MEGAREDS

This summer... on my list of things to learn to do.

Rotary Titus

so once you jacked up the car, where are you supposed to put the jack stands? can't put them where you got the jack cause it's still in the way?

MEGAREDS

The cut out on the frame rim seems long enogh to accomodate both the tire jack and the jack stand, maybe, but I never found out because...

the two-ton jack I bought won't elevate the car high enough to clear the jack stands. That was problem one. Problem two is that the key that came with my winter wheels isn't really tight (as I mentioned) and I can't break the lugs free because the wrench isn't tight on them. DOh! Tomorrow's project... return the jack stands to Sears and stop by the tire dealership to figure out what to do about the key... I suspect they're going to tell me to contact Tire Rack and get a better wheel key. Doh!

The good news... nothing broken so far.

Oranje

Good idea or bad?

Buy another jack like the one in trunk, set them both in place on the recommended jack points, and jack up one side to rotate the tires.

How much could another mazda rx8 jack cost? Buy 3 and jack up the whole rig?

Apologies for the dumb questions. I've never been much of a garage DIY'er.

Cheers,
Oranje

DemonRX-8

Because scissor jacks are a PITA! And floor jacks can be bought relatively cheaply.

A few notes on jacking the car up from my experience:

I NEVER support the entire car up on four stands. Way too unstable for my liking. If I need to lift the whole car I use ramps on at least one end. If I'm rotating, I lift one side up at a time.

I never get under the car while it's supported only by a hydraulic floor jack. I'll slide a jack stand under the car even if I only keep it on the jack.

I don't jack one end of the car using the center jack points after having my Probe slip off both the front and rear while pumping the jack. It also fell over with the rear end fully jacked up and the left rear wheel did not have lug nuts on it yet. Luckily no damage (that I can detect) but it didn't look pretty with my nice 17" Enkei wheel wedged up under the car at a precarious angle.

Final note: it never hurts to be overly careful when jacking your car up. It can hurt very much if you're not. Don't put yourself up for a Darwin award!

MEGAREDS

Here's what I learned yesterday. Please, don't make fun... just snicker and move on.

The headline: Summer Wheels Are Back On!

The Long Story, Including Ten Basic Lessons Learned

The real problem was the warped "key" that came with my winter wheels. The installer used an air gun and ripped the inside of it up badly so that it didn't fit tightly any more. Lesson One: don't let anyone air gun your wheels.

Once I figured that my "key" was bad, I contacted Tire Rack about getting another one. (They work Saturday in South Bend... Thanks Jim!) Turns out that my"key" wasn't anything special at all, just a 17mm, 6 sided, 1/2" extended socket. Through an unusually long process of driving back and fourth to Sears, I discovered that any of these four socket characteristics can screw your Saturday tire-changing plans up big time. The insides can be 12-sided or six-sided, there are gobs of different socket sizes (both in mm and in inches - and the fit needs to be perfect for the torque wrench to work), then there are short and long sockets which can affect your ability to get at the lugs, and then there are at least four types of sockets connector-head sizes. That's Lesson Two: know your wheel lug socket requirements.

Since the torque wrench and breaker bar I bought on Thursday were of the 1/2" variety, I ended up trying to find 1/2" sockets (all of my other sockets were 3/8"). Then I found that I couldn't locate 17mm sockets with 1/2" heads at Sears or Home Depot. Finally, someone at Home Depot sent me to an automotive store (NAPA) and there I found lots and lots of appropriate sockets, but none in stock that were 17mm. They only had short sockets in the 17mm size, which just barely cleared the lug. Finding this socket took the better part of the morning. Lesson Three: hardware stores are not good places to get tools for the car. NAPA was great (even though they didn't have exactly what I needed - it was clearly where I should have gone first).

Fourth Lesson: I really needed the breaker bar. I'm sure I could never have gotten the winter wheels off without it. See Lesson One regarding the air gun, above. Breaker bar... worth buying.

Moving on... With my 1/2", 17mm, short, six-sided socket ready to go, I set out to jack up the car. I discovered why the jack stands are so important. When lowering the car with the cheap floor jack I bought, the car drops... quickly. It is very scary. When there is a wheel and tire on the axel, the drop is no big deal, but dropping the car onto the stand requires some nerve. You don't want to jack the car way up, then lower it onto a steel jack stand that's more than 1/4" under the frame. If the jack ever failed and the car had no jack stand under it, it would be very bad. Maybe there is a way to reverse my floor jack to "jack it down" or maybe my cheap one only goes in one direction, but it's a concern. I handled the problem by making very sure I never jacked much higher than strictly necessary. (I'm sure using the jack stand in the center of the axel would be better, but it's just not going to happen in my garage with such a cheap floor jack). Lesson Five: Be careful lowering the car!

Lesson Six: some winter wheels require centering rings. These are small plastic pieces that fit on the back of the wheel and make the fit to the RX-8 axel snug. One of my centering rings came off my winter wheel and remained on the car. When I tried to put the OEM wheel back on the axel over the centering ring the wheel wouldn't fit. When I saw the plastic piece on the axel I remembered my invoice for my winter wheels said I had received "centering rings." Sure enough, when I removed the plastic ring and put it back on the winter wheel, the OEM went on snuggly. Note to self: "centering rings" - easy to break or lose, apparently important for the winter wheels to go on right. Be careful.

Ok, carrying on... torque wrenches. What a pleasure to use. Easy to set up, made the lugs nice and tight and stopped tightening when the desired torque (108 ft.-lbs. - per the latest TSB) was reached. Lesson Seven: Nice tools are sah-weet.

Next thing learned... Lesson Eight: alloy wheels are SOFT. On one turn of the breaker bar (which I used only to start the lugs, not to tighten them) I rubbed the wheel with the bar, and it scratched, ever so slightly, but I learned my lesson. I also realize that you DON'T want to ever rub a curb with these wheels.

So far, so good. However, the front wheels just spun and spun while I was trying to remove the lugs on them. Of course, me so dumb. This is a rear-wheel drive car and the front wheels pretty much just spin and turn. Start again... lower car, break lugs free, raise car. Lesson Nine: Break lugs free while car is on ground, not while car is jacked up.

Next thing discovered, Lesson Ten: Not all lugs match all wheels. My OEM wheels needed 21mm sockets, so it was back to the NAPA store to buy a 1/2", 6 sided, extended 21mm socket. By the way, they close at 3 pm where I am, so don't dally... if you get there at 2:59 they will let you in, but they aren't really very excited to see you again.

Once the car had the old wheels back on and I started the car, the blinking "tire pressure warning" that had blinked all winter behind it's black electrical tape just stopped blinking. A sign from God that I had done it all correctly? I hope. All- in-all a stressful day with the car. Lots learned though, and nothing broken (a key to my mental health). Putting the winter wheels on in the fall will be so much easier. The right tools for the job and a bit of healthy respect for the jack and jack stands seems to be the key here.

G8rboy

Megareds- Great write up... best way to learn is to make some mistakes while trying. I'm not sure what your floor jack's lowering mechanism is, but if it's like mine, you can turn the slotted valve thing ever so slightly to get it to lower slowly. In the beginning I was dropping my Miata like a rock until I learned to ease it down.

G8rboy

Well, I guess my $20 floor jack got jealous and depressed over all this talk about nice floor jacks... it just committed suicide when I was finishing my caliper paint job. I had just started taking down the jackstands when it spewed hydraulic oil everywhere when lifting. I had to get the crappy sissor jack out of the trunk to finish the job... guess it's time to upgrade

ScudRunner

This might also count as a stupid question, but just what the hell is a breaker bar?

beachdog

A breaker bar is a non-ratcheting handle for socket wrenches. They're available in all of the common drive sizes. Called breaker bars because they are commonly used for extra leverage when removing stuck bolts. Even used for tightening when dealing with heavy duty hardware.

For extra leverage a steel pipe can be slid over the handle.

MEGAREDS

Craftsman 1/2" Drive Breaker Bar Review

Oranje

Pro and con of a "Breaker Bar" vs a "4-Way Lug Wrench"?

It would seem a 4-way would provide greater leverage yes?

Thanks,
Oranje

rx8cited

Depends on how long it is, no? The longer it is, the more leverage it has.

BTW, Sears does not call them breaker bars - it calls them "flex handles" in case you're searching their website.

ScudRunner

Thanks for the breaker bar info...and for explaining why I couldn't find one anywhere on anybody's web site :D

beachdog

A HIGH QUALITY 4 way lug wrench would provide more leverage because you can push and pull at the same time. BUT, I have never seen a high quality 4 way lug wrench. Most of the 4 ways are low quality and therefore don't fit the lug nuts real tight. A breaker bar with a high quality 6 sided socket will fit the lug nut tightly and transfer more torque. Safer for you and less likely to round off the lug nuts.

pauleta

I'm getting ready to put the summers on in the next week or two. I'm new to this, so any help would be appreciated.

I'm looking to get a floor jack and stands. What specs should I be looking for. Can they be to small to lift the car high enough, how can you tell? I've seen a Mack set with a 2 ton floor jack, 2 stands, 4 way lug wrench and 2 wheel chocks for $45 CAD at Walmart. Is that sufficient for the job?

I plan on getting a torque wrench. I have a 12 pt socket that fits the nuts, but it's spark plug socket. Should I get a separate socket? Is Six pt better than 12 pt? 1/2" or 3/8" is one better that the other, or just as long as it matches the wrench?

The nuts, wheel bolts and wheels should I be cleaning them and with what? Do I need to be lubricating anything during the change?

Excuse me for any stupid questions. My first time doing this and I want to get started right.

ScudRunner

As far as jack stands, anybody have a good idea what a good minimum extension is to fit under the 8 once you've got it jacked up (i.e. on the box for the stand it says extension range 13-15.5 inches). Thanks.

beachdog

IMO, I wouldn't buy tools at Walmart. Can't vouch for the Mack brand, but Walmart sells low because they buy even lower. Cheap tools break and broken tools cause injuries. Take it from someone that worked as a mechanic and wound up in the emergency room more than once. And that was using Craftsman and Snap-on.

Sears Crafstman jacks work well and are reaonably priced. Usually can get a small 2 1/4 ton floor jack with stands for $40-50. Bigger jacks are a little more but might not be low enough to get under the front crossmember. Racing jacks are going to run a few hundred.

A six point is the best to use with a torque wrench. A 12 pt doesn't transfer power as efficiently and won't provide as much accuracy.

Clean the studs if there is any crud in the threads but don't lube. that's why you're torqueing. So they're tight enough that they don't loosen on their own.

rx8cited

Craftsman only makes 6 point sockets up to 22mm, higher than that are all 12 point (I'm talking regular sockets - not xxxpensive impact tools). Any idea why no Craftsman 6 points beyond 22mm? I hope you might have some insight on this having worked as a mechanic.

beachdog

Sorry, I can't speak for Craftsman. Probably market demand and cost. I have noticed that the selection of tools at Sears has changed through the years. They used to have a huge selection of all of the traditional mechanics tools. Now they have added a lot of consumer "handy" tools like the self adjusting stuff.

Most of my sockets are around 30 years old. Too lazy to go out to the garage and check but most of my sockets except for the really huge ones (1 1/2"+) are 6 point.

rx8cited

Um, sorry, I phrased my question poorly and was not expecting you to speak for Craftsman. I was looking for an answer like, "well, for sockets larger than y, 12 point is fine because ........." . I've never seen a 12 pointed nut or bolt - so why do they make these darn 12 point sockets anyway?

bowman

I assume that you are talking about breaking the torque. I fail to see how the push/pull of the 4-way could provide more leverage than a breaker bar. All of 4-ways that I have seen (and used) are shorter than a standard lug wrench (from force to the fulcrum of the lever). And you can also put your body weight on the breaker bar if necessary.

For re-torquing the lug nuts, it would be a moot point because you should be using a torque wrench.

If I am mistaken, please correct me.

MEGAREDS

I thought the 4-way cross bar was the better choice as well because of the push/pull thing. In fact, I bought one on my first trip to the store when I realized how pathetic the small wrench provided with the RX-8 (and my other cars) is. On a subsequent trip to Sears, the salesman suggested the breaker bar, and I bought it pretty much because he seemed to know what he was talking about. Once I got the breaker bar home I was glad I had it and put my 4-way cross bar into my wife's car for emergencies. I think Bowman is right about the leverage factor. Another thing I noticed about the breaker bar is that it is easier to store. The cross bar seems heavier and definitely larger.

beachdog

IMO, cost. There is more metal in a six point than a 12 point of the same size. If you can't get the 6, then go with the 12 on your torque wrench. You might not have total accuracy on an absolute scale but it will be good enough. Properly used, you'll have consistent torque from lug to lug.

My 4 way lug wrench is truck sized. Each half is at least as long as my longest breaker bar. It would apply twice as much leverage and have the benefit of the simultaneous push and pull so it doesn't **** to an angle on the lug nut. All of it is moot however because of it's low quality. It never fit the lug nuts very accurately and is famous for causing more damage than it's worth. Which goes back to the previous comment about tool quality.

pauleta

I got a 2 1/4 jack and stands.
Jack range 5 1/2" - 15"
stands 10 5/8" - 17 1/8"
Can these do the job?

At what height should the stands be at when under the car?

The jack fits under the car. If lifting by the dif in the back, I can't have the jack coming straight back there isn't enough clearance to pump the jack. I have to angle it way to the side. Is this ok? On the front I don't think I'll have room to pump even angled.

Can I lift with a floor jack from the side points without crushing the rail? Can I put the stands on the rail without crushing it or is there a better spot for the stands under the car?

This is my first time doing this, and I'm a little paranoid about doing something wrong. Any comments would be appreciated.