kwescott

He has been competing since then, but not in his Supra....but in an old Celica.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

We never talked about a tie breaker before... The way things are KC and KW could end up in a tie for 3rd if at the next event KC is 2nd and KW 4th. I would suggest in the event of a tie adding up the points with only one drop to break the tie.

So how does the big picture look.... 1st is locked up, I can take a 0 and win

2nd place is still an possible for KW, you should hate yourself now for letting mp5 drive your car, if KW wins the last one he will have 94pts. Now for mp5 to take 2nd with KW winning he would need 3rd place or better points.

3rd is still in striking distance for KC, just needs 6 points more than KW at the last one, so with a win and KW in 3rd or worse KC can take it.

SnowFl8k

How come Michelle and I don't get any points for yesterday? we had to have at LEAST made 12th for 1 point! really?

speeddemon32

you got it.

if things go like "normal" 1-4 are done. unless you or someone does not show. then it could make it intersting. (I anticipate everyone showing, and everyone running normal order.) even if I beat keith at the next one, odds are he will still be withing a place or two of me. not enough for me to take 3rd.

same with him and Jason M.

next year is going to suck for us with the new indexing points. (it is fair though). I am excited mostly for the true street tire guys. now at least they have a fighting chance. what should we make the tread wear limit? I know STU considers street tires 140 or higher, but I know that it is still not fair for the guys or stock style rocks. I odnt remember off hand. did we make two classes for street tires? like say stock 8" wheel with 280 tread wear or higher, and the a second one for the performance street tire guys? ( I will ook in a sec.)

speeddemon32

because I dont know where you guys placed?????? I need times. I only remember the first 5.

I think it was

Jason M
Jason I
Casey
Jennifer
Keith
Erica
Cesar
Michelle
.... I really dont remember the rest, there were 11 cars. everyone gets points this time.

speeddemon32

oh no we didnt.... should we refine that a little? the performance tires are nice, but nothing like the 245 Race tires.... or should we keep it simple?


also to help confuse everyone.
Cesar ran on trtue street tires. he ran a 65.xxx with out next years index, he would have gotten a high 61. still far away from us. is this because we should adjust the index a little more, or because he ran slower then he should. (I just dont see him picking up 3 more seconds out there)

comments???

mp5

Sssh, I thought we were gonna keep it a secret... how I planned all along to hold on to 2nd place by using his car.

I'm counting on you to get the 20 pts next event to make it easier for me.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

Haven't been on this thread in months but I gotta say....NICE pics Loren!! Looks like you guys are still tearing it up around the track. I'm definitely going to have to head out to one of these soon...even if it's just to keep Loren company and take pics.

mp5

I talked to Keith a little yesterday about the index thing. I thought the proposed numbers might be a bit harsh, and maybe we should do something like spot the stock guys 0.5 or 0.75 seconds. I would also be in favor of making it a constant time amount, instead of a multiplier, so we don't have to bust out calculators to see who won.

SnowFl8k

Bull - you should run! gh0st finally made it out to run yesterday and did really well. gh0st and cesar need some company on street tires

SnowFl8k

Come on Jason! you ruin all my fun - taking calculators away

speeddemon32

thats not a bad idea at all! but it be more then those numbers.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

I would keep the stock street tire guys in line with the Cal Club and SCCA ST rules of 140 tread-wear. This way a guy can run the SK class at a local event and not have to have rocks that kill him in that class just so he gets a better RX8cup result. While a few guys will show up from time to time on real rocks in most cases anyone that is going to run the series and wants to stick with the street tire index class is going to upgrade to a better street tire. Also the tread wear thing is a joke, the Feds do not enforce or police this number, it is done on the honor system and the tire company can put on anything they want. The guys at Kumho told me the old Kumho Victoracer tire, tread-wear 60, could have been passed off as a 140 tire easy. The Falken 615 tire is the choice of most of the ST guys that don't want to spend big $$$$ for Yok Advans, they have shown to be as fast as the Advan on many cars and have a 200 tread-wear. Also one of the Kumho factory guys that runs STS ran the Ecsta SPT, instead of his usually Kumho MX, at natls on his Civic and was 4th. The Kumho the SPT has performed better in some cases than the MX even tough it is harder just due to better construction.

Cesar did run on street tires but with his mods he would be on the STU/BS index next season. A set of 255 or 245-40-18 Falken 615s would speed him up if he does not want to get another set of wheels and R tires.

mp5

Just to clarify, those numbers were from BS to BSP (on race tires). For street tires, I would give at least 2 secs. If you want the numbers to be higher, be my guest.

I think we still need to get an objective comparison of the cars potentials. Like have Isley run his car and one of your cars on the same course and see where they stack up.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

I have no problem softening up the numbers a bit, although they are already softer than PAX. I do think it needs to be a multiplier for sure. Most Fontana events are under 60 secs while an event at Eltoro can have 80+ sec long runs, so a fixed number would not work out as well.

I will crunch some numbers and try to make BS harder compared to BSP and street tires.

speeddemon32

oh ok, I thought you ment the street tire guys get .75 seconds.



well we have a little biut of time to decide the fate of the 2007 points system. but not much.

and your right about that Isley, anyone that wants to run for RX-8 cup points will likley be on better tires then the rocks the car comes with. and your right, he does have many other mods that would have screwed him in most classes putting him in STU anyways. I didnt think about that. AND he does have 245's now.

point taken.

speeddemon32

I dont want it toooo easy for us. it is only fair that with our big ol tires, and other mods, you guys get the credit you deserve. lets just make the multiplyer something that is fair for all. that's all I ask.

speeddemon32

Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. is combining its Dunlop Signature and new Dunlop SP Sport Signature tires to establish a new Signature powerline.
The SP Sport Signature will be rolled out in early 2007, Brent Strandberg, channel marketing manager, Dunlop consumer tires, told moderntiredealer.com at this week's SEMA (Specialty Equipment Market Association) Show in Las Vegas. Nev.

When finished, the new Dunlop Signature powerline will range in size from 14 inches to 20 inches.

Also new in the Dunlop brand is the Direzza Z1, a tire for road racing, autocross and other competitive applications. "We'll bring in 17 different sizes, some 15-inch sizes, some 16-inch sizes but predominantly 17 and 18 inches."

It will be available this spring.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

My old index proposal:
I am thinking the index should work out along these lines based on a 60 sec course:
stock on street tires 60 sec X .95 index = 57.0
BS/STU 58.2 sec X .98 index = 57.0
BSP/SM 57.0 sec

With the old system a Stock class ST guy was 1.8 behind BS and a BS/STU car was 1.2 behind BSP/SM on a 60 sec course.

Maybe we should break this out a little more so as to not be so harsh to the guy with street tires and cross-drilled rotors, STU car, as well as maybe plan ahead for a real SM car.

Street Mod 1.00, strait time.
BSP .99
BS .975
STU .97
BS street tire .94

SM-60 sec
BSP- 60.7 X .99=60
BS- 61.55 X .975=60
STU- 61.85 X .97=60
BSST- 63.85 X .94=60

This puts a BSP car .7 behind a SM car. A BS car is .8 behind a BSP car. An STU car is .3 behind a BS car. A BSST car is 2.3 behind a BS car. So we cut the BSP-BS gap by .4 from the old index. Gave the BS-BSST .5 more and gave the STU guy a .3 break off of BS.

For our purposes we can call a SM car any RX8 with forced induction or interior removed and all BSP allowed mods are ok. That way a BSP car with a body kit and wing can still be in "BSP". A BS street tire car is any car with BS class mods and street tires of 140 tread-wear or higher. An STU car can be any car beyond BS specs, even allow BSP mods, and runs on 140 tread-wear or higher.

kwescott

this is what I would suggest:

SM-60 sec
BSP- 60.7 X .99=60
BS- 61.55 X .975=60
STU- X .955
BSST- 63.85 X .94=60

In looking at the difference between BS w/R-compounds and BSP w/R's...is .15...so lets do the same with STU and BS w/street tires.....94 plus .15 equals 95.5

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

No way I would go for that number for STU.... Most of the speed from an STU/BSP car comes from the suspension and other parts, you know all the stuff you never did before you gave up on STU. Take your car as it is and only change to 275-35-18 Falken 615s and I think I can beat my car heads up easy.

Now I have to get into why Rick Ruth's PAX factors, the ones some SCCA clubs use, are a joke. The Pax numbers used by cal club are not a product of SCCA, Rick Ruth makes them up on his own based off of random events around the country. SCCA has nothing to do with these numbers, it is just one persons opinion of how fast cars should be. I guess because no one else wants to take it on most clubs just use his system.

With that said look at all other ST classes in SCCA and you can get an idea of what I am saying here. First look at STS. The hot car in STS is a Civic Si, which is in H Stock. Look at the times for these cars at natls events and STS Civics on street tires are faster than HS Civics with race tires. STX is dominated by the Subi WRX which is a mid pack D Stock car. An STX WRX beats the fast DS cars at natl events.
So you are going to try to tell me that STU cars should be able to go slower than BS cars while the PAX factors and raw times of STS/STX cars beat HS/DS.
HS .780-STS .797
DS .798-STX .804
BS .822-STU .820
I have to wonder how a Civic and WRX find so much speed when they give up R tires but an RX8 gets slow.....

Does the fact that some of the STU cars are beating you in your BSP car escape you?

btw the only reason the difference between BS and BSP is .15 is we are giving you a break.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

That .955 comes out to a 62.85, only 1 sec faster than a stock car street tire car, way to soft.

It kills me to do it but how about a .965 for STU. That would be a 62.16X.965=60. So that would put STU .6 behind BS and 1.7 ahead of BSST.

mp5

I agree with everything except this...

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Just for reference here are the 2006 and 2007 Pax numbers:

these are based off of an AM car running a 60.

SM 2006 .845=50.700 SM 2007 .856=51.360
BSP 2006 .843=50.580 BSP 2007 .853=51.180
BS 2006 .822=49.320 BS 2007 .828=49.680
STU 2006 .820=49.200 STU 2007 .821=49.260

So with the 2006 Pax SM was .2 faster than BSP. BSP was 1.2 faster than BS. BS was .1 faster than STU.

For 2007 Pax SM is still .2 ahead of BSP. BSP is now 1.5 faster than BS. BS if now .4 faster than STU.

Just some more fuel... for 2007 an STX WRX has to beat a DS car on R tires by .2. An STS Civic has to beat an HS Civic by about 1 second. But sure what they hell an STU car should be slower than a CS Miata.

kwescott

I'm wondering....now granted, I never raced on good street tires...I was on the stock tires....but have either Jason's raced....in competition, with the RX8 on street tires (of any kind other than the V700's)?

I know that you said we would gain 3 seconds by switching to 245 R's....but I gained way more than that over the stock street tires I was using....gained another 1.5 with the upgrade to 285's...so, is it reasonable to assume that I now have a 3-4.5 second advantage over a street-tire equipped car...? (just asking cause I know how close Cesar, Casey and I were when we did practice events on the street tires together....we were all within 1.0-1.5 seconds)....

I know I can predict Ulllose's times before he evens runs. I know he will be 1.5-2.0 seconds faster than me on my first run....I usually catch up from there...but the initial gap is usually the same. When I saw BS 8's run this weekend..I told them they could expect to see you in the 59's....Ken reacted in shock to think that R's would give you 7 seconds over him. (we all know it is more than just the setup...it is driver skill/experience as well)....