stiff stuff
11-20-2008, 08:49 PM
#1
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stiff stuff
when i come back from in iraq in a year and a half, i will be dropping about 20 grand on my 8 on making it as close to a track car as possible, but still barely street legal (its gonna be epic). I love the stiff ride that coilovers give my car (currently have tein basics) and they arent cutting it. i am looking for the stiffest ride available. any suggestions on coilovers.
also on a different subject, how do you think my enkei RPF1 rims with Toyo T1R's will handle a colorado winter? should i take them off when it snows and put my stock rims with low tread Blizzack tires on?
so far it has been nice here. i hope not to jynx it.
thanks.
also on a different subject, how do you think my enkei RPF1 rims with Toyo T1R's will handle a colorado winter? should i take them off when it snows and put my stock rims with low tread Blizzack tires on?
so far it has been nice here. i hope not to jynx it.
thanks.
Last edited by cheeto; 11-20-2008 at 08:58 PM.
11-21-2008, 08:45 PM
#6
for your own safety, yes
You don't need to drop 20 grand to make it nearly a track car. You should actually spend as little as possible on the car and as much as possible on seat time.
Wheels/tires, ~$1500-2000
brake pads/lines/fluid ~$350- $500
sway bars ~$300-400
end links ~ $250
ducting/cooling ~$1000-2000
seat, harness, roll bar $4000
performance alignment ~$100
You are under $10,000 and you will be years away from having the skill to outdirve the car you just put together.
you don't need to buy an entirely new set of coilovers. as long as the shocks are still good you can just replace the springs with a stiffer set. It's a simple swap for ~$100 parts & labor/tools if DIY. But you should look into spring rates and find something that works for your purposes. I really thing the Tein Basics are sprung pretty well for what you want to do. If you go really stiff and you are on street tires you will very quickly run out of traction prematurely. As low torque as this car is you need a light spring in the rear to be able to easily transfer weight to the back end and keep it planted when it gets loose. Ideally, on street tires with stock power, I think I would run ~350-400llb springs on the front and ~200lb springs in the rear. Only way I would go higher would be running R-comps. And I would go much lower on any type of street car.
Last edited by mac11; 11-21-2008 at 08:48 PM.
11-21-2008, 10:07 PM
#7
justjim
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Sorry to burst your bubble but stiff does not equal good handling. While improving handling is a multifaceted goal, the general rule of thumb is softer equals better traction. Sure, if you're on a completely even surface, with a homogenous track surface, a stiffer suspension might give you a higher lateral G simply due to less roll, but you could gain the same thing with increasing roll stiffnes with anti-roll bars without stiffening the suspension except in roll. Tuning a suspension involves controlling the suspension under a variety of situations and surfaces, none of which will be a completly smooth and homogenous track surface. Read up a bit and you will find that you need to address specific issues. Tuning a suspension for an autocross will be different than tuning for a road course and compromises will need to be made if the car will see the street. My general order of improvement would be:
1. Driver- takes some lessons, do an HPDE with instruction, read a book, etc.
2. Out of spec alignment (increase the negative camber).
2. Tires and wheels.
3. Dampeners (shocks).
4. Anti-roll bars (anti-sway bars)
5. Springs- keep them as soft as possible without bottoming out the suspension, control roll with anti-roll bars, and control oscillations with dampeners.
1. Driver- takes some lessons, do an HPDE with instruction, read a book, etc.
2. Out of spec alignment (increase the negative camber).
2. Tires and wheels.
3. Dampeners (shocks).
4. Anti-roll bars (anti-sway bars)
5. Springs- keep them as soft as possible without bottoming out the suspension, control roll with anti-roll bars, and control oscillations with dampeners.
11-22-2008, 02:07 AM
#8
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Sorry to burst your bubble but stiff does not equal good handling. While improving handling is a multifaceted goal, the general rule of thumb is softer equals better traction. Sure, if you're on a completely even surface, with a homogenous track surface, a stiffer suspension might give you a higher lateral G simply due to less roll, but you could gain the same thing with increasing roll stiffnes with anti-roll bars without stiffening the suspension except in roll. Tuning a suspension involves controlling the suspension under a variety of situations and surfaces, none of which will be a completly smooth and homogenous track surface. Read up a bit and you will find that you need to address specific issues. Tuning a suspension for an autocross will be different than tuning for a road course and compromises will need to be made if the car will see the street. My general order of improvement would be:
1. Driver- takes some lessons, do an HPDE with instruction, read a book, etc.
2. Out of spec alignment (increase the negative camber).
2. Tires and wheels.
3. Dampeners (shocks).
4. Anti-roll bars (anti-sway bars)
5. Springs- keep them as soft as possible without bottoming out the suspension, control roll with anti-roll bars, and control oscillations with dampeners.
1. Driver- takes some lessons, do an HPDE with instruction, read a book, etc.
2. Out of spec alignment (increase the negative camber).
2. Tires and wheels.
3. Dampeners (shocks).
4. Anti-roll bars (anti-sway bars)
5. Springs- keep them as soft as possible without bottoming out the suspension, control roll with anti-roll bars, and control oscillations with dampeners.
11-22-2008, 02:14 PM
#9
has money, but unsure
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no. i will be living in the barracks for at least 3 years. and BAH would pay for a house if i were to get married and get one.
The first thing i planed on doing is getting involved with the track events in denver and colorado springs area and going to them as much as work will allow me, and maybe organize more. But the springs idea is great. i will have to see about that.
But i will be going turbo, so it will be more than 10 grand. i have no problem spending that much money.
i will have nothing better to do than read when im over in iraq, so dont worry about that.
poorly.
for your own safety, yes
You don't need to drop 20 grand to make it nearly a track car. You should actually spend as little as possible on the car and as much as possible on seat time.
Wheels/tires, ~$1500-2000
brake pads/lines/fluid ~$350- $500
sway bars ~$300-400
end links ~ $250
ducting/cooling ~$1000-2000
seat, harness, roll bar $4000
performance alignment ~$100
You are under $10,000 and you will be years away from having the skill to outdirve the car you just put together.
you don't need to buy an entirely new set of coilovers. as long as the shocks are still good you can just replace the springs with a stiffer set. It's a simple swap for ~$100 parts & labor/tools if DIY. But you should look into spring rates and find something that works for your purposes. I really thing the Tein Basics are sprung pretty well for what you want to do. If you go really stiff and you are on street tires you will very quickly run out of traction prematurely. As low torque as this car is you need a light spring in the rear to be able to easily transfer weight to the back end and keep it planted when it gets loose. Ideally, on street tires with stock power, I think I would run ~350-400llb springs on the front and ~200lb springs in the rear. Only way I would go higher would be running R-comps. And I would go much lower on any type of street car.
for your own safety, yes
You don't need to drop 20 grand to make it nearly a track car. You should actually spend as little as possible on the car and as much as possible on seat time.
Wheels/tires, ~$1500-2000
brake pads/lines/fluid ~$350- $500
sway bars ~$300-400
end links ~ $250
ducting/cooling ~$1000-2000
seat, harness, roll bar $4000
performance alignment ~$100
You are under $10,000 and you will be years away from having the skill to outdirve the car you just put together.
you don't need to buy an entirely new set of coilovers. as long as the shocks are still good you can just replace the springs with a stiffer set. It's a simple swap for ~$100 parts & labor/tools if DIY. But you should look into spring rates and find something that works for your purposes. I really thing the Tein Basics are sprung pretty well for what you want to do. If you go really stiff and you are on street tires you will very quickly run out of traction prematurely. As low torque as this car is you need a light spring in the rear to be able to easily transfer weight to the back end and keep it planted when it gets loose. Ideally, on street tires with stock power, I think I would run ~350-400llb springs on the front and ~200lb springs in the rear. Only way I would go higher would be running R-comps. And I would go much lower on any type of street car.
But i will be going turbo, so it will be more than 10 grand. i have no problem spending that much money.
Sorry to burst your bubble but stiff does not equal good handling. While improving handling is a multifaceted goal, the general rule of thumb is softer equals better traction. Sure, if you're on a completely even surface, with a homogenous track surface, a stiffer suspension might give you a higher lateral G simply due to less roll, but you could gain the same thing with increasing roll stiffnes with anti-roll bars without stiffening the suspension except in roll. Tuning a suspension involves controlling the suspension under a variety of situations and surfaces, none of which will be a completly smooth and homogenous track surface. Read up a bit and you will find that you need to address specific issues. Tuning a suspension for an autocross will be different than tuning for a road course and compromises will need to be made if the car will see the street. My general order of improvement would be:
1. Driver- takes some lessons, do an HPDE with instruction, read a book, etc.
2. Out of spec alignment (increase the negative camber).
2. Tires and wheels.
3. Dampeners (shocks).
4. Anti-roll bars (anti-sway bars)
5. Springs- keep them as soft as possible without bottoming out the suspension, control roll with anti-roll bars, and control oscillations with dampeners.
1. Driver- takes some lessons, do an HPDE with instruction, read a book, etc.
2. Out of spec alignment (increase the negative camber).
2. Tires and wheels.
3. Dampeners (shocks).
4. Anti-roll bars (anti-sway bars)
5. Springs- keep them as soft as possible without bottoming out the suspension, control roll with anti-roll bars, and control oscillations with dampeners.
i will have nothing better to do than read when im over in iraq, so dont worry about that.
11-22-2008, 02:17 PM
#10
I recommnd spending your first 5grand on a miata, a roll hoop and some driving lessons.
11-22-2008, 02:20 PM
#11
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Judging by the way you write you have little to no track experience and zero with the rx8. Which means you can't drive with the power you have. You get in a much more powerful car on track learning to control the car you are asking for trouble.
I recommnd spending your first 5grand on a miata, a roll hoop and some driving lessons.
I recommnd spending your first 5grand on a miata, a roll hoop and some driving lessons.
i have raced twice at miller park in the parking lots with SCCA. beat 2 evo's and 3 Sti's by an average of 3 seconds on a 61 second track. that was in stock form in october 2007
Last edited by cheeto; 11-22-2008 at 02:22 PM.
11-22-2008, 02:28 PM
#12
No, skip barber is basically for open wheel and competition training. You need much experience before you get to that level. There automotive progrmas look to be setup to street driving awareness or grooming one towards their open wheel racing. and it's god awfully expensive to start out there.
http://www.skipbarber.com/driving_sc...ew_driver.aspx
For those kind of prices you can do 2 NASA weekends including the price of admission, gas and food generally.
Check out NASA. www.nasaproracing.com
You get an in car instructor for the cost of weekends track time and they start you out slowly. Teach you the basics that you need to know to keep yourself out of trouble. They do a really good job and they will work you all the way up to wheel to wheel racing if you want to take it that far. Pretty fine racing orginization.
Also check out www.trackpedia.com to find tracks in your area and then find out the car clubs and associations that rent them out.
Try to keep in mind just how dangerous this **** really is before you go running a high horsepower car out there your first time ever on track. All it takes its 1 mistake to ball that car up and potentially kill someone else on the track with you.
I'm not at all trying to discourage you, I go out there all the time. Just would like to see you do it safe and right.
Shiney side up.
Mac
http://www.skipbarber.com/driving_sc...ew_driver.aspx
For those kind of prices you can do 2 NASA weekends including the price of admission, gas and food generally.
Check out NASA. www.nasaproracing.com
You get an in car instructor for the cost of weekends track time and they start you out slowly. Teach you the basics that you need to know to keep yourself out of trouble. They do a really good job and they will work you all the way up to wheel to wheel racing if you want to take it that far. Pretty fine racing orginization.
Also check out www.trackpedia.com to find tracks in your area and then find out the car clubs and associations that rent them out.
Try to keep in mind just how dangerous this **** really is before you go running a high horsepower car out there your first time ever on track. All it takes its 1 mistake to ball that car up and potentially kill someone else on the track with you.
I'm not at all trying to discourage you, I go out there all the time. Just would like to see you do it safe and right.
Shiney side up.
Mac
Last edited by mac11; 11-22-2008 at 02:35 PM.
11-22-2008, 02:40 PM
#14
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No, skip barber is basically for open wheel and competition training. You need much experience before you get to that level. There automotive progrmas look to be setup to street driving awareness or grooming one towards their open wheel racing. and it's god awfully expensive to start out there.
http://www.skipbarber.com/driving_sc...ew_driver.aspx
For those kind of prices you can do 2 NASA weekends including the price of admission, gas and food generally.
Check out NASA. www.nasaproracing.com
You get an in car instructor for the cost of weekends track time and they start you out slowly. Teach you the basics that you need to know to keep yourself out of trouble. They do a really good job and they will work you all the way up to wheel to wheel racing if you want to take it that far. Pretty fine racing orginization.
Also check out www.trackpedia.com to find tracks in your area and then find out the car clubs and associations that rent them out.
Try to keep in mind just how dangerous this **** really is before you go running a high horsepower car out there your first time ever on track. All it takes its 1 mistake to ball that car up and potentially kill someone else on the track with you.
I'm not at all trying to discourage you, I go out there all the time. Just would like to see you do it safe and right.
Shiney side up.
Mac
http://www.skipbarber.com/driving_sc...ew_driver.aspx
For those kind of prices you can do 2 NASA weekends including the price of admission, gas and food generally.
Check out NASA. www.nasaproracing.com
You get an in car instructor for the cost of weekends track time and they start you out slowly. Teach you the basics that you need to know to keep yourself out of trouble. They do a really good job and they will work you all the way up to wheel to wheel racing if you want to take it that far. Pretty fine racing orginization.
Also check out www.trackpedia.com to find tracks in your area and then find out the car clubs and associations that rent them out.
Try to keep in mind just how dangerous this **** really is before you go running a high horsepower car out there your first time ever on track. All it takes its 1 mistake to ball that car up and potentially kill someone else on the track with you.
I'm not at all trying to discourage you, I go out there all the time. Just would like to see you do it safe and right.
Shiney side up.
Mac
I like nasa alot better than SCCA because with SCCA they place you way different and NASA places cars based on a points system rather than the mods they have.
i will be going as far as i can in the racing world which would include wheel to wheel.
i do know how dangerous it is, as my first run i spun out. shook me up a little.
there are a few tracks around here. i will just have to find which one's have the nasa training on them.
11-22-2008, 02:44 PM
#15
As al said, it's completely different. The speeds go up, the stakes go up. Take it slow, check the ego and listen to an instructor. At NASA events they are generally volunteers that are currently racing with the orginization and providing a service to the novice drivers at the track. They are not gaining any fame or fortune by being an instructor. They are there for your benefit.
11-22-2008, 02:46 PM
#16
Now you are talking about time trials and competition. When you first start out you will be in HPDE until you prove your skills. In which case they place your by your track experience. You will be out there in group 1 with some guys in vettes and some guys in 90's 1.6L civics. To begin the focus is on driver training - where it should be.
11-22-2008, 02:48 PM
#17
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You don't know what kind of blue haird old ladys were driving those cars. That doesn't make you the stig.
As al said, it's completely different. The speeds go up, the stakes go up. Take it slow, check the ego and listen to an instructor. At NASA events they are generally volunteers that are currently racing with the orginization and providing a service to the novice drivers at the track. They are not gaining any fame or fortune by being an instructor. They are there for your benefit.
As al said, it's completely different. The speeds go up, the stakes go up. Take it slow, check the ego and listen to an instructor. At NASA events they are generally volunteers that are currently racing with the orginization and providing a service to the novice drivers at the track. They are not gaining any fame or fortune by being an instructor. They are there for your benefit.
11-25-2008, 08:36 PM
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they dont use salt in colorado. only sand, and everyone said that last year it was only really cold and barely snowed and it was supposed to be like that this year (knock on wood) and my stock's have really low tread on them. they are down to the little traction bars
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