Won't start when HOT
08-30-2011, 06:29 PM
#1
Won't start when HOT
Hi everyone. I have a 2004 rx-8 with some starting issues. It starts "ok" in the morning but if i drive it for more than 10 min and park it, the engine won't restart for atleast 20 min. Also i have power issues, goes like a civic now :P
Im hoping this isnt a compression issue?? I know my CAT is bad. But could this be the problem? Had a cel some time ago and mazda said it was the cat. The cel went away though.
Im thinking of ordering new NGK Iridium sparkplugs, new silicone leads and brand new OEM coils.
Im hoping this isnt a compression issue?? I know my CAT is bad. But could this be the problem? Had a cel some time ago and mazda said it was the cat. The cel went away though.
Im thinking of ordering new NGK Iridium sparkplugs, new silicone leads and brand new OEM coils.
08-30-2011, 06:37 PM
#2
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bad cat and you kept driving.
check compression
report back your results and we'll go from there.
don't just start throwing parts at it hoping to fix the issue.
check compression
report back your results and we'll go from there.
don't just start throwing parts at it hoping to fix the issue.
08-31-2011, 01:18 AM
#5
Yes i have my service records. Actually it was just serviced 1 month ago. Will a bad cat destroy the engine??
Well anyway, the dealer said it could be the "o rings" that needed replacement. He said this was a normal procedure at 70K miles.
Well anyway, the dealer said it could be the "o rings" that needed replacement. He said this was a normal procedure at 70K miles.
08-31-2011, 05:53 AM
#7
A catalytic converter (colloquially, "cat" or "catcon") is a device used to convert toxic exhaust emissions from an internal combustion engine into non-toxic substances. Inside a catalytic converter, a catalyst stimulates a chemical reaction in which noxious byproducts of combustion undergo a chemical reaction.
Anyways.. left the car at the dealer today so i will have a verdict in a week or so.
Btw. the car has never stalled and i havent had any other cel than for the CAT, but as i said, the light went of some time ago. It's a european model with 120000km(70k miles).
Ive already started looking for an engine replacement. How much would the labour cost do u think? I found a 2007 engine for 2500 dollars with 31k miles on it.
Last edited by kanie12; 08-31-2011 at 05:58 AM.
08-31-2011, 06:53 AM
#8
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Most cat failures at least start as a "clog", which restricts exhaust gas flow, building up extreme heat and placing lots of strain on the engine. Between these two, you can keep destroying other items, such as O2 sensors, engine seals, cooking the oil, etc... If you have been driving for a while on it, likely it ended up blowing out before it started a fire under your car (it's happened before!), but damage is probably already done, and low compression is one of the possible scenarios.
Most cat failures occur from running on a failing ignition without addressing it, even if it was just because you didn't notice it.
So, chances are, the list of things needing to be replaced on your car is:
- Engine ($3,000-$6,000 USD depending on source and how much you do yourself)
- Cat ($1,300-$1,400 USD, or much lower if you put a midpipe on)
- Front O2 ($150-$230 USD)
- Coils ($100-$140 USD)
- Plugs ($80 USD)
- Wires ($60 USD)
This is worst-case. Some or all may not need to be changed, but I'd bet more that the list is accurate given what you are telling me.
The only other possibility has nothing to do with the cat, and that is the fuel pump. One failure method is that it gets hot when operating and stops pumping fuel, shutting off the car, and refusing to start until it cools down. The primary difference between this no-hot-start and a low compression no-hot-start is that a fuel pump failure usually will shut the car down without warning first. A low compression typically won't cause the car to shut off suddenly. If it's bad enough to do that, it won't start when cold either, and will slowly die, not suddenly die.
Most cat failures occur from running on a failing ignition without addressing it, even if it was just because you didn't notice it.
So, chances are, the list of things needing to be replaced on your car is:
- Engine ($3,000-$6,000 USD depending on source and how much you do yourself)
- Cat ($1,300-$1,400 USD, or much lower if you put a midpipe on)
- Front O2 ($150-$230 USD)
- Coils ($100-$140 USD)
- Plugs ($80 USD)
- Wires ($60 USD)
This is worst-case. Some or all may not need to be changed, but I'd bet more that the list is accurate given what you are telling me.
The only other possibility has nothing to do with the cat, and that is the fuel pump. One failure method is that it gets hot when operating and stops pumping fuel, shutting off the car, and refusing to start until it cools down. The primary difference between this no-hot-start and a low compression no-hot-start is that a fuel pump failure usually will shut the car down without warning first. A low compression typically won't cause the car to shut off suddenly. If it's bad enough to do that, it won't start when cold either, and will slowly die, not suddenly die.
08-31-2011, 08:26 AM
#9
Most cat failures at least start as a "clog", which restricts exhaust gas flow, building up extreme heat and placing lots of strain on the engine. Between these two, you can keep destroying other items, such as O2 sensors, engine seals, cooking the oil, etc... If you have been driving for a while on it, likely it ended up blowing out before it started a fire under your car (it's happened before!), but damage is probably already done, and low compression is one of the possible scenarios.
Most cat failures occur from running on a failing ignition without addressing it, even if it was just because you didn't notice it.
So, chances are, the list of things needing to be replaced on your car is:
- Engine ($3,000-$6,000 USD depending on source and how much you do yourself)
- Cat ($1,300-$1,400 USD, or much lower if you put a midpipe on)
- Front O2 ($150-$230 USD)
- Coils ($100-$140 USD)
- Plugs ($80 USD)
- Wires ($60 USD)
This is worst-case. Some or all may not need to be changed, but I'd bet more that the list is accurate given what you are telling me.
The only other possibility has nothing to do with the cat, and that is the fuel pump. One failure method is that it gets hot when operating and stops pumping fuel, shutting off the car, and refusing to start until it cools down. The primary difference between this no-hot-start and a low compression no-hot-start is that a fuel pump failure usually will shut the car down without warning first. A low compression typically won't cause the car to shut off suddenly. If it's bad enough to do that, it won't start when cold either, and will slowly die, not suddenly die.
Most cat failures occur from running on a failing ignition without addressing it, even if it was just because you didn't notice it.
So, chances are, the list of things needing to be replaced on your car is:
- Engine ($3,000-$6,000 USD depending on source and how much you do yourself)
- Cat ($1,300-$1,400 USD, or much lower if you put a midpipe on)
- Front O2 ($150-$230 USD)
- Coils ($100-$140 USD)
- Plugs ($80 USD)
- Wires ($60 USD)
This is worst-case. Some or all may not need to be changed, but I'd bet more that the list is accurate given what you are telling me.
The only other possibility has nothing to do with the cat, and that is the fuel pump. One failure method is that it gets hot when operating and stops pumping fuel, shutting off the car, and refusing to start until it cools down. The primary difference between this no-hot-start and a low compression no-hot-start is that a fuel pump failure usually will shut the car down without warning first. A low compression typically won't cause the car to shut off suddenly. If it's bad enough to do that, it won't start when cold either, and will slowly die, not suddenly die.
Well the Mazda Tech said there is no problem running on bad cat, that the car will only pull harder. This is the message i got from them when it was serviced one month ago. They didnt change the plugs or coils though, cause i wanted BHR and NKG sparks refitted shortly after. If i knew this could destroy the engine, i would have delt with it immediatly. Its strange the CEL has gone off. Thanks for all the info! Im from Norway btw
08-31-2011, 08:28 AM
#10
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Well the Mazda Tech said there is no problem running on bad cat, that the car will only pull harder. This is the message i got from them when it was serviced one month ago. They didnt change the plugs or couls though, cause i wanted BHR and NKG sparks refitted shortly after. If i knew this could destroy the engine, i would have delt with it immediatly. Its strange the CEL has gone off. Thanks for all the info! Im from Norway btw
Many cat failures never throw a CEL at all. Mine never did. I put on a midpipe, and it still didn't for 6 weeks, then it did for 4 days, then it disappeared again.
Trusting a CEL on this car is largely a waste of time or playing with fire.
08-31-2011, 08:53 AM
#11
"Pulls harder" is only accurate if the cat has failed by the honeycomb blowing out, which DOES free up power by letting the exhaust flow freely. Same main reason going with a midpipe increases power.
Many cat failures never throw a CEL at all. Mine never did. I put on a midpipe, and it still didn't for 6 weeks, then it did for 4 days, then it disappeared again.
Trusting a CEL on this car is largely a waste of time or playing with fire.
Many cat failures never throw a CEL at all. Mine never did. I put on a midpipe, and it still didn't for 6 weeks, then it did for 4 days, then it disappeared again.
Trusting a CEL on this car is largely a waste of time or playing with fire.
But obviously i was missinformed. If they told me it could cause engine damage, i would have parked the car immedietly. Basicly i can blame Mazda and they should cover any charges.
Last edited by kanie12; 08-31-2011 at 08:58 AM.
08-31-2011, 08:57 AM
#12
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This isn't the only thing that can cause extensive damage that isn't covered by the manual.
Depending on what they actually find damaged, yes, you have a starting point for a claim against them if they told you that it didn't need to be replaced and then caused the damage.
You will need a lot of luck to actually win that claim however. I don't know Norway's law system, but in the US, it would easily just get pushed back on the customer with "we told you about it. It was up to you to fix it".
There are also enough other reasons for engine failure that unless you can prove that it's the cause, it's easy for the dealer to shift the blame for the failure to something else.
Depending on what they actually find damaged, yes, you have a starting point for a claim against them if they told you that it didn't need to be replaced and then caused the damage.
You will need a lot of luck to actually win that claim however. I don't know Norway's law system, but in the US, it would easily just get pushed back on the customer with "we told you about it. It was up to you to fix it".
There are also enough other reasons for engine failure that unless you can prove that it's the cause, it's easy for the dealer to shift the blame for the failure to something else.
08-31-2011, 09:22 AM
#13
This isn't the only thing that can cause extensive damage that isn't covered by the manual.
Depending on what they actually find damaged, yes, you have a starting point for a claim against them if they told you that it didn't need to be replaced and then caused the damage.
You will need a lot of luck to actually win that claim however. I don't know Norway's law system, but in the US, it would easily just get pushed back on the customer with "we told you about it. It was up to you to fix it".
There are also enough other reasons for engine failure that unless you can prove that it's the cause, it's easy for the dealer to shift the blame for the failure to something else.
Depending on what they actually find damaged, yes, you have a starting point for a claim against them if they told you that it didn't need to be replaced and then caused the damage.
You will need a lot of luck to actually win that claim however. I don't know Norway's law system, but in the US, it would easily just get pushed back on the customer with "we told you about it. It was up to you to fix it".
There are also enough other reasons for engine failure that unless you can prove that it's the cause, it's easy for the dealer to shift the blame for the failure to something else.
08-31-2011, 09:51 AM
#14
This isn't the only thing that can cause extensive damage that isn't covered by the manual.
Depending on what they actually find damaged, yes, you have a starting point for a claim against them if they told you that it didn't need to be replaced and then caused the damage.
You will need a lot of luck to actually win that claim however. I don't know Norway's law system, but in the US, it would easily just get pushed back on the customer with "we told you about it. It was up to you to fix it".
There are also enough other reasons for engine failure that unless you can prove that it's the cause, it's easy for the dealer to shift the blame for the failure to something else.
Depending on what they actually find damaged, yes, you have a starting point for a claim against them if they told you that it didn't need to be replaced and then caused the damage.
You will need a lot of luck to actually win that claim however. I don't know Norway's law system, but in the US, it would easily just get pushed back on the customer with "we told you about it. It was up to you to fix it".
There are also enough other reasons for engine failure that unless you can prove that it's the cause, it's easy for the dealer to shift the blame for the failure to something else.
08-31-2011, 10:25 AM
#15
Rockie Mountain Newbie
That doesn't mean anything at all, honestly.
What you should consider doing, is taking your car to a private mechanic (or if you have a good friend who owns tools), then have them remove the convertor from the car, and look at its condition.
If it is clogged up, you can consider destroying the material, to free up the restriction in your exhaust system.
If it is blown out, do nothing, except look for a replacement whenever you have time.
If it looks fine, do nothing.
Then you can go back to looking at the rest of the car for the current faults.
Since you never got around to the plugs and coils, you might want to have a compression test done before you invest the money into that. No point spending several hundred dollars only to need to turn around and spend several thousand more.
BC.
What you should consider doing, is taking your car to a private mechanic (or if you have a good friend who owns tools), then have them remove the convertor from the car, and look at its condition.
If it is clogged up, you can consider destroying the material, to free up the restriction in your exhaust system.
If it is blown out, do nothing, except look for a replacement whenever you have time.
If it looks fine, do nothing.
Then you can go back to looking at the rest of the car for the current faults.
Since you never got around to the plugs and coils, you might want to have a compression test done before you invest the money into that. No point spending several hundred dollars only to need to turn around and spend several thousand more.
BC.
08-31-2011, 10:34 AM
#16
That doesn't mean anything at all, honestly.
What you should consider doing, is taking your car to a private mechanic (or if you have a good friend who owns tools), then have them remove the convertor from the car, and look at its condition.
If it is clogged up, you can consider destroying the material, to free up the restriction in your exhaust system.
If it is blown out, do nothing, except look for a replacement whenever you have time.
If it looks fine, do nothing.
Then you can go back to looking at the rest of the car for the current faults.
Since you never got around to the plugs and coils, you might want to have a compression test done before you invest the money into that. No point spending several hundred dollars only to need to turn around and spend several thousand more.
BC.
What you should consider doing, is taking your car to a private mechanic (or if you have a good friend who owns tools), then have them remove the convertor from the car, and look at its condition.
If it is clogged up, you can consider destroying the material, to free up the restriction in your exhaust system.
If it is blown out, do nothing, except look for a replacement whenever you have time.
If it looks fine, do nothing.
Then you can go back to looking at the rest of the car for the current faults.
Since you never got around to the plugs and coils, you might want to have a compression test done before you invest the money into that. No point spending several hundred dollars only to need to turn around and spend several thousand more.
BC.
09-05-2011, 06:23 AM
#17
So i got a reply from the dealer today, will definitely be needing an new engine. I asked them if they had checked the cat, and they didnt.
Just waiting for them to call me back.
Just waiting for them to call me back.
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