So Cal Auto Cross thread - Sponsored by San Bernardino meet - by ROTORLUTION Racing
11-27-2006, 10:34 PM
#801
Originally Posted by kwescott
I'm wondering....now granted, I never raced on good street tires...I was on the stock tires....but have either Jason's raced....in competition, with the RX8 on street tires (of any kind other than the V700's)?
I know that you said we would gain 3 seconds by switching to 245 R's....but I gained way more than that over the stock street tires I was using....gained another 1.5 with the upgrade to 285's...so, is it reasonable to assume that I now have a 3-3.4 second advantage over a street-tire equipped car...? (just asking cause I know how close Cesar, Casey and I were when we did practice events on the street tires together....we were all within 1.0-1.5 seconds)....
I know that you said we would gain 3 seconds by switching to 245 R's....but I gained way more than that over the stock street tires I was using....gained another 1.5 with the upgrade to 285's...so, is it reasonable to assume that I now have a 3-3.4 second advantage over a street-tire equipped car...? (just asking cause I know how close Cesar, Casey and I were when we did practice events on the street tires together....we were all within 1.0-1.5 seconds)....
3 secs would be the most extreme, 2 is more like it. You will not see 1.5 going from 245 to 285 Rs. By Pax BSP is only 1.5 faster than BS with, flywheel, intake, headers, ECU, race suspension, etc so 1.5 from tires alone would put BSP 2-2.5 faster than BS.
Do you think maybe in the last year you guys have improved as drivers?
I doubt you were ever getting 100% out of your stock street tires, so you saw a big improvement due to overdriving.
11-27-2006, 10:36 PM
#802
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Originally Posted by mp5
I agree with everything except this...
11-27-2006, 10:36 PM
#803
Originally Posted by kwescott
I don't get it, does this mean that Ulllose would put street tires on his 8 and still beat us....? Now, that would be an interesting competition.....
11-27-2006, 10:38 PM
#804
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
I doubt you were ever getting 100% out of your stock street tires, so you saw a big improvement due to overdriving.
It looks like he will be joining us more during our 2nd RX8 cup Season...so we will probably see a closing of the gap.
11-27-2006, 10:48 PM
#805
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
No I would put 275 street tires on YOUR car and still beat you.
11-27-2006, 10:59 PM
#806
I forgot about a couple of times I did run the same car on ST tires VS R tires. back in 2001 I was co-driving a Dodge Neon in DS. I was running Kumho Victoracers, the older race tire which is about 1 sec slower than a V710, and during fun runs at the end of an event I did runs on the Falken 215. The 215 is thought by some to be faster than the new Falken 615, in fact the car that set quick time at natls this year in STS was on an old set of 215s but he got DQed, I ended up beating my time on the race tire with the street tire by a tenth.
In 2002 I got a set of preproduction Kumho MX street tires for testing and was only 1 sec slower on my Corvette than the Victoracer. I also had a data system in the car and the MX was within .2gs of the R tires.
Some cars, light, low power or AWD don't see a big gain from ST to R tires. A 2wd heavy or high powered car will see a big gain.
Now the current crop of R tires are much faster than the old ones but the street tires that are out there now are faster than the R tires I started with only 10 years ago.
In 2002 I got a set of preproduction Kumho MX street tires for testing and was only 1 sec slower on my Corvette than the Victoracer. I also had a data system in the car and the MX was within .2gs of the R tires.
Some cars, light, low power or AWD don't see a big gain from ST to R tires. A 2wd heavy or high powered car will see a big gain.
Now the current crop of R tires are much faster than the old ones but the street tires that are out there now are faster than the R tires I started with only 10 years ago.
Last edited by ULLLOSE; 11-27-2006 at 11:08 PM.
11-28-2006, 11:01 AM
#808
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
My old index proposal:
I am thinking the index should work out along these lines based on a 60 sec course:
stock on street tires 60 sec X .95 index = 57.0
BS/STU 58.2 sec X .98 index = 57.0
BSP/SM 57.0 sec
With the old system a Stock class ST guy was 1.8 behind BS and a BS/STU car was 1.2 behind BSP/SM on a 60 sec course.
Maybe we should break this out a little more so as to not be so harsh to the guy with street tires and cross-drilled rotors, STU car, as well as maybe plan ahead for a real SM car.
Street Mod 1.00, strait time.
BSP .99
BS .975
STU .97
BS street tire .94
SM-60 sec
BSP- 60.7 X .99=60
BS- 61.55 X .975=60
STU- 61.85 X .97=60
BSST- 63.85 X .94=60
This puts a BSP car .7 behind a SM car. A BS car is .8 behind a BSP car. An STU car is .3 behind a BS car. A BSST car is 2.3 behind a BS car. So we cut the BSP-BS gap by .4 from the old index. Gave the BS-BSST .5 more and gave the STU guy a .3 break off of BS.
For our purposes we can call a SM car any RX8 with forced induction or interior removed and all BSP allowed mods are ok. That way a BSP car with a body kit and wing can still be in "BSP". A BS street tire car is any car with BS class mods and street tires of 140 tread-wear or higher. An STU car can be any car beyond BS specs, even allow BSP mods, and runs on 140 tread-wear or higher.
I am thinking the index should work out along these lines based on a 60 sec course:
stock on street tires 60 sec X .95 index = 57.0
BS/STU 58.2 sec X .98 index = 57.0
BSP/SM 57.0 sec
With the old system a Stock class ST guy was 1.8 behind BS and a BS/STU car was 1.2 behind BSP/SM on a 60 sec course.
Maybe we should break this out a little more so as to not be so harsh to the guy with street tires and cross-drilled rotors, STU car, as well as maybe plan ahead for a real SM car.
Street Mod 1.00, strait time.
BSP .99
BS .975
STU .97
BS street tire .94
SM-60 sec
BSP- 60.7 X .99=60
BS- 61.55 X .975=60
STU- 61.85 X .97=60
BSST- 63.85 X .94=60
This puts a BSP car .7 behind a SM car. A BS car is .8 behind a BSP car. An STU car is .3 behind a BS car. A BSST car is 2.3 behind a BS car. So we cut the BSP-BS gap by .4 from the old index. Gave the BS-BSST .5 more and gave the STU guy a .3 break off of BS.
For our purposes we can call a SM car any RX8 with forced induction or interior removed and all BSP allowed mods are ok. That way a BSP car with a body kit and wing can still be in "BSP". A BS street tire car is any car with BS class mods and street tires of 140 tread-wear or higher. An STU car can be any car beyond BS specs, even allow BSP mods, and runs on 140 tread-wear or higher.
I am fine with all of this. I agree with the SM car rules.
but do you think there is a big enough gap between BS and BSP? .8 seconds I dont think is "fair" to you guys. (again shooting myself in the foot). I would think 1.2 or 1.1 seconds would be more "fair".
only other thing I would suguest is maybe a SMALL change for STU. instead of .3 maybe .4 seconds. STU tires are not as good, but of course STU cars can do a LOT more to their cars. or maybe .35 seconds?.....
all in all I am pretty happy with the new nubers. except maybe the BSP BS gap.
11-28-2006, 11:05 AM
#809
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then again, after looking at the results. that means Jason M. still would not have beat Isley.... would have been close though! maybe that is a "fair" number
11-28-2006, 11:18 AM
#810
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Jason M 58.646
Jason I 58.931
Casey 59.544
Jennifer 60.808
Keith 60.887
Erica 63.060
Michelle 64.326
Cesar 65.405
Ken Sterk 66.001
Denward 66.011
Kevin Sequeira 68.459
Jason I 58.931
Casey 59.544
Jennifer 60.808
Keith 60.887
Erica 63.060
Michelle 64.326
Cesar 65.405
Ken Sterk 66.001
Denward 66.011
Kevin Sequeira 68.459
11-28-2006, 11:28 AM
#811
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ok this should be it.
Last edited by speeddemon32; 11-28-2006 at 03:16 PM.
11-28-2006, 12:32 PM
#813
IstanbulNotConstantinople
Also, mine and gh0st's app are in the mail today.
And, what class is my car "actually" supposed to be in, assuming I'm running regular 245 street tires?
I have springs/swaybars/exhaust/flywheel/pulleys/short shifter/strut towers braces front & rear.
And, what class is my car "actually" supposed to be in, assuming I'm running regular 245 street tires?
I have springs/swaybars/exhaust/flywheel/pulleys/short shifter/strut towers braces front & rear.
Last edited by FastRX8; 11-28-2006 at 12:34 PM.
11-28-2006, 12:49 PM
#815
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no wonder the S.B. thread is so slow, everyone's in here! Cesar, that's awesome that you're gonna start Auto X'ing your car more next season, best of luck man! Give these guys a good run for their money...
11-28-2006, 12:56 PM
#816
Originally Posted by cesaralaniz
Also, mine and gh0st's app are in the mail today.
And, what class is my car "actually" supposed to be in, assuming I'm running regular 245 street tires?
I have springs/swaybars/exhaust/flywheel/pulleys/short shifter/strut towers braces front & rear.
And, what class is my car "actually" supposed to be in, assuming I'm running regular 245 street tires?
I have springs/swaybars/exhaust/flywheel/pulleys/short shifter/strut towers braces front & rear.
11-28-2006, 01:11 PM
#817
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Not to be an *** or anything but how would they know Cesar has a flywheel? Is it just on the 'honor system' for mods like that since the Techs won't see it?
11-28-2006, 01:20 PM
#818
IstanbulNotConstantinople
Yes, it's just the honor system.
I'm not concerned w/ competing against everyone else in the class, I'm only concerned w/ competing for the RX8 Cup.
I'm just trying to figure out how much time I would get racing w/ street tires.
I'm not concerned w/ competing against everyone else in the class, I'm only concerned w/ competing for the RX8 Cup.
I'm just trying to figure out how much time I would get racing w/ street tires.
11-28-2006, 01:26 PM
#819
Originally Posted by Jedi54
Not to be an *** or anything but how would they know Cesar has a flywheel? Is it just on the 'honor system' for mods like that since the Techs won't see it?
At most local events this would not be an issue, only at a Natl tour or Prosolo would something happen, however an illegal car is an illegal car and it is not fair to the guys in the class that play by the rules.
I did put in our RX8cup index/rules post we could allow BSP mods, flywheel, to be scored as STU if that is what everyone wants.
11-28-2006, 01:30 PM
#820
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Originally Posted by ULLLOSE
I did put in our RX8cup index/rules post we could allow BSP mods, flywheel, to be scored as STU if that is what everyone wants.
11-28-2006, 01:44 PM
#823
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exactly.... if Cesar were to run BSP with us, RX-8 cup would score him as an STU car.
there is no way I would consider his car with 245 street tires a BSP car.
Cesar would not be compadative in STU or BSP, I would recomend you just run BSP with the rest of us. at least that way you get to run with the rest of the group..... and then you leave yourself open to buy tires later!
Erica, you can set it up that way in your profile.
there is no way I would consider his car with 245 street tires a BSP car.
Cesar would not be compadative in STU or BSP, I would recomend you just run BSP with the rest of us. at least that way you get to run with the rest of the group..... and then you leave yourself open to buy tires later!
Erica, you can set it up that way in your profile.
11-28-2006, 01:48 PM
#824
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Jason I - I agree with the cheating comments. If someone blatantly cheats with 'performance' mods, then those guys have stooped to a new low and deserve to be punished. (not implying that Cesar should cheat or that he ever would)
LOL, we need to put an MS wing on Cesar's car so he can help to take over BSP 'ilegally" I still laugh when I see Keith's comment.
LOL, we need to put an MS wing on Cesar's car so he can help to take over BSP 'ilegally" I still laugh when I see Keith's comment.
11-28-2006, 01:50 PM
#825
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Originally Posted by mp5
That sounds good to me.