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Brake FAQ

Old 03-12-2009, 11:24 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by wildcatplano View Post
I recently went to have my brakes checked and the manager stated I needed new rotors. Six months ago I had my brakes checked and was told my pads were fine with 60% pads still left. Less than six months go by and less than 5000 miles later I need new rotors. Not only that but I was to be charged $800 becuse I had a sport tuned suspension and needed special "KUKI" rotors. I thought this was stanrge when I went to the dealer and he said my rotors were fine I just needed new pads and they needed to be machined. Again, another $500 . Is this accurate or is someone about to make some money off me. Not a total mechanical idiot but I do realize when people are trying to bend me over. Any opinion would be greatly appreciated.
Can't say for certain, I wasn't there and didn't examine your car, but from your description it sounds like you were hosed a bit. The only time you need new rotors is if they are below the minimum thickness (and it takes quite a few miles or some heavy track time to do that, I posted the minimum thicknesses in post #8) or you have let the pads wear down to the backing plate and you have seriously scored the rotor face. Even then it could probably be machined. New OEM type blank rotors aren't that expensive. There is nothing special about the RX8 rotors or the sport suspension other than that they are bigger than the base model. I've never heard of Kuki rotors, I think the service manager was kookie! Even if you did need front rotors on a high mileage RX8 it is likely that the rears would still be OK. A lot of shops will sell you new rotors because they can, just like the oil change shops that want to sell you an engine flush or whatever. No way to tell in hindsight about the pads. One thing about pads is that when you have 50% thickness left you don't have 50% life left. The wear rate increases as the pads get thinner.

Last edited by justjim; 03-12-2009 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:29 AM
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I bought the car at 25,000 just now reached 31,000 . I thought the estimate was a bit expensive especially since when I went to the Dealership they said I have 10% left on my pads and would just need my rotors machined. The pads you say I can use are standard OEM pads. Is it accurate to be charged almost $400 (for standard OEM pads) just for two new front pads only. I also get excessive amounts of brake dust from the pads and seems like I am cleaning them everyweek (not necessarily a bad thing). Is that normal or should I look for specific pads to solve that prob.

Last edited by wildcatplano; 03-13-2009 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:48 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by wildcatplano View Post
I bought the car at 25,000 just now reached 31,000 . I thought the estimate was a bit expensive especially since when I went to the Dealership they said I have 10% left on my pads and would just need my rotors machined. The pads you say I can use are standard OEM pads. Is it accurate to be charged almost $400 (for standard OEM pads) just for two new front pads only. I also get excessive amounts of brake dust from the pads and seems like I am cleaning them everyweek (not necessarily a bad thing). Is that normal or should I look for specific pads to solve that prob.
I'm surprised that a car with that low mileage only has 10% pads left. Maybe the prior owner was riding the brakes all the time or is it an automatic which may wear faster. I don't know the exact going rate for OEM pads but I would guess they are about $150 a pair. The rest of the $400 is labor, welcome to automotive maintenance. Learn to DIY if money is the object.

Brake dust is normal, how much depends on the driver and the pad. General rule of thumb is performance pads (higher temp/broader range) dust more than OEM. OEM pads for the RX8 probably dust more than the OEM pads for the Mazda 3. Some people like the Hawk ceramics for the RX8 and claim less dust, I have no experience with them so I can't comment.

I used to have very dusty performance pads on my previous FWD Acura so to me the OEM RX8 pads are pretty clean, its all relative.
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Old 03-16-2009, 08:25 PM
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Justjim,
thanks for detailed and insightful FAQ post! I have a bit of an oddball followup question, hopefully it's not too divergent from the topic:

I've bled my brakes before, and I've swapped pads before, but never did them at the same time. This next time, I'd like to do both at the same time. So the question is, is there any logic as to which order you'd do these 2 things? I wanna say it's no big deal either way...but perhaps it'd be ideal to swap pad first, then do the bleeding?

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Old 03-16-2009, 08:48 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by justjim View Post
I tried to go back and correct the brake size for the AT sport but I'm at the word size limit for a single post so I can't add to it. Good catch on the AT brake size info.

Assuming I wanted to order new rotors from racingbrake, if i ordered the 12.7 in rotor would it work fine on my AT (base...)
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:07 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by GULAMAN View Post
Justjim,
thanks for detailed and insightful FAQ post! I have a bit of an oddball followup question, hopefully it's not too divergent from the topic:

I've bled my brakes before, and I've swapped pads before, but never did them at the same time. This next time, I'd like to do both at the same time. So the question is, is there any logic as to which order you'd do these 2 things? I wanna say it's no big deal either way...but perhaps it'd be ideal to swap pad first, then do the bleeding?

GULAMAN
Ultitmately you could do it either way, but there is a reason to do the pads first. Let's say your plan is to bleed the brakes not replace all the fluid. If you install new pads you will have to push the pistons into the calipers and this will cause the fluid to rise in the master cylinder reservoir. If you have already bled the brakes you may end up wasting fluid. If you do the pads first the fluid will be near full and you won't end up adding as much fluid. Other than that its a wash either way.
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:12 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by WTBRotary! View Post
Assuming I wanted to order new rotors from racingbrake, if i ordered the 12.7 in rotor would it work fine on my AT (base...)
No it wouldn't. The base caliper pistons and the rear proportioning valve will have been sized for the smaller base rotor. Even if the larger rotors physically fit on the brackets (unsure) you will have degraded the brake bias front to rear and the car will not stop as quickly as it would have with the base rotors. You would have to replace the front rotors, front caliper, master cylinder, and rear proportioning valve and possibly the ABS unit to get it to function as the sport GT system.
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by justjim View Post
Ultitmately you could do it either way, but there is a reason to do the pads first. Let's say your plan is to bleed the brakes not replace all the fluid. If you install new pads you will have to push the pistons into the calipers and this will cause the fluid to rise in the master cylinder reservoir. If you have already bled the brakes you may end up wasting fluid. If you do the pads first the fluid will be near full and you won't end up adding as much fluid. Other than that its a wash either way.
Thanks...that was sort of my thinking as well.
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Old 03-17-2009, 01:40 AM
  #34  
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Wow base model totally got fucked over then... god damn... ugh no LSD or 18" rims, no HIDS no traction control... damn i could go on forever...



Originally Posted by justjim View Post
No it wouldn't. The base caliper pistons and the rear proportioning valve will have been sized for the smaller base rotor. Even if the larger rotors physically fit on the brackets (unsure) you will have degraded the brake bias front to rear and the car will not stop as quickly as it would have with the base rotors. You would have to replace the front rotors, front caliper, master cylinder, and rear proportioning valve and possibly the ABS unit to get it to function as the sport GT system.
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Old 03-18-2009, 08:06 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by WTBRotary! View Post
Wow base model totally got fucked over then... god damn... ugh no LSD or 18" rims, no HIDS no traction control... damn i could go on forever...
just to be clear the base model rx8 is not an automatic and comes with the LSD and 18" wheels. Just no traction control (along with other bells and whistles).
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Old 03-18-2009, 10:26 AM
  #36  
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Yeah, I may have oversimplified the RX8 models in the FAQ. Apparently you can get the larger brakes in the automatic transmission if you get the sport GT suspension. If you have the stick shift you have the larger brakes regardless of trim. Is this right? If so I will try and go back and find room to alter the original post.

Edit: Changes made

Last edited by justjim; 03-19-2009 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 03-18-2009, 10:50 AM
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This FAQ is good. The only thing I would add is that if people are looking for a straight OEM rotor replacement, the Centric rotors are a good, cost effective option. I had to search for a while before I found them.
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Old 03-26-2009, 10:09 PM
  #38  
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sticky please. i had to go digging for this. thanks!
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Old 04-01-2009, 04:32 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by RK View Post
just to be clear the base model rx8 is not an automatic and comes with the LSD and 18" wheels. Just no traction control (along with other bells and whistles).
he's speaking about the base automatic model.

Great read justjim.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:38 PM
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Justjim very well done.
I spoke with Hawk today and they advised me that the DTC 70 were not available for the 8.
I believe the available Hawk track pads for the 8 include DTC60, HT-14, HT-10, 9012 blues
I had gone thru a couple sets of the Mazdaspeed pads and like them.
I have been told by several people that the MS pads are Hawk blues.
Mazdaspeed tells me that they are sourced from Japan and are not Hawk Blues
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:32 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by darnellm View Post
Justjim very well done.
I spoke with Hawk today and they advised me that the DTC 70 were not available for the 8.
I believe the available Hawk track pads for the 8 include DTC60, HT-14, HT-10, 9012 blues
I had gone thru a couple sets of the Mazdaspeed pads and like them.
I have been told by several people that the MS pads are Hawk blues.
Mazdaspeed tells me that they are sourced from Japan and are not Hawk Blues
I edited the DTC70 to DTC60. I would be surprised if the MS pads were Hawk Blues. I have no personal experience with either one, but this is a description of Hawk Blues from the Stoptech website.
The venerable Hawk Blue is a race pad with the temperature range of a club race pad, very high rotor wear at cooler temperatures, and low to moderate rotor wear when warm. You can also expect a stable torque curve, good bite, and a MOT of 1,050F. It works well for track use in the front of front engined cars for less experienced drivers, but advanced drivers can overheat this pad on medium to high mass vehicles.
I know some people who only use Hawk Blues to sand off the pad deposits of other pads because of their low temperature abrasiveness. They are old technology and in my opinion there are better pads out there. 1050F is only a 100degrees higher than Axxis Ultimates and 150 degrees higher than Hawk HP Plus.

I have used the Carbotech XP10 and XP8 track pads and like them. Based on that the Carbotech AX6 might be a better choice, although I have never used them either. This is from the Carbotech website www.ctbrakes.com
The AX6™ takes the place of the Panther Plus™ compound that was so successful. AX6™ was specifically engineered for Autocross applications. A high torque brake compound delivering reliable and consistent performance over a very wide operating temperature range (150F to 1250F +). Advanced compound matrix provides an excellent initial “bite”, high coefficient of friction, and very progressive brake modulation and release characteristics. AX6™ offers high fade resistance, rotor friendliness at all temperatures, excellent cold stopping power, and non corrosive dust. As a result, AX6™ is an excellent choice for Autocross & novice track day drivers and beginner high performance driver education (HPDE) drivers on street driven cars using street tires eliminating the need to change brake pads at the track. AX6™ has gained tremendous popularity with SCCA Prosolo/Solo2 competitors for its fantastic bite, release & modulation. Many drivers use the AX6™ for street driving as well, even though Carbotech doesn’t recommend street driving with AX6™ due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise. AX6™ is NOT a race compound, and should not be used as such. AX6™ shouldn’t be used by any intermediate or advanced track day drivers, and should not be used with “R” compound tires (racing tires). Cars in excess of 300hp and/or 3,000lbs should not use AX6™ for any track use.

Last edited by justjim; 04-01-2009 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:24 AM
  #42  
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Can anybody give me the part number for Ferodo DS2500 for spurt suspention. Local Ferodo dealer claims that DS2500 are not produced for RX8.
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Old 04-16-2009, 09:21 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by SPM View Post
Can anybody give me the part number for Ferodo DS2500 for spurt suspention. Local Ferodo dealer claims that DS2500 are not produced for RX8.
I did a quick Google search and couldn't find any either. I included the DS2500 in the Brake FAQ because they were available for my previous car (Acura) I just assumed they were available for the RX8. If they turn out to be unavailable try calling Carbotech and get some Bobcats or AX6s.
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Old 04-16-2009, 09:54 AM
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good read
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Old 04-16-2009, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by justjim View Post
I did a quick Google search and couldn't find any either. I included the DS2500 in the Brake FAQ because they were available for my previous car (Acura) I just assumed they were available for the RX8. If they turn out to be unavailable try calling Carbotech and get some Bobcats or AX6s.
I assume ds2500 are not availavle for us. will go with the HP+. Thanks.
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Old 04-16-2009, 12:51 PM
  #46  
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Very good read man. Thanks for this. It's funny because I'm planning to upgrade my brakes come May, but this gives me a better insight as to what I should do. Thanks again.
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Old 04-18-2009, 09:56 PM
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Hey Jim you can utilize your post below your OP to split up the OP into two sections so you can write more and not be word count limited
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Old 04-19-2009, 06:22 PM
  #48  
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Hey Jim, what about the Axxis do you like better then the Hawk HP Plus? I'm just on the fence about if I should be getting the Plus's or the Axxis Ultimates. I have Hawk HPS right now and my car stops great on the course but not as hard and quick as I'd like. I'd like to brake a little later and quicker. upgrading to stainless steel lines and going to flush the whole system, but still running stock rotors that are in great shape. Lemme know what you think!
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:47 PM
  #49  
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Well I've only used the Axxis Ultimates on my previous car, a FWD Acura that was more braking challenged than my RX8 and they performed well but were dusty. I use the OEM pads for my RX8 on the street and switch to Cobalt XR2/XR5 track pads at Sebring. I've never used the Hawp HP plus but alot of people do with good results. Their max temp is comparable to the Axxis Ultimates, maybe 50F less, and they dust alot also so its probably a toss up. Compare prices and go from there, and be prepared to clean your wheels.

Edit:
You might also check out Carbotech brakes at http://ctbrakes.com/brake-compounds.html the phone number to order is on the webpage. Take a look at the AX6, I've had good results with the Carbotech track pads in the past.

Last edited by justjim; 04-20-2009 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:56 PM
  #50  
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Thats good to know. Thanks a lot for the recommendation Jim. :D
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