RX-8 had 247HP right from the start. I decided to wait and see let some other person buy it first.

247 HP in my book is weak. 238 is pathetic. Mazda needs to step up, grow some balls and make some powerful cars. All the other manufacturers are doing it and Mazda is getting left behind. ** Note to Mazda ** Don't bother building a new RX-7 if its going to be anemic. Please let the RX-7 die with dignity. The Type R Bathurst was a perfect way to end the RX-7's life.

Do you realize the RX-8 is the flagship car of the Mazda line? With 238HP???? Please!

Mazda can easily turn the Automotive world on its ear by simply building a 3 rotor motor. It already exists.

My friend just had a ITS engine dropped into his 90GTU it now has 190RWHP besides the engine the car is bone stock. He was running in a stock class in Autocross until the new engine.
He got to drive it and a RX-8 at the same Autocross he said his car felt so much faster.

I cannot understand how any of you can say you are content with your cars performance. A couple of guys over at Nopistons.com took the RX-8 out for a test beating, uhum, drive, and said they felt very lacking in the acceleration dept. One guy refered to a 90 GXL RX-7 as a comparison.

I want an RX-8 and will wiat to see what Mazdaspeed does with it. I hope they can make it interesting.

Does this apply to cars already on order....have an automatic ordered as of Aug. 8.......will I get the $500? thx

Originally posted by jmanolov
Yeah, right, an air intake will pull out 16hp of its a$$.
If air intake would make the car that much more powerful, don't you think Mazda will already have it installed.

All these intake hp claims are so laughable ... ;)



Are you trying to make yourself look like a dumbass?

Sure, I HATE that this happened. I'd much rather see the car be putting down 215-220 at the wheels and there be NO controversey what-so-ever. But this makes the car an excellent deal. So my girlfriend and I are going this morning to pickup her Winning Blue GT with Nav. Then we're going to drive the hell out of it, and we're going to love every second of it.

And you never know, I might trade the M3 in on one of those dealer buy-back cars if the price is right.

Personally, I don't understand what the big deal is about this news release. I mean yeah...it sucks that it no longer is "listed" as 247 hp BUT the change in the "numbers" does not affect the times reported by Road and Track, Motor Trend, etc. The car still is what it is. A number can't change that. If Mazda said the car had 2 horespower I still wouldn't care....it's just a NUMBER. If anything, we should take pride in that the car does more with less. People also forget that this engine was International Engine of The Year. Also ironic is the fact that most of the negative post are from non-8 owners.

Like most of you, I'm really upset about this "lie." Look, the S2k is advertised at 240hp and it seems to me that Mazda wanted the 8 to look like it beat Honda on this point, but got caught.
As for the amends, $500 credit (probably on purchased of over-priced Mazda parts) and free maintenance for 4 yrs., it is just a ploy to avoid costly law suits...they hope.

Here's a real life example:
In 1998, I bought a New Beetle turbo diesel on a lark since I had never owned a diesel. About a year later (after the half shafts were replaced...the regular one couldn't handle the torque), I traded it in on Benz for my wife. Now, on August 11, 2003, I received a notice in the mail from the Superior Court of New Jersey, Atlantic County, that a settlement had been reached involving the "malfunctions of front door window mechanisms" in just about every VW NB, Golf, Jetta, etc. produced from 1998 to 2003. The "settlement" reached with VWoA is to replace the mechanism and provide a 7 year extended warranty for that mechanism; and reimburse any owner who paid to have the mechanism replaced, including any "out-ofpocket" expenses (towing, lodging, etc.) if the window wouldn't go up in a snowstorm, etc. The three named plantiffs will each get $1500 and the attorneys will get $520,000. Add to that what VWoA paid their own attorneys to litigate this case.

So, what does this mean? To me, it means the offer to make this "right" is one that saves Mazda a shit load of money! Engines are much more costly to deal with the "window mechanisms." Even BMW, when faced with engine failures in the M3, extended the engine warranty to 100,000 on the engines replaced (at no charge) and all other M3 engines, even those that did not fail.

I'll still get my 8 next week, but there needs to be something more in the way of reparations that don't require me to haggle with the dealer over the price.:mad:

I just saw a 287 horsepower 350Z make 202 wheel horsepower on a dyno dynamics dyno.........hmmmm perhaps that car is also a little underpowered? I would exzpect it to make at least 215-220 if it was making 287 horsepower. Heck a neon SRT4 made 205 wheel horse last week on the same dyno? But back to the RX-8 and it's 210 horsepower. A japanese magazine recently performed a test between a 210 hp 5 spedd and a "250" horsepower 6 speed. The 0-60 times were nearly identical at 7.1 seconds and the 6 speed made it throught the 1/4 mile in 2 tenths less than the 210 version at 1 mph faster? Sounds like gearing to me and not 40 horsepower. This car should be $22,000 as it has 210 horsepower and is not what the consumer is expecting when they cross shop with the G35 coupe, 350Z, BMW 330I and Honda S2000.

Thor.

After years and years of being a Mazda evangelist (and owning one or two of just about every model they have made since 1979), not being able to muster any enthusiasm for the company makes me sad. I'm just not a fan anymore. But even I don't think Mazda has tried to cover up anything or intentionally lied about anything.

But, there is no doubt that the company is rife with problems. Look at the 2001-2003 Miata clutch problems. Some folks are on their third clutch and they are still suffering "chatter". And, as any long term Miata enthusiast knows, the clutch issue was not the first Miata problem to come down the road.

Unfortunately, it looks like Mazda's most recent track record continues with the 8.

Mark

Ya' know....looking at the other Subie, Acura, Honda threads regarding the RX8 "issue"... one thing kept jumping out at me. Yea, there were some in there that were "whooping it up" because the stated HP figures were down by 9. More interestingly, there were posts that were from people that still said "it's still a sweet car and I'd love to have one".

Is this controversy intentional on Mazda's part? Doubtful! Did they underestimate the toll emmission controls would sap?Probably.

Why would they want to cost themselves millions of dollars (which is what this free maintenance and $500 for current owners is going to cost them)? That 9 HP isn't going to affect my enjoyment of the car one bit.

We bought the car knowing its performance figures and those haven't changed. We test drove the car and were pleased with the way they performed before we plunked down our money.

Mazda wants go give me money and free maintenance? Fine by me. The car doesn't perform any differently than when I test drove it and I was happy then. GIve me free stuff and money.....makes me even happier, now.

This is kind of like buying a house and thinking it has a 100 gal water heater but finding out it really has a 90 gal water heater. I'm still going to get a good long hot shower out of it and won't affect how much I enjoy my home.

Originally posted by fips
...

Who the hell are you?

I think it's time to do some house cleaning ... ban all the Trolls.

Yea...there looks to be a lot of new "trolls" who have registered here lately who are a wee bit jealous of our rides.

But, there is no doubt that the company is rife with problems. Look at the 2001-2003 Miata clutch problems. Some folks are on their third clutch and they are still suffering "chatter". And, as any long term Miata enthusiast knows, the clutch issue was not the first Miata problem to come down the road.

OMG, the Miata has that problem too? I have a huge shudder with my Mazda6 that Mazda has not fixed yet. It started at 4,000 miles, and does it at any RPM in 1st gear and sometimes in 2nd. Mazda also promised not to put rebates on the car or to sell to rental fleets in order to keep resale value high, and I got screwed there too. Mazda didn't just put rebates on the car, but huge ones. Since I planned to upgrade to an RX-8, trying to predict resale value was a important to me.

Now this.

Speaking of resale, there will undoubtedly be some bad press over this. What do you think that will do to resale? This car is now 'officially' in a different class - I don't think you'd compare it with the S200s and 350Zs anymore. To me that says I just paid too much for this car (even though I love it).

Stretch,

The clutch shudder on 2001-2003 Miatas is a HUGE issue. Over in Miata.net Forum, I just did a search for "clutch shudder" in the NB (1998 and later) forum and I got 300 topic hits!

Some folks have had their clutch replaced 3 times. I've only had mine replaced once but the nasty shudder is back and there is a new service bulletin on it so I'll be going back.

Interesting that the Mazda 6 is similarly affected. Let's hope the RX-8 remains immune.

Mark

I don't think it will effect resale . It didn't hurt the resale for the miatia.....

Hey everybody I just got a call from my sales guy saying that Mazda's printed HP numbers were wrong that the car is not 247hp but actually 238hp
To make up for this Mazda is giving peeps that have already bought an RX-8 thinking it was the 247 HP a $500 refund on a debit card and free Maintenance for 4 yrs. Don't know what the detials are until I get the stuff in the mail but that's what I was told.

Old news, Sorry.

Originally posted by allstate
Personally, I don't understand what the big deal is about this news release. I mean yeah...it sucks that it no longer is "listed" as 247 hp BUT the change in the "numbers" does not affect the times reported by Road and Track, Motor Trend, etc. The car still is what it is. A number can't change that. If Mazda said the car had 2 horespower I still wouldn't care....it's just a NUMBER. If anything, we should take pride in that the car does more with less. People also forget that this engine was International Engine of The Year. Also ironic is the fact that most of the negative post are from non-8 owners.



First of all, the C&D numbers came from a preproduction RX-8 with 8000rpm of clutch drop. We do not know the actual production RX-8 is faster than the preproduction one due to recent events. How do we really know if the actual production mode is not weaker than the mules magazines tested months ago? Everything Mazda has 'claimed' about the car is now questionable in my mind. This is what I have been stressing in the past, the biggest downside of the RX-8 is that it is being sold and serviced by Mazda USA, a company with poor records when it comes to consumer service. Also, the International Engine of the Year was a engine that produces 250hp freely, reliable and gets 25miles to the gallon. Where is that engine now?

Originally posted by TerenceT
for me, it's like

is like finding out your girlfriend or boyfriend doesn't put the toothpaste cap on after he/she moved in with you. you 'test drove' him or her (no punt intended) before they move in right? wouldn't you deal with it? one way or another?

a) kick him or her out (let mazda buy it back, go pick up someone(thing) else
b) he/she will buy you your own toothpaste AND toothbrushes AND floss

i know, i over simplify the problem, but pretty damn good analogy if i may say so

:D


That is a pretty sad analogy. ;) If you really feel that way about your car though, more power to you. I think the power issue shouldn't be downplayed to the point where you guys want to say "missing power is not important at all compare to the benefit we'll receive from Mazda."

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac

Also, the International Engine of the Year was a engine that produces 250hp freely, reliable and gets 25miles to the gallon. Where is that engine now?

I'm sure a big part of that had to deal with emission laws. :mad:

I've personally done a 0-60 run with a 200 lb passenger using a stop watch. I did it in 6.5 (allowing for a little "fudge factor" using a stop watch) secs starting at 3K RPM (no hi rev clutch dump). Take out the passenger and I'm pretty close to 6 sec 0-60, without abusing the car. So, the car is right in line with what I had read performance wise.

Others (not C&D either) have hooked up a GTech here in the forum and have gotten 6 sec 0-60 with a hi rev clutch dump and a 14 sec 1/4. Again, right where I expected the car would perform.

Since it sounds like emmissions controls in the U.S. are the culprit, I'll give Mazda the benefit of the doubt and consider it an honest mistake.

I've driven the 350Z/G35 when test driving. I chose the RX8 after test driving and nothing about my RX8 has changed. I didn't buy it based on the numbers on paper. I bought it because I liked it better than all the rest.

Sure I used published numbers when researching. That's not what got me into the Mazda dealership in the first place, though. The prospect of driving a great looking sports car with a rotary engine did get me into the dealership, though. If there was a 40 HP difference, then I would have noticed it on the test drive and I may have changed my mind. In short, that 9 HP doesn't mean a "hill of beans" to me.

I don't drive what's on paper, however. I drive my car.

Now I'm going to get money and free maintenance on top of owning a car that I thought was better than its competition to begin with. That's even better.

Truth be told, if there were as much fanaticism about other cars as there is about the RX8 and the same scrutiny was applied, I'd bet we'd find all sorts of skeletons in their closets regarding what's advertised vs what's actual.

We all know that horsepower figures are more marketing hype than real world measures of performance anyway.

Originally posted by Jims5543

Do you realize the RX-8 is the flagship car of the Mazda line? With 238HP???? Please!

Mazda can easily turn the Automotive world on its ear by simply building a 3 rotor motor. It already exists.

My friend just had a ITS engine dropped into his 90GTU it now has 190RWHP besides the engine the car is bone stock. He was running in a stock class in Autocross until the new engine.
He got to drive it and a RX-8 at the same Autocross he said his car felt so much faster.

I cannot understand how any of you can say you are content with your cars performance. A couple of guys over at Nopistons.com took the RX-8 out for a test beating, uhum, drive, and said they felt very lacking in the acceleration dept. One guy refered to a 90 GXL RX-7 as a comparison.

I want an RX-8 and will wiat to see what Mazdaspeed does with it. I hope they can make it interesting. I'm so glad you know so much more than Mazda about how easy it is to "just build a 3 rotor engine."

I also like how you are apparently uniquely equipped to say whether anyone is happy with their vehicle's performance.

"One guy referred to a '90 GXL RX-7 as a comparison" - hmmm, a very popular edition of the RX-7, I'm sure Mazda would be flattered.

The RX-8 and Renesis were never designed to be an ultimate sports car with neck-snapping acceleration - Mazda's own engineers say that. It was never designed to be a flagship - note the fact that it stickers for about $10K less than the last RX-7 did, and that's without accounting for 1995 vs. 2003 dollars.

If you don't like it, or Mazda, BUY SOMETHING ELSE.

Well said, graphicguy.

I'm a little tired of people coming here and insisting that the car doesn't perform as advertised. If you and others are able to get the car from 0-60 in 6 seconds, then the car is performing the way it should.

That being the case, the hp doesn't mean much, except from a legal standpoint. Mazda needs to make amends to current owners because they fell short of what they promised in terms of horsepower. They are trying to do that. Would I like more from them? Of course. However, free maintenance in itself will save me a good amount of money. The $500 (if it's available to spend as we please) is pretty nice as well.

I suppose some people are just hooked on that number. I'm not. I don't want to be duped and made a fool, to be sure. There's no question I'm disappointed that Mazda did this again. But they are stepping up and trying to correct it. That's a good thing.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
First of all, the C&D numbers came from a preproduction RX-8 with 8000rpm of clutch drop. We do not know the actual production RX-8 is faster than the preproduction one due to recent events. How do we really know if the actual production mode is not weaker than the mules magazines tested months ago?Come on, Skyline, don't join the trolls. You know better than this, someone has posted here in the past week showing they got 6.0 0-60 times with a very high rev clutch drop (around 8000 RPM). The magazines themselves all said they had to dump the clutch at 7500 RPM+ to get the best times.

Not everyone has access to a dyno; many enthusiasts do have access to a GTech and those results have been posted here in other threads... unless you think they were Mazda plants or something.

I believe that this car showed up at America's door with 247HP. It did not meet our EPA standards, waited at all the ports until parts and equipment could be sent to all the ports to reburn ECU proms that would meets the EPA standards (remember the minimum 3 week wait at all ports for no reason). There will be aftermarket chips that will recover all that was lost, plus. Just my opinion. But it kind of explains the whole port hush, hush, thing.
Mazda would not nowingly inport another car after past problems and repercusions. They have spent the last 2 month (quick in corporate time) coming up with an acceptable remedy for the problem.

They are probably leaking good solid burn info to aftermarket companies as we speak, to further remedy the situation.

I'm quite happy with whatever is coming out of it, and the money and service is a bonus.

The brand new S2000 I was following the other day, thought he had a 247 HP monkey on his back.

Originally posted by TerenceT
can someone define "free scheduled maintaince" pleaseSure.

Go to the scheduled maintenance portion of your owner's manual.

Note the services specified and when they are due.

Said services will be free at the intervals specified.

Not that difficult to understand.

That means things like oil and filter changes, belts, spark plugs, air filters, etc. will be free.

Unlike the Audi Advantage, things like wiper blades and wiper fluid will not as they're not "scheduled maintenance" items.

Originally posted by eccles
Bollocks! How many times do folks have to point out that 250ps - the original spec - is 247hp?

Sheesh! Can we please let all the wild-ass speculation and inaccuracies go and concentrate on the known facts?

Why the hell do I have a US brochure, that I got from Jeff Haas Mazda in Houston, TX only two weeks ago, that clearly states in the specs section;

Horsepower, SAE Net, 250@8500 rpm

This is not some sort of preproduction brochure either. It is the real thing.

Originally posted by babylou
Why the hell do I have a US brochure, that I got from Jeff Haas Mazda in Houston, TX only two weeks ago, that clearly states in the specs section;

Horsepower, SAE Net, 250@8500 rpm

This is not some sort of preproduction brochure either. It is the real thing.This is true. The folks who say it was "always" 247 HP haven't been around since the early days; it was 250 BHP in all preproduction materials, on the Mazda web site, in all the car magazine reviews, etc. It was only when production commenced that it became 250 PS, or 247 BHP. Now with the recent admission it's 239 BHP.

That's if we're trying to get the sequence of events right. If we're talking about actual performance, of course, big flipping deal. You test drive it and make your decision there unless you're only buying it for bragging rights. If one were looking to drop $30K to be able to say one had more HP than a friend with an S2000, I guess the RX-8's off that person's shopping list. A shame, as they'll never know what they missed...

So any word on the official problem? I don't want to make an uninformed decision - I would think that Mazda owes that to me. I want to know if it was emissions and what fix was applied if it ever made our shores with 247.

I love the car, but now this is an economic decision. Do I take the ~$!500 or do I try to find another one, deal on it, recooperate some of the initial depreciation (1 month and 2500 miles of ownership) and maybe come out ahead. Then I have had the oil light problem once or twice, a few squeaks, and now I get an e-brake light when I go around a corner hard. Let me tell you, every little problem I find is one more chink in the armor.

I love the car, but don't know what to do. I don't need a service nightmare or something that's going to depreciate much faster if Mazda comes back next year with a honest 247hp renesis. That would shoot my car's value quite nicely. I feel like I need more information from Mazda - buyback specifics, problem description, etc.

Frustrating to read about this on a Sat morning. I think I need to go drive....

Originally posted by graphicguy
I've personally done a 0-60 run with a 200 lb passenger using a stop watch. I did it in 6.5 (allowing for a little "fudge factor" using a stop watch) secs starting at 3K RPM (no hi rev clutch dump). Take out the passenger and I'm pretty close to 6 sec 0-60, without abusing the car. So, the car is right in line with what I had read performance wise.

Others (not C&D either) have hooked up a GTech here in the forum and have gotten 6 sec 0-60 with a hi rev clutch dump and a 14 sec 1/4. Again, right where I expected the car would perform.


Dead on! The car performs as advertised and publicized. The only thing wrong are the three numbers on the window sticker.

Last night, before I was aware of Mazda's announcement, I had my RX-8 out on a winding back road. It was awesome! While people were burning up the Internet with rhetoric, my RX-8 was burning up the highway.

That's the nice thing about the RX-8, it can do everything but read.

Ha... you're going to rely on your stopwatch to tell u the time u ran?

Rumors, speculation, propaganda..

Since it seems Mazda is aware of the fact, all I care about right now is an explanation for the loss. Right now we're all clueless as to WHY, and just ranting like madmen.

MAZDA: dont just send us a letter saying "we're sorry, here choose from these options.." Please EXPLAIN the problem. If there EVEN IS a problem? We're all pretty much educated rotary enthusiast folk and can understand a good lot of what you might need to say.

Thanks! Does Mazda have "egg on their face"? Hell, yes!

But let's put it into perspective. From what I can gather, these cars showed up on the dock well within advertised HP numbers. Mazda found out that the car wouldn't meet CA emmissions regs (I wonder if it would have passed elsewhere?) which are pretty severe to begin with. They have to reflash the ECU to pass emmisssions (which explains the "rework" sticker under the hood) at the dock and they believe they are OK because they're still within the 5% "fudge factor". I don't believe there is some large conspiracy going on within Mazda trying to defraud the public. I'd make a bet that whatever person or group within Mazda that's responsible for emmissions testing is now pumping gas somewhere, too.

Some tuner gets hold of one. Pulls the engine, builds a stand, mounts it, dynos it and all sorts of crazy internet rumors/theorists/chatter is the result. Now, Mazda has a PR problem on their hands since internet chatter moves quickly. When, in fact, they thought they had taken care of the problem and were within the normally acceptable HP claim range. They do a quick recovery (the first I heard of this was less than a week ago) by offering money and free service or, as someone else so aptly put it, "satisfaction guaranteed or your money back". Believe me, I've had other cars with lots worse issues and had to fight tooth and nail just to get them to admit the problems, let alone offer to buy it back.

Would I like the car for free? Sure! If they gave me more money would I take it? Hell, yes! Is their offer acceptable to me? Most certainly.

Again, the car I test drove and bought performs the same way today as it did yesterday. Nothing about it has changed. The only thing that's changed is some numbers on a sheet of paper. I don't feel as if I was intentionally misled by Mazda.

If you think about it, you'd either have to spend a lot more money on a higher end sports car to get SIGNIFICANTLY better performance, or you'd have to give up the quality, handling, looks, comfort of the RX8 and get an EVO or WRX. Even new Corvettes or Porsches in my 'burg don't get the stares and the "thumbs-up" that my car has received.

It just "gauls" you that we love these cars, doesn't it. That fact alone makes me want to keep my car.

Just look around. The "Search" button is real handy for that type of thing.

Fine, a GTECH isn't a stopwatch, but still - Speed Racer posted the graphs below in a discussion roughly here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7976&perpage=40&pagenumber=8)...

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=101969

I'd bet my stopwatch method is within a tenth or two of what a track run would show. And, no, I won't take my $30K car to the track. I've got other, cheaper vehicles I'd rather abuse by doing that.

I must agree with fips.. Gtech is a nice toy but by no means it is accurate enough for 1/4 mile and whp readings. To accurately measure the above values go to a dyno and a 1/4 mile strip. Please post your results.

Graphicguy, so are you saying that you bought a sports car and will never take it to redline? :confused: Sure going racing every weekend might be hard on the car but once or twice in its lifetime will not do anything to it. I redline my car at least twice a day and I also attend lapping days and auto-x. So far at 60K miles no mechanical problems what so ever. Knock, knock :) If anything, a $30K car with a "sports" mission should be built even better to deal with such driving than my Prelude.

Since they updated the horsepower ratings, MazdaUSA (http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/handleHomeFlash.action?vehicleCode=RX8&modelYear=2004) is calling the engine "RENISIS" rather than "RENESIS."

I know it's just a typo; but, jeez, get it together Mazda!

EDIT: RX8-Nut observed this last night on another thread.

fips ... you're gone, thanks for playing

Originally posted by BillK
I'm so glad you know so much more than Mazda about how easy it is to "just build a 3 rotor engine."

I also like how you are apparently uniquely equipped to say whether anyone is happy with their vehicle's performance.

"One guy referred to a '90 GXL RX-7 as a comparison" - hmmm, a very popular edition of the RX-7, I'm sure Mazda would be flattered.

The RX-8 and Renesis were never designed to be an ultimate sports car with neck-snapping acceleration - Mazda's own engineers say that. It was never designed to be a flagship - note the fact that it stickers for about $10K less than the last RX-7 did, and that's without accounting for 1995 vs. 2003 dollars.

If you don't like it, or Mazda, BUY SOMETHING ELSE.

First of all - Mazda has done nothing BUT compare the RX-8 to the 3rd gen. RX-7 I have seen video's of the 2 of them racing on a road course together. I would imagine the driver of the RX-7 was told not to pull away from the RX-8. Real #'s do not lie. The 3rd gen RX-7's in stock form put close to 40 more HP to the wheels. So if Mazda never intended the RX-8 to be an ultimate sports car their PR people should stop comparing it to the RX-7 and calling it a sports car in their print ads. Pretty suspicious that their "Provisional Target" HP is very very close to the 255 of the third Gen RX-7 dont you think?

Mazda has/had a 3 rotor car on the road in Japan it is a Cosmo its engine is very popular here in the states. Pettit Racing builds a 500+HP 3rd gen RX-7 with this 20B engine in it. Mazda doesn't even have to develop this engine it exists already.


If I was any of you that own a RX-8 I would DEMAND Mazda to FIX the car and get its performance back to where they said it was. Much in the same manner as Ford did with the Cobras.

This "Here's $500 and a service contract now move along" attitude they are showing is utter BS.

Oh and I did buy something else I am picking up my Mini Cooper S Works addition wed. next week.

BTW - I am not a troll. I am an owner of a heavily tuned 87 Turbo RX-7 and race it. I even have my little Mazdaspeed sposorship.

I hesitated on the RX-8 to see how they would be in the hands of the everage consumer. I heard there was a Mazdaspeed additon in the works and was going to wait for that to arrive. I bought the Mini cash and planed on driving it for a couple of years until the Mazdaspeed addition came out.

My RX-7 at one point in time had 225RWHP so I know exactly what a 250 HP feels like. I raced my RX-7 in this trim for 6 months.
If someone is comparing the acceleration to a 90GXL you are correct it is not very flattering. It makes me wonder if anyone here knows what a 2900lb. 250HP car feels like in terms of acceleration.

I am suprised that everyone is so happy with their cars here. My point is simply do not let Mazda pay you off to shut up. Demand they find the HP they claimed you were getting. Oh, and its a lot more than 9 HP. Guys are dynoing at 180RWHP that translates to 210-216 crank HP. I am at a loss why you are so willing to ignore this little fact. I would not be content until my car pulled 215 at the wheels. Then it would be a hoot of a car.

This 0-60 time is crazy too. So what so you are pulling 6.5 seconds. Dodge claims its SRT-4 Neon is pulling a 5.9 second 0-60. Try to run one from a light and see what happens. They are turning 14 flat 1/4 miles at the track.

Question I just thought of - say I take this $500 and put it towards an intake/exhaust/chip upgrade. Are the bastards at my dealer going to say I just violated my warranty and not give me the free maintanance?



If I change the intake i'm no longer going to get the free air filter change. Since my dealer was already giving me free oil changes, what am I going to get out of this free maintanance except for 4 spark plugs and a change of diff fluid?



How is this going to cost Mazda millions - it only effects what about 8,000 cars (if lucky)... so thats what about $8,000 worth of service/refund. Given that if they buy back the car it gets resold as being used, they probably will not even loose much money on that either. It seems they are getting off very easy. Hell, there are no rebates, no deals, no nothing on these cars - they are making a whole frikkin lot more then $500 on each car. Hell, GM looses more money per car giving out $2000 factory rebates! The only way this is going to cost them any significant amount of money is if suddenly nobody buys the RX8 anymore - and I really don't see them not being able to see another 10-20k in the next year to reach their target.



I'd like them to explain the problem, come up with a fix for the problem and then fix the problem, and promise to us they won't go around and lower the MSRP by a couple grand and f*&k us on resale value, and then kiss our asses by including something else rather then throw a couple bucks that means nothing to them at us and thats it.


...given all that, I'll probably remain pissed at my favorite company from blatantly hiding this for as long as possible for awhile and take the $500 :o

***moderator edit***

Ok, since so many of you came to the conclusion that the car will make the advertised power and that it was changed at the ports for emissions reasons, can someone tell me how these CA emissions tests are conducted. Do they test at a cars redline or something? That seems to be the problem here, everything is nice and dandy till around 6k rpm and then it poops out. Someone educated in CA emissions educate me on this cause I don't buy this theory at all.
And no, I am not a Honda driving troll. I am a rotorhead who is slightly pissed off at Mazda.

All i know is i traded in my car when i bought my 8. If i decided to do the buy back.. Do i get my car back? Do I just get all my money back (tax,title,license,payoff on my car, etc)...

I love my car, but my finances might be getting tight pretty soon with a new baby coming (just found out)... so i dunno if ill use this to get a cheaper car.. or what..

Originally posted by pr0ber


How is this going to cost Mazda millions - it only effects what about 8,000 cars (if lucky)... so thats what about $8,000 worth of service/refund. Given that if they buy back the car it gets resold as being used, they probably will not even loose much money on that either. It seems they are getting off very easy. Hell, there are no rebates, no deals, no nothing on these cars - they are making a whole frikkin lot more then $500 on each car. Hell, GM looses more money per car giving out $2000 factory rebates! The only way this is going to cost them any significant amount of money is if suddenly nobody buys the RX8 anymore - and I really don't see them not being able to see another 10-20k in the next year to reach their target.



I'd like them to explain the problem, come up with a fix for the problem and then fix the problem, and promise to us they won't go around and lower the MSRP by a couple grand and f*&k us on resale value, and then kiss our asses by including something else rather then throw a couple bucks that means nothing to them at us and thats it.


...given all that, I'll probably remain pissed at my favorite company from blatantly hiding this for as long as possible for awhile and take the $500 :o

You are absolutely correct about how much this will cost Mazda. First, they are making a healthy profit on each car as is and how many have they actually sold or had pre-ordered before 8/26/03 in the US? Let's guess and say it was 2,000 cars (which may be high by 500+). The $500 credit amounts to $1M IF every owner makes use of it. The service contract may actually cost another $1M assuming every current owner keeps the car for the term of the warranty. But we know that won't happen. Many will be traded, some will be wrecked, some will get the warranty voided by after-market changes, etc. The continued free service will most likely not apply to the second owner. So, in a "nutshell", Mazda is getting off cheap with this deal. $2M is a drop in the bucket for them and Ford. Of course they will have to live with the fallout in terms of sales. In my book, they would be far better off coming up with a fix for the problem. Then everybody would truly be happy with their purchase. I'll get mine next week and will miss the hp probably only in my mind. But that counts for something, no matter how "small minded" I may be.

So has anyone figured out what emmision piece was added to removed the HP?

To me it seems the power is still in the engine, it's the same one they sell in Japan that makes 248hp.. you just have to find out what you need to undo to get the HP back.

I know I got about 18 hp from undoing the cats on my 7 ;)

Originally posted by Quick_lude
I must agree with fips.. Gtech is a nice toy but by no means it is accurate enough for 1/4 mile and whp readings. To accurately measure the above values go to a dyno and a 1/4 mile strip. Please post your results.

Graphicguy, so are you saying that you bought a sports car and will never take it to redline? :confused: Sure going racing every weekend might be hard on the car but once or twice in its lifetime will not do anything to it. I redline my car at least twice a day and I also attend lapping days and auto-x. So far at 60K miles no mechanical problems what so ever. Knock, knock :) If anything, a $30K car with a "sports" mission should be built even better to deal with such driving than my Prelude.

I never said I wouldn't redline it. I do that regularly (since break in is through).

I won't take it to the track, however. I doubt that I'll do a 7K clutch dump either. It runs fast without the clutch dump.

I used to go to the track with a beat up, but well-modded Mustang GT. Nice hobby, but I have backed away from it. Too many "wannabes" and punks with more money than sense began showing up. Used to autox with a a bunch of cars...including a first gen MR2, a '60s version MINI and an 80s vintage Corolla GTS.

I'm no stranger to tuning, nor the track and I've spent enough of my free time on both and more than a fair amount of money, too.

Thanks for giving "flips" the boot. He was just like any number of the assholes I tried to avoid when at the track.

Upon going to my dealership to find out some information, I picked up a copy of this lil ummm magazine (its reallll thin) talking about "International Engine of the Year awards 2003... Presented by engine technology international magazine" I didn't want to search through all the posts, but for those questioning the engines that were tested for those awards, it shows on the last page what power outputs were used for the judges. I'll just qoute it since I don't have a scanner:

"Naturally aspirated and available with two power outputs (192bhp or 240bhp), the rotary impressed the judges with its silky smooth power delivery, incredible refinement and willingness to rev so freely."

That's not too far off at all from what Mazda has adjusted their hp claims to be. Then again, I have no clue where I'm going with this except to answer those questions about the power of the engine when it was judged for the awards.

Originally posted by Mark Booth
Stretch,

The clutch shudder on 2001-2003 Miatas is a HUGE issue. Over in Miata.net Forum, I just did a search for "clutch shudder" in the NB (1998 and later) forum and I got 300 topic hits!

Some folks have had their clutch replaced 3 times. I've only had mine replaced once but the nasty shudder is back and there is a new service bulletin on it so I'll be going back.

Interesting that the Mazda 6 is similarly affected. Let's hope the RX-8 remains immune.

Mark

Wow, I had no idea. I never followed much on Miatas since I'm much too tall to fit in them. I've heard of tall owners, but not me. In fact, I see more over the top of the windshield with the top down than under it, and despite that my height comes from long legs. :mad: I'd probably own one otherwise- I love lightweight cars, and don't mind a "cozy" cockpit.

Anyway, I heard this transmission issue was a large problem with Proteges as well, though I haven't heard much on that issue either. I almost bought a Protege and a friend has a 2002 5-spd, and it's not effected. Still, some drivers report the issue.

This begs the question- do all Mazda manual transmissions have this issue?

I used to hold Mazda in the highest regard as my favorite auto manufacturer. They always seemed to innovate by thinking outside the box, and weren't afraid to build something different. While that still stands true, now that I'm an owner and hanging with the Mazda crowd much more closely, I'm beginning to lose such high favor. This horsepower issue is rediculous. I don't care about this missing power- I care about the company that somehow forgot to test the production cars. It's a trust issue. If major issues like that slip, it's no wonder the manual tranny's haven't been fixed despite being used in many different designs in many different cars.

When I was one of the first Mazda6 owners, it was because I trusted Mazda to build a reliable car despite no reliability data. Yet, I have a clutch shudder. I expected resale value to be high when Mazda promised not to put rebates on their midsize cars, and they proceeded to put huge rebates on the car soon after. I also expected a sporty sedan, and at least that I got. Really, that's the only thing that can be told from a test drive, and the rest was a guess. Kudos to the design team, but shame on Mazda North America in their continued poor execution of marketing great Japense vehicles. I don't trust Mazda anymore.

In regards to the horsepower issue- what about people who trusted Mazda so much, they pre-ordered with a non-refundable deposit for their 250hp sports car? Wouldn't you feel betrayed if you kept looking forward to added power after a break-in, and it never came?

I'm not saying the car is bad the way it is, I'm saying it's a matter of trust.

Originally posted by canzoomer


What you are doing is called "denial"



Call it what you want. I feel different. You obviously have a lot of pent up anger for Mazda.

Bottom line, I was perfectly happy with my car before & feel the same now.

Obviously you feel differently, and that's your opinion. Since you already own the car, if you don't like it, then take the buyback and quit complaining. Mazda was nice enough to at least give you that option.

I'm done debating you on this subject.

With this post this topic now has one more response than the best motoring thread:D