I thought I'll start another thread to share CZ Maps. That way they won't be lost in a huge thread. Try to keep this thread to only posting your maps. Discuss in other threads.

I'll start with my "Beta Map V1"

I'm happy with this map because it seems to work really well. My CanScan readings indicate that the AFR is somewhat flat around 13.5. I am somewhat too lean around the 7500+ RPM range. A "Beta Map V2" is in the works to remedy this problem.

Next goal is to do a "Gamma Map" which takes the AFR to 13.9. This should be easier now I have a true baseline to start.

Note that I modified the Throttle Column (the one in Blue) in the AFR Map. It goes 90, 88, 84, 80 75,70..... I did this because when I logged with eManage my throttle never went beyond 88% even though my CanScan says it's 100%. Someone pointed this out to the board so I incorporated that info. I also changed the RPM range since I noticed that in my car, everything below 5600 RPM was fine.

Xyntax also saw that zeroing out the low voltage setting (2.90 or 3.00) in the ignition map helps eliminate advance from creeping into the low RPM ranges. My only change was that I didn't zero out the whole row, only the first cell. Thanks Xyntax for that observation.

I started fresh with the AFR map, but use the base CZ ignition map to start. The only change I incorporated into the CZ ignition map was to eliminate the zeros in the 6000 RPM range. I put in 5's and 4's. Feels pretty good.

EDIT: Forgot to add: "Results may vary from car to car. Previous experience indicate that there is no such thing as the one perfect map. Tuning the AFR and Ignition Maps to your car's behavior will yield best results." Just in case anyone is confused :)

what the helll...

My ignition map looks exactly like yours except the column on the left (maf ?) goes from 3.0-0 instead of 4.05-> 3.0


Did you change that yourself or is mine really screwed up? I haven't actually hooked my unit up to run it yet and this is really making wonder about things....

what the helll...

My ignition map looks exactly like yours except the column on the left (maf ?) goes from 3.0-0 instead of 4.05-> 3.0


Did you change that yourself or is mine really screwed up? I haven't actually hooked my unit up to run it yet and this is really making wonder about things....

Crap I breaking my intend to keep this strictly maps.....oh well :cool:

Change it to 3.0 to 4.05, and make sure you are using airflow voltages. If you ever log with eManage you will see that most of the time you want igniton advance to occur over 3.0 V. Any lower then you will do strange things to the ignition like advancing ignition at low RPM and low airflow. Anyone can give a more concrete answer?

Jason - do you have the base Map? Mine got scrambled (That's why I went with a new AFR Map.) Also I thought the Stage II was targeting 13.9 AFR that's why I picked 13.9..

it interpolates all gaps

Jason,

From my logs I didn't find any problems with the my ratio below 5500 - 5600 RPM. I really didn't see the need to do anything at point below that range. The only reason I had values in the 5000 and 5200 rpm column was to smooth out the interpolation until it hit 5800 RPM where I really wanted it change the AFR. Personally I think this approach helped.

That spike in the AFR (I'm assuming when you say rich you meant lean - high AFR = lean mix) is interesting. BTW I always changes the column I want to affect and the two columns around it. I want to ensure that the interpolation is smooth.

Hope I make sense :p

Looks like you're close to the target in the 7000+ RPM range. The 6000 to 7000 always gave me problems. I wonder if we're fighting the SDAIS?

How does it feel?

BTW you should log using the eManage to see what eManage see your WOT as. In my case eManage read WOT as 88%, not 100%. This made a huge difference in the tuning. If you notice in the blue column in my AFR Map my throttle settings maxes out at 90% and go from there 88, 84, 80,75, 70, etc.

In your case, for instance, if you use 0 at 90% and 15 at 100%, at 95% it will interpolate to 7.5% change.

Sorry I was editing my previous post, please read my comments.

Your e-manage should read 0-100% in the throttle on the A/F Map. You need to reset your throttle position setting if it doesn't...........Make sure that you confirm it to close or it won't save it. Most of the A/F on my car is good at partial throttle( 14.6ish)...I have tuned it from 50% a bit, and much more at WOT and from 5-9K. I have much more advance dialed in up to 12degrees. Car seems OK with it as long as I use good fuel.

Your e-manage should read 0-100% in the throttle on the A/F Map. You need to reset your throttle position setting if it doesn't.

I followed the instructions on the screen and turned off the car (shut off the main unit) but my throttle readings still maxed out at 88%. :confused:

The e-manage should read 100% when calibrated. You must close the parameters window by hiting " confirm" to save the setting before you close the program

CZ will read from 12-78 for values .......convert to 100% with (x-12)*1.5

Are those ignition settings right? 0.0V-3.0V? In areas where I want advance I have not seen voltages below 3.0V. :confused:

If it came like that from CZ, is this why some people are getting horrible results with the CZ? hmmmm................Folks make sure your scale is something like 3.0V - 4.05V

The advance ABOVE 3.0V is the same as the 3.0V line. This allows more fine tuning of the lower flow areas where the advance needs to be tweaked more to keep it from pinging. Above 3.0V my maps are pretty static......therefore 0-3V adjustments

I don't get what's the use of the 0 to 1.0 V adjustments? What good will that do? At idle I'm already at 1.0+ V, so when will I ever hit something that low when I am driving? :confused: :confused:

You won't :D You can change the values if you want. I don't have a 0V line on mine. I don't adjust mine until 1.3V so my 1.0V line is all zeros....

Hmm... Definitely something to try out. 2-3.5 range.

Personally if your not running full RPM I'd do that. It's super easy to do and makes tuning the map a little easier me thinks :D

But then again my maps are still about 90% un-modified still so what do I know :D :D :D

unsolder the brown wire and move it from the 1/2 RPM position and solder to the full RPM position .......make sure the diodes are as pictured and the caps are removed.....end of story!

Yeah, what dan said. The old board is a little harder since you have to replace 2 of the resistors, and the RPM cable isnt defined, but that pic says it all really :D

If you dont do the electronics thing, if yer ever in Miami/Ft Lauderdale let me know and I can do it in 5 minutes.

I do the electronics things, but the picture doesn't show what I need to connect, it only shows the location of the half rpm and full rpm points... could someone point out what needs to be connected there?

Thanks,

Slavearm

It's nice to have full RPM instead of half, but I wouldn't recommend it to those that don't have problems looking at half RPMs. It wouldn't improve anything at all. Anyone not so experienced in messing with board tweaking shouldn't risk it. You'd end up frying your unit (WCS).

1. open the unit
2. remove the two screws holding the ignition board to the chassis
3. locate the brown wire soldered to the half rpm output point
4. heat the solder from the BOTTOM of the board while gently pulling on the brown wire, it will come free.
5. reroute the wire to the full rpm output pad, be sure a little stick through the bottom of the PCB, if it doesnt, strip a bit off and re tin the wire.
6. solder the brown wire from the bottom to the appropriate pad, use an exacto knife to isolate the solder from any neighboring pads
7. repeate steps 1 and 2 in reverse, being sure no wires get in the way of closing the box

done!

Here are the Stage 1 and Stage 2 maps. Just rename them to .GSC


hold on a sec... the only difference between stage 1 and stage 2 is basically 1-2 degrees of timing and 1% more fuel adjustment???

I was going to comment on that. I don't remember seeing more agressive AFR map :confused:. The Stage 1.1 I thought was the combination of the Stage 1 and 2

stage 2 was always suppose to be more aggressive and require a high temp cat or midpipe.

Looking at these maps I'm glad I'm just starting from scratch... gee, i wonder if everyone is pinging because the damn map is adding 5 degrees of advance when the cars in closed loop aka 14.7 a/f !!!!

I have a few spots with 10-12degrees of advance added...no pinging

Ya know, I thought about doing this a while back and meant to ask Maurice about it, but forgot. Ah well.

As long as it's going now, here's my High-Altitude map. You'll need to rename it from .txt (which I did so I could post it) to .GSC so you can load it.

stage 1.1 was a physical and marketing combination of stage 1 and 2, not a tuning combination.

stage 1.1 was a physical and marketing combination of stage 1 and 2, not a tuning combination.Actually, Stage 1.1 was what some of us started calling the CanZoomer Stage 1 when the first fix came out, ala "fixpack 1" so Stage 1.1 - and the name just kinda stuck. It's nothing from Maurice himself. By this same reasoning, we'd now be at Stage 1.3 . :D

the units still ship with stage 1.1 written on them. the +.1 stage represents the addition of ignition circuitry

are there any maps or guidelines for tuning out there for running 89 octane gas??

I miss getting 2-3mpg better gas milage and paying 8 cents less a gallon with 89 octane over 93 octane...

here's my contribution...

map,
dyno data showing stock/4 degrees advance/6 degrees advance (done with Canscan calcs), - 10-20hp gain from 5500 - 9000 rpms
a/f ratios in 1/2 rpm scale



...the difference is quite noticable :p

Nice. But how come your ignition map is from 0.00 - 3.00 only? Doesn't yours go up to 4.05? Mine does. My ignition map is from cz1.1 which zooms in more where it really happens, 2.90 - 4.05.

From support tool logs, you really dont hit Airfow of less than 2.90 once you're in the 4000 rpm range. From looking at your map, if you do a trace map while running in the "performance range" I can bet that your tool will only run around the top 2 rows of your ignition map. Those are the only rows worth tuning the way you setup your airflow map. You know I would suggest you expand your tuning range from 2.90 - 4.00 or something. The rest below that is meaningless unless you are tuning anything below 4000 rpm. That way, you'll have more cells to control and fine tune; cells that actually matter.

I echo the same issue as Xyntax. Why are all of you using 0.00-3.00 V range. I have noticed most has that range for their advance. Unless I am wrong I do not think you will dip below 3.0 V unless you are running below 4000 RPM. Can you explain why are you are running this range? Why are the maps from Maurice come with both variations. I would like to hear your opinions. Many thanks in advance

Mark

this is a great thread guys. Just wanted to give you some recognition.

when you get above 3.0V the unit is just going to take values from the top line (as from what I was told)... so seeing that everything was pretty much constant on the top end I just left it at 3.0V for the max

^ That's not true. Try making your range between 3.00 - 4.05 and run a map trace. You will see the yellow marker run around your matrix. That means it is taking those adjustment values at every range not just top range.

I will have to agree with Xyntax again. I did exactly that and the trace runs around the matrix. Perhaps Maurice or RX friend can field this question. Please share your thoughts.

Thanks

Mark

well, the only difference in tuning on the graph I p0sted between "latest" and "previous" was adding the 2-4 degrees of timing wherever you don't see the 6 degrees of timing on the map (and where you see 6 degrees of timing it was 4 degrees)...

it sure feels like it made a difference to me as again if it goes over-range its just going to pick up the closest value from my understanding.

well... I am going to laod up your map as is, and see if I can see a difference. It sure would be nice if Maurice can offer some insight on this. I will let you know how the car feels after I try it. Thank you for the input

Mark

Does anyone have the Stage 2 map on a half RPM scale? Also, If you were to run the Stage 2 map without getting the midpipe would you have any damage other then the Cat? If not, would the cat just not last as long, or would it melt? Thanks for your help guys.

here's my contribution...

map,
dyno data showing stock/4 degrees advance/6 degrees advance (done with Canscan calcs), - 10-20hp gain from 5500 - 9000 rpms
a/f ratios in 1/2 rpm scale



...the difference is quite noticable :p


for what its worth, my car actually can run that map with only 89 octane it appears (ok my current tank is 3/4 89octane and 1/4 93 octane... i'll see what happens next tank i guess)

Just got the Stage 2 map for the Mflash. Thanks Maurice...He responded to my email within 5 mins. The question still remains though. Will it be safe to run the Stage two map with the stock Cat for a few months until I get the cash for a midpipe?I uploaded it this evening and ran the car for about an hour without any problems or hesitation...well a little hesitation, but that was on the way to the gas station to fill up with 93 because I was running 89 with no problems with stage 1. Anyway, there is a very noticeable difference in power between stage 1 and 2. I am very impressed... Any advise on the cat situation would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance :)

guys please bear with me as I am a newbie to the tuning world. I have the cz 1.1 and m flash. No problems with it/car. But i am interested in getting the stage 2 map and installing it in the cz unit. How do I do that?
thxs and great thread
olddragger

well, the gist of the process is...

- install the greddy software, and install the cable software
- plug in the programming cable to the cz unit with the funky looking USB side towards the unit and the other side in the computer
- turn the ignition to the "ON" position
- start the Greddy software
- It should start automatically. If you get a message that says you must work offline you need to click on OPTION and select a different com port. Repeat until it starts up and doesn't give you the offline message.
- Go to file and open the file you wish to upload
- If you don't want to modify the map just click on the Export Map Icon and you should see a progress bar and eventually that the export was sucessful.
- If you wish to modify the map click on the buttons for the a/f map and the ignition map. Basically putting a higher number in the a/f map will raise your a/f ratio, but you will need to get a feel for how much of a change it has (this is where a CANscan or O2 sensor will be beneficial). Ignition advance gets added in the ignition table directly (6 will give you 6 degrees of advance) but the change will not show up on a CANScan.

- This last step should be done at least the first time you use the unit...
- Go to Settings, Parameter Setting, and then click on the Throttle Setting button and folow the instructions to calibrate the CZ unit to your Throttle Posistion Sensor.

Happy rotoring !

jason hamilton did a nice write up on this, check it out

The stage 2 map USED to refer to one that Maurice had tuned a lot more ignition advance into, and it resulted in a LOT higher exhaust gas temperatures. Therefore, I'd be careful about running the Stage 2 map with a stock cat, or you may rapidly fry the cat.

guys please bear with me as I am a newbie to the tuning world. I have the cz 1.1 and m flash. No problems with it/car. But i am interested in getting the stage 2 map and installing it in the cz unit. How do I do that?
thxs and great thread
olddragger
Do you need the stage 2 map?

Vince

hey guys,
i took the chicken way out. since i had an "old version"of the cz I just sent it back to Mauricehad hime update the unit and install the stage 2 map. He gave me excellant service by the way. I have just installed it and I can tell a differance! It's much better above 5K! I do have some skipping at low(2-4K) that is transient in nature ONLY when its a load on the car. I think the computer is learning. Omicron thanks for the advice. I was aware of that though and still made that decision. I'm stupid. Rx3 thanks for the offer. Soon I hope to the get the can scan unit and start living in a new world.
zoom zoom guys
olddragger

If you have the stage 2 full rpm map just released and want to try and get rid of the sub 5K stutter......in the first line of the timing map change the #'s to all zeros. Mine were at 5 deg advance above 2.2V and my car didn't like it. Didn't seem to change performance just got rid of the hesitation

If you have the stage 2 full rpm map just released and want to try and get rid of the sub 5K stutter......in the first line of the timing map change the #'s to all zeros. Mine were at 5 deg advance above 2.2V and my car didn't like it. Didn't seem to change performance just got rid of the hesitation
What he said. Worked for me as well.

Vince

thanks guys. God bless this forum! Now I just will have to wait for a can scan and cable/software etc to get here. Man I miss the old days when I could just turn the distributor and mess with the carbs to tune! (other things too of course I m just keeping it simple). Course in those days we didnt have a forum like this to share all this great info either.
i appreciate it guys.
olddragger

If you have the stage 2 full rpm map just released and want to try and get rid of the sub 5K stutter......in the first line of the timing map change the #'s to all zeros. Mine were at 5 deg advance above 2.2V and my car didn't like it. Didn't seem to change performance just got rid of the hesitationDoes this also apply with the stage 1 map? I just turned my unit off and the stutter / hesitation went away. I have the canzoomer software & special usb-type cable, but not the CANScan yet.

If there is any advance on the first column ( effects everything below 4.4K) on some cars it will not like it. Make the first column on the left all zero's......should get rid of the stutter at low throttle/RPM.

You can try decreasing it a few deg at a time....but I tuned mine down in this area and it worked better

I don't know about this map. I have been running my car with this map. It is doing okay w/o knocks and ping. Using shell vpower gas 93 octane. seem to be leaned but I'm not sure, is there something wrong with this map. give me your input please. .......... hopefully I'm doing the maps and chart right so you can read them. 1st time. also I had to write the last column because I could not get it all on the paper. .............1/2 scale for rpm. these are zipped files copy them then open.

sorry i dont know how to post pictures

I don't know about this map. I have been running my car with this map. It is doing okay w/o knocks and ping. Using shell vpower gas 93 octane. seem to be leaned but I'm not sure, is there something wrong with this map. give me your input please. .......... hopefully I'm doing the maps and chart right so you can read them. 1st time. also I had to write the last column because I could not get it all on the paper. .............1/2 scale for rpm. these are zipped files copy them then open.
What map are you running and how does the car run?

Vince

What map are you running and how does the car run?

Vince

i used a stage 1 map that i got from canzoom then I adjusted that map. the car run good I would like to put the graph on the thread but when i try to upload from the computer i get a message that say i dont have authorization.

posting your map isn't going to help us tell you if there are any problems with it since each car is different. You would have to graph out your AFR readings.

I have the graph, for some reason I cant post it on the thread. I would love for everyone to see it. Maybe if somebody can instruct my on the proper way to do it.
When i made a copy of the graph, the damn thing is 10mb. that is big. it is in jpeg format

I just copied the image into paint using print screen and then saved the file as a gif image. It will be less than 100k.

Here is mine..

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=649761&postcount=15

I have the graph, for some reason I cant post it on the thread. I would love for everyone to see it. Maybe if somebody can instruct my on the proper way to do it.
When i made a copy of the graph, the damn thing is 10mb. that is big. it is in jpeg format

Ha! thank you guys I got it now. the file was too big. hope it work now

Damn thats aggressive :)

I dont think I am going to push mine that far... I liked your graph Jason.. It was very linear and predictable... Did you share that map earlier in the thread or are you selling it on the parts for sale page... :p

Ralph, if those numbers are correct, your running way too lean. See the green line that goes up and down? That's the target area. The bottom of that line is the minimum area desired, the upper area is the max. Your AFR graph shows much leaner - and in the highest rpm levels, you're extremely lean. That isn't good, but you should really feel the power with that setting....

Jason Hamilton
If I'm running too lean. and I do feel more power. I drive my car aggressive shitfting gear in 6000 rpm range. I burn more fuel but I like the feel. You say that this is not good what do you mean. Will it blow my engine or something like that. I'm a newbie at this stuff and I do like the feel but i don't want to blowup anything. if it reduces the cat's life only , than i'm not worried. the car is running fine,idling fine, no pings, knocks. using 93octane shell vpower only. 13k miles. using this map for 2 months. what happens with a RX8 running too lean.

Ralph, to activate your CZ properly, floor the throttle - put the peddle all the way down. That's called WOT. When you do that, you're going to get the full CZ power. Your CZ will be fully activated when over 5000 rpm and with your peddle to the metal.

The top of that green line is the leanest AFR that you can safely run. Going above that isn't going to kill your car right away, and there is a safeguard that prevents your car from going above 20 AFR.... but I recommend not running that map anymore.
ok I will make it not so lean. Iwill try to go out tonight and adjust my map

thank you for the info. I have not driven the car in 2 weeks

His car went lean at the end of his graph most likely because he got off of the gas. I would make another run and see if that repeats - my guess is it won't as i don't see anything in his map that would cause a spike like that.

I would tone things down a bit around 6600 rpms when you get the teriary ports closing and an instant of very lean conditions. Your timing advance is also pushing the limits so make sure you always fill up with some good gas.

His car went lean at the end of his graph most likely because he got off of the gas. I would make another run and see if that repeats - my guess is it won't as i don't see anything in his map that would cause a spike like that.

I would tone things down a bit around 6600 rpms when you get the teriary ports closing and an instant of very lean conditions. Your timing advance is also pushing the limits so make sure you always fill up with some good gas.


That is correct about the graph i did take my foot off the gas. See i have the laptop,in the driver seat and trying to push the stop button ,watching traffic,looking at rpm gauge, ithink Iwill have to do this with someone in the car with me. I have been running alone at night.

I would check 3rd gear....I agree with Jason....overall too lean..esp 8K area. I tuned mine to give me 13.6 and 13.2 above 8K. Watch 4th and fifth...they seem to run a leaner map under load.....they may go very lean on you with second that lean

This is very strange....

I used the default "Stage 2" map, and saw it had some dips that needed to be corrected on my car. So I moved the dip point up by one point, and a point that was in excess of 14 AFR down by one point. The resulting map was just as bad as before...

So I changed my CZ to full rpm, and ran the same exact map without any changes other than changing the half RPM scale to full RPM.

The result looks pretty damn nice. What do you guys think? I also attach the map used (rename .txt to .GSC)

Oh you already did in this post.. Got it.. thankx :)

When you say you changed the scale from half RPM to full RPM...are you talking about the scale when editing the CZ map itself using the EManage software...while plugged into the CZ unit itself?

He's talking about the daughter board inside your Canzoomer unit. His write up explains how to do it.

http://tyrannical.org/page-15

Rev_2_9K and I have been experimenting with different maps for his CZ box for about the last 2 weeks. We’ve gotten pretty familiar with the canscan software and the emanage program, but we are having issues with getting consistent logs of our runs. We use the same map, but yet its like the ECU somehow learns what were doing and overrides the emanage. So in other words, we could get the A/F in the nice 13.xxx’s and then two days later its down in the low 12’s, with the same map.

1. Who else has been getting these kinds of inconsistencies? Do most of you guys get a good map to be stable and log consistent A/F’s?
2. We have been getting a A/F spike in the 17-18 range at about 6200-6400rpm, that we can’t seem to dial out. Even with the map set pretty low (in the 10-15 range) this is still an issue. How much of an effect do you guys notice from the port opening.
3. Rev’s unit is currently operating in the ½ RPM mode, would altering the unit improve our consistency issues (can’t really see how but….) or just make the math in our head easier?
4. Can the ignition maps cause issues? I believe Rev is running the most aggressive ignition map from CZ while we are trying to tune the A/F.
5. How important is the partial throttle portion of the map?

Our biggest issue is really getting a map to return consistent canscan logs over time. I know that the emanage must be able to work consistently, or the greddy turbo kit among others would have real issues. Its really frustrating to spend hours tweaking a map to only see it made useless two days later in our logs.

I appreciate your insight on this.

Same problem over in the auto tuning thread. After the ECU undoes your map, what happens if you turn off the unit? Does the A/F really go into the toilet?

I can't really be much help here, as once I got the map to where I liked it, I haven't done much monitoring of it with my CanScan. Guess I need to check it.

Damned if this blasted PCM doesn't seem like it's too smart for it's own good! :confused:

I can't really be much help here, as once I got the map to where I liked it, I haven't done much monitoring of it with my CanScan. Guess I need to check it.

Damned if this blasted PCM doesn't seem like it's too smart for it's own good! :confused:

I would be very appreciative if you could log your car and see if your map is still holding true. Are you tuning at half rpm or full?

I'm wondering if you get to aggressive if the car somehow changes the mixture, I don't see how thats possible if your in open loop and your able to change the maf voltage, but who knows.

In addition, the base CZ maps seem really weak given that to get our results, we were using 35-43 at one point to get our results, is that them just being conservative?

I did today, recheck. Mine catscan graph looks identical to stock car with no CZ. Bummer, I am wondering if I am doing something wrong, or perhpas it is true the PCM is sensing the change, and adjusting the fuel. Now I have 0 gain. I am wondering how long it takes for the PCM to sense the new maps? We need Maurice's help on this one.

Mark

Hey guys:


Thought I'd chime in here since I'm "trying" to tune my auto 8 in another thread. A few Sunday's back Speed Racer and I were able to get some A/F tuning down to almost where we wanted it. We did not want to go too aggressive as the ECU would see the drastic change and put everything back to stock. We'll I ran with the changes for about 5 days and rechecked the maps and voila, they were going back to stock :(

Either we went too aggressive with the changes or something is up where the stock ECU is "smart" enough to see the changes that it starts changing the maps. Anyone have any idea's? We were supposed to do some more tuning today but with over a foot and a half of snow on the ground, we cancelled ;) We'll be doing some more tuning in the upcoming weeks. I also had a question about throttle % at idle and WOT. I'm getting readings (from the CANscan) of 16% at idle and 78% at WOT. Does this sound right? Have any of you guys checked this on your 6sp? If so, please post up.

PS I am tuning at full RPM

oops did not read brillo


^^^^^^^^^^^^ what he said

Guys,
Am I reading this correctly? I was on the verge of ordering the tuning package and I read this. I think I will now place this order on hold. Whats up with it not holding a tune? I hope the turbo boys are reading this. Although I can't imangine G reddy not being aware of this issue. If and when they break the password to increase the boost they be setting themselves up for real problems.
Damn.
olddragger

I don’t think its time to panic quite yet, there a lot of variables that could contribute to our issue. First, the turbo guys are likely richening their mixtures, and the computer may be fine with that, and not with leaning it out after a certain point. Second, I’m not sure what if any part the aggressive ignition maps play in this. Just because your not pinging doesn’t mean the computer might say uncle as well. Greddy in that interview with RX tuner did allude to issues with ignition and advance as to why they backed off a bit on the turbo kits power since they didn’t have cold enough plugs. In addition, greddy (ie trust) is a well respected company that I'd be willing to be money on, wouldn't release a turbo kit until they were positive that they had the computer variables under control. Therefore, we know the emanage works at some levels.

What I think we may have stumbled onto is the real reason the FI kits took so long to come out. We knew the computer was going to be a bitch to deal with, and maybe all the aftermarket companies spent months making sure that they had maps that would stay consistent. I’ve gotta believe that the greddy folks especially can whip out a wiring harness and get a emanage working on any car in a day or so. We got comfortable with the software and testing parameters in a weekend, so I imagine any aftermarket company could just as easily learn the system. However, as far as testing goes, there is no way to speed up time, and this problem we have found may have been the holdup. There may be some special “secret” range where the computer will live with the emanage changing the mixture. Bottom line, I’m not ready to freak out just yet, lets do some more investigation amongst those with the CZ or emanage.

One thing somewhat should also try is to log with the canscan their A/F and Ignition in stock form several times over two weeks, just to make sure that those are consistent, and we aren’t on a wild goose chase b/c the canscan software is messed up.

i checked my a/f ratio about 2 months after i did my tune and it was still fine and now a good 5 months later i still can feel the kick i tuned into it...


I however did my tuning over a few weeks only doing 1 run a day basically at the end because i discovered very quickly that if you start the car up, do a quick run, shut it off and repeat a few times the learning mode of the ecu will adjust itself for aggressive driving (which is not my normal style of driving) and will go very rich on you in a hurry. PLus if you do too many runs back to back the cat temp gets hot and remains hot which seems to cause the ecu to richen things up alot.

i checked my a/f ratio about 2 months after i did my tune and it was still fine and now a good 5 months later i still can feel the kick i tuned into it...


I however did my tuning over a few weeks only doing 1 run a day basically at the end because i discovered very quickly that if you start the car up, do a quick run, shut it off and repeat a few times the learning mode of the ecu will adjust itself for aggressive driving (which is not my normal style of driving) and will go very rich on you in a hurry. PLus if you do too many runs back to back the cat temp gets hot and remains hot which seems to cause the ecu to richen things up alot.

Now this is good info, anyone else notice this?

I did today, recheck. Mine catscan graph looks identical to stock car with no CZ. Bummer, I am wondering if I am doing something wrong, or perhpas it is true the PCM is sensing the change, and adjusting the fuel. Now I have 0 gain. I am wondering how long it takes for the PCM to sense the new maps? We need Maurice's help on this one.

Mark
Check to see if your TP setting is gone......check the map trace. Mine did that once...then it will revert to stock A/F...

Jason,

If you make the changes too large and/or over a short period of time the car will compensate with a long term fuel trim. This is very easy to see with CANscan and it also explains why one day your A/F ratios look good and a couple of days later they are right back to the stock levels.

I got a little over zealous with tuning my10ae's car and have data logs that show the base and tuned A/F ratios. I also have a log from 5 days later which shows that the ECU significantly changed the A/F ratios and it was actually running richer than where we started. It gets a bit frustrating when you feel like your are aiming for a moving target.

That's why you only want to tune the open loop areas......they won't trigger fuel trims. In closed loop...it can negate adding 40% fuel. Does anyone know if the fuel trims carry forward into the open loop areas statically IE will a +40 at conversion to open loop result in that carrying over into the open loop fuel map??

That is what we tried to do. If you look at the chart you will see that the A/F ratios on the 4-port engine look great until ~6200 RPMs. Then it goes pig rich and falls below the range of the wide band O2 sensor.

It took us about 10 runs (3% change with each run) before we were able to get the changes to even show up on the wideband sensor. Once we got the A/F ratio around 6-7k RPMs up to 13-13.5 we noticed that the 5-6k RPM range had gone pig rich. At that point the CZ map was all zeros in the 5-6k RPM range. So by the end of that tuning session we had made adjustments from 5k-redline with the biggest changes focusing on 6k+. When we finished the car was running noticeable stronger and things looked promising.

A few days later I asked my10ae to datalog the A/F ratios again and noticed that it was running pig rich again. Not only was it running rich but it started to misbehave about a 1k RPMs sooner than stock. :(

My plan at this point is to clear the memory on the ECU, zero the maps, and start tuning from scratch again. This time I'm only going to make a couple of small changes and I'll ask my10ae to live with it for a few days. Then we will do another data log, if the numbers stay the same I'll make a few more incremental changes. Hopefully after a few tuning sessions we will have a stable map with proper A/F ratios.

question? SO as I understand it, to many changes, or too big of change , over too short of a time period can result in a sort of a oem ecu override negating your tune? Correct?
With that in mind what happens if you remove your unit then replace it later? Say a few days or so. Or if you just turn the unit off then turn it back on some days later?
ALmost makes you want to run a damn throttle cable on this thing doesnt it. (jk I know its a lot more complicated than that)
olddragger

It should only negate your tuning if you are triggering fuel trims in closed loop areas, then it will learn around the changes. I haven't had a problem with it tuning in open loop areas.

I can't see how it cares how fast you make changes in the areas that it doesn't do feedback based tuning.

I’m not sure if this has anything to do with this, but tonight i did some tuning and i found out that the closer you seem to get to 30 degrees of timing the lower the a/f ratio gets. I had a pretty good a/f map and then changed the timing and the whole thing went to shit.

It's easy to do if your not careful with the part throttle adjustments. I've tuned mine down to 30% throttle in higher A/F areas....sometimes it will be in closed loop depending on the gear, and rate of change in TP.
How much total advance are you running? and where? I find that it tolerates it mid RPM's the best...taper it off on the higher RPM's..or where it tends to lean out in a few areas.

One thing I have noticed is that it seems to make a difference where a tuning run starts...it seems to carry forward a rich condition if it starts rich in the first place. That's why I'm trying more part throttle tuning...to try and stave off pig rich...so it is easier to correct

I’m not sure if this has anything to do with this, but tonight i did some tuning and i found out that the closer you seem to get to 30 degrees of timing the lower the a/f ratio gets. I had a pretty good a/f map and then changed the timing and the whole thing went to shit.

I've been wondering about this, I've heard that ~26degrees is about as much as you want to run, from RotaryGod, and I think the aggresive Ignition map pushes you over this number.

Rev_2_9K was using the stage 2 ignition maps which could account for part of our problem with the CZ box giving us consistent numbers. In addition, from what I have read in the latest issue of RXTuner, Greddy left the ignition alone with their turbo kit, another indication

When I get my unit tomorrow, I'm going to work on the A/F only first, then introduce some timing advance slowly.

In addition, from what I have read in the latest issue of RXTuner, Greddy left the ignition alone with their turbo kit, another indication
Since no one has cracked the maps yet....we don't know what they have done. I can't help but think that due to compression, and other parameters of this engine...that they have used some retard in the ignition maps under boost.

Someone please get the password for this thing :)

Hi, this is the map that I am using for my cz unit. It is tune based on weather on San Jose. 50'F raining.

Anyway, I will post the graph tomorrow. It is more agressive map.

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=700724&postcount=103

I will do long run test (3rd/4th gear) this weekend if I can wake up early.

Hope it can produce the constant result.

Nice work!

Vince

This is the result I got from testing my map out in weekend.

1. Saturday night temp drop until 38'F , my A/F around 6.2 k go over 20.x so I retuned my map. (even during 4.5k rpm stock map). -
2. Saturday morning, I did 4th gear test until 7.8k only (coz the speed limit on highway is only 65mph *wink). A/F for 6.0k->6.4k is abit high (lean, close/abit over to 14.7)

As a conclusion, I retuned my map abit rich nowaday. When the map stable abit, I will upload the new map to replace my old map on this web. If anyone wanna used it, it is at your own risk. I tuned my car this time with the coolent temp around 180->190 degree. No more tuning on low temp like saturday night.

One more thing, although it is a open loop, the ecu still able to learn from the 1st run to retarded the timing for the 2nd run (using the same map for both run).

So tuned maps are sensitive to ambient temps? And, that means let the ecu adjust before you drive hard? This sounds a bit labor intensive in monitoring and changing due to temp fluct. I live in Ga and one day it will be in 30's ,the next day it will be in the 60's. Or am I thinking wrong? My head hurts.
olddragger

Aren't there ambient temp & pressure sensors for the ECU to make compensations for? And if so, how does it compensate, knowing those conditions? And if we know that it does, and how, do we need to make compensatoins for those compensations? And if so, how should we compensate, knowing those compensations?

will the sensor knew how dense is the air?
For my case, the first run on cold condition always bad, then the second one will be richer than the first one. (it means the A/F go below the 14.7 for most of the case). Maybe I did not get the correct data. I will keep logging my cascan data.

Anyone with more data?????

Data? Well, here's something I discovered about my car after the Dyno last Saturday.

I ran my map first, and then stock stage 2 and then cleared out all adjustments to zero (equal to turning CZ off). Below is the graph of all those runs containing AFR, Ignition Advance, and Airflow.

There is one thing that buggles my mind right now. Looking at the comparison charts with my Airflow lines, I have this question:

"Why is there more airflow at the top end for stock (Red)? With CZ on, it never reaches that point. (Blue and Green)"

http://www.deanq.com/stuff/xyntax_canscan_airflow.gif

Now I'm thinking about doing a map without ignition adjustments. It seems like the RX-8 ECU is really good with ignition timing without CZ's adjustments. Just look at the flat AFR and Ignition Line it produces in the stock data (Red). That flat line in the red ignition is 30 btw.

Anyone have any ideas about this?

about the stock air flow more than the modified air flow. Maybe because the canscan get the data after cz modify it. It also means that the cz told the ecu we got less air in the engine, then the ecu inject less fuel in the system. what u collect from canscan is the data cz modified, not the original data from air flow sensor.

Wonder I am correct or not on this.

^ Oh damn, I never thought about that correlation. I think you are right. Sheesh, how could I missed that. I just checked the red airflow lines in comparison to blue and green at the lower rpms before the highlighted section, it does seem like there's more airflow reported in stock form. Alright, alright, I'll dismiss it :D

I still like the idea to start tunning w/o any ignition adjustment.

Now I redo my map using the ignition map from Genome Original Stage II. and zero out all Airflow map.

Will see.

just something to think about for the people out there tuning...

In october when it was about 70 degrees out my map was tuned to about 13.0 a/f . I haven't done anything to it in 4 months now and last weekend I checked it on a 25 degree day and the a/f ratio was about 13.5. Which makes sense with the colder and denser air and I fully expected it, but it could be alarming if people with more aggressive maps tuned in summer are still using them in the winter (providing it actually gets cold where you are in the winter....).

This is also the reason, I try to tune mine during this period of time, mostly around 50 'F at night

Some of you who are tuning have posted that the car ECU "learns" a long term fuel trim and adjusts against the tuning.
You are right!
BUT:
The car checks AFR when it is in closed loop mode.
That is below 70% throttle, and below the closed loop/open loop transition rpm.
So, what IS the transition rpm?
By measurement:
1st gear: 6,200rpm
2nd gear: 5,500rpm
3rd gear: 4,800rpm
4th gear and up - same as 3rd.

So, some lessons to derive from this:
1) Tune above transition point ( 6,200) and do NOT touch the fuel/air below 6,200 unless it is only 5% or less.
2) If you want to tune down to 5,500 avoid full throttle in 1st gear below 6,200
3) If you want it tune more, and want to get around the "learned"long term trims, simply disconnect the battery ground if the ECU "learns" a fule trim.
This returns the car to default fuel/air settings.
Of course it will "learn" again, so this is not a long term solutiion.
I installed a replacement battery groundpost that has a 1/4 turn knob to disconnect. This allows for quick and easy resets.

Also, regarding weather and temperatures:
If you tune in cold weather the air is denser.
When you run at a higher temp the air is less dense.
That means the mixture will be a bit different.
Humidity will also affect it.
The car has a barometric perssure sensor as well, so it does compensate for altitude and air pressure change due to weather, however it does not have a means for detecting humidity.
My advice, if doing fairly aggressive maps is to do a set for both cold/dry conditions and for warm/wet ones.
Save them and use as needed.

Good info CZ. I'm almost at the ready point of trying to tune a little more out of er. I was holding back because of the info on the ecu learning and nullifying you work. The battery trick is slick. Still have to reset all your radio stations lol! Again thanks for this
olddragger
I know you are a long way off but I wish you could be at Road Atlanta with us on march 19/20 last count I believe we will have 10 RX8's on the track at the same time!

Can someone post their stock 1.1 map (actual GSC file) and the stock 2 map? I have looked all over the place and can't find either. I have inadvertently wiped out my default 1.1 map and don't have a backup.

Thanks!

Here............ I think these are the latest.

Thank you!

I'm running a 1/2 RPM CZ unit. What would I have to do to upload these? I'd convert the CZ to a full RPM, but my CZ is pre-GB#2 and don't have that ability.

Hopefully someone will have the half rpm maps...or e-mail Maurice


maurice@harddata.com and ask him for them

yeah, I shot him an e-mail. Hopefully he responds.

Thank you for your help.

I got one. It was my CZ 1.1 stock map.

This is exactly what I was looking for! Thank you! :)

Is there something you have to do to convert the file from TXT?

yeah, change it to a .GSC extension. The forums don't allow that extension to be uploaded.

How do i do that?

right click to remame.. delete the .txt :D

When I try to open the file it says "the old format was replaced with new format" I click ok then when I try to export it, It says I performed and illgeal operation and shut my Greddy software down.

Make sure you've got the latest version of the Greddy support tool.

whats the lastest version? and where do I get it?

Latest version is 1.13.

You can go grab the upgrade along with the newer firmware here:
http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/

Sweet thanks.

Well, I got my CZ in today, tuned it, and here I am what do ya think. By the looks of my stock it really wasn't too bad but of course could be made better. :D

Can you post your log file also? Rename it test.log.txt

Your AFR scale can be altered to read better on the graph.

sure as soon as I can get back home on sat. I'll post the log, I've also done more work so I'll also post my current log

im having the same probelm with my e-manage softwre. I cant open anything on this forum. Can someone email me their map and where exactly i can get the updates. ther are tons of them but done know which one to use. my email is xdrian@hotmail.com


thnx in advance

Be careful with confusing Blue E-Manage maps with Gold E-Manage maps. They are not compatible. Then be careful with Half RPM maps vs. Full RPM maps. I started with a blank map then starting leaning out the rich spots slower over time.

xdrain, what CZ unit do you own?

i just got cz 1.1 its running richer than my stock setup

Nemesis8,

wat is the different between both blue and gold e-manage maps?

I'm not totally for sure what changed, but I do know that I cannot open the Gold version of the E-Manage maps with my software. Both dannobre and westcoastfun sent me maps that would crash the support tool. It was not until I found out that they both had Maurice upgrade their CZ units to the newer gold boards. The original CZ were all blue versions.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v168/xdrian/
here are the two runs with and without CZ

I also go al the way up to reline when i do these tests i done know why it only shows up till 6000 or 5000 rpm

The version of the software is different, and the way the the do the throttle setting is abit different. (this is wat I notice)

I got the gold model too.

The support tool is different? I have version 1.13

I left my note book at home, I will post my version of the software tonite.

My version is support tool 1.24, Update file is 1.42

whats the advantage of switching to gold?

Dannobre has the Gold version, maybe he can chime in for a chat :)

Dan, you never chimed in...

What's everyone's voltage scale for the ignition map? I think we all have different scales.

Gold version using the throttle % for the ignition map. It is more predictable

hi

unable to open the map

got the 1.25a tool version ...

What map?

anyone have a map for use in combo with a 3" catless exhaust and AEM cold-air intake? i don't have much room to tune around here without blowing crazy money at the dyno...

and in reply to Maurice's battery cut-off/ecu-reset switch, a more logical thing to do would be to find the power supply wire to the car's ECU and add a switch to that, and mount it on the ECU cover, or better yet in the glove box - so it's easily accesible. This will avoid having to reset the radio and/or anything else you may have installed.

Anyone know which wire that is?

Couldn't be too hard to figure out

i just bought a stage 1.1 from a forum member and i am looking to upgrade to stage 2 if anyone has the maps please post them and how do i download them to the CZ??

thanks,
Jay

Since I harddisk crashed awhile ago, i did not have any old data for cz, I did not used cz for like 1 yr already :) sorry

can anyone help me out???

PM'ed you.
I've got the original Canzoomer map for stage 2. You can get it from Canzoomer himself too.

Hi guys,
can I use the maps for Us specs rx8 on my car Eu specs?
Thanks in advance.

It's the same car. Different countries just have different emmisions regulations. You should be fine. We here in the U.S. would love to get our hands on the Japanese ECU/Map. If you are using a piggyback like the Canzoomer or better yet, a stand alone ECU, then you would be better off tuning specifically for your car.

It's the same car. Different countries just have different emmisions regulations. You should be fine. We here in the U.S. would love to get our hands on the Japanese ECU/Map. If you are using a piggyback like the Canzoomer or better yet, a stand alone ECU, then you would be better off tuning specifically for your car.
Hi and thanks for your prompt reply! I have on my 8 a Revi with duct, high flow cat and Rb exhaust. Usually I use only fuel with 98 or 100 octane.
Now I have bought a canzoomer unit with stage 2 map loaded. Do you think that this map is good for my setup?
Thanks in advance

Gerry76, your Canzoomer box will work well with your intake and exhaust mods. Here is a good site on how to tune on your own using the Canzoomer. http://rotaryinsider.com/rx8-10.html
:)

after reading this whole thread I am seriously considering a CZ- especially since a used one can be had for pretty cheap :)