Rx8manRich

Yes i used the search bar, and checked the STarting issues _ START HERE thread. I have tried a few things in there but non seem to be working so i want to explain my situiation and ask for advice on what to do next.

04' rx8 - 6spd manual 88k miles. Fresh oil, fresh everything. Old original starter.

So my car was running perfect one sec, and then dead the next. I may have run out of gas thats what i orignally thought happened. I was on my way to the inspection station and my Gas light came on, the nearest gas station was about 50 miles away ( i was in the middle of no where) i drove it all the way to the inspection station no problem and when i got there i stalled the car ( or so i think i dont know i never stall but whatever) I then figured okay the car ran out of gas, walked across the road, filled up a 5 gallon gas tank and walked back to my car. Put all of the gas in the car no problem.

Tried to crank it for about 10 minutes and it would not turn over. I then cranked it for about 1.5 hours without removing the fuel pump or anything because i was stuck at the inpection station and did not know anything other than the factory deflooding techniques. I did that for about 1.5 hours to 2 hours... in that time i managed to completely blow threw my battery.

I have a tow hook on the front of my car and at this point someone on here had told me, push start or pull start it, it may take a few miles to get the car cleared out of all the old gas - etc because apperintly 2 hours of flooding it is a REALLY bad flood. So i only live about 2 miles up the road. I got my girl to bring my truck and a couple hooks and chains, and had her carefully drive me in the rx8 home while it was in gear. It worked fine when it came down to it.

Everything turned on good after i dropped the clutch , the car would not rev though and if i depressed the clutch it would turn off instantly. No smoke came out of the exhaust. Not a single puff. I had a CEL so when i got home i used my AP to read it. It was 2 codes about my oil metering pump. I never had any issues with this before. I figured it was probably a fluke code from pull starting. I changed the spark plugs out. the next week and got a whole new battery.

REmoved the fuel pump and started cranking. Nothing. Still nothing about 1 hour later, still nothing. It just cranks and never sputters or anything. AS far a compression test i never needed one because it was always good. I can feel air coming out of the exhaust when i crank it, and also it came hard out of the spark plugs when i had them removed. put the fuel pump back in and still nothing. cranked for another hour - of course giving my starter time in between cranks to be sure i dont ruin the already worthless starter. Still nothing.

Next day, dead battery, bought another battery - now im 400$ in the hole (not really) and still have a dead car. Any advice for me before i kill this battery to to try and avoid that?

Thanks.

Hi wcs.. thanks for viewing this thread. i only made a new thread to explain my specific story, to see if anyone had any advice. I Appreciate it.

ALSO TO ADD. i did not change the coils or wires, just the plugs, the old ones were badly fouled. Also when i was cranking without the fuel pump, i did it for about an hour or so, and still nothing. If this helps too - i also hook my car up to my truck battery wise while i am cranking to avoid usage.

Also when i ermoved the spark plugs i inspeced them for any type of metal frags, even small little shavings ( i googled pictures of spark plugs on a blown apex seals rx8. Nothing to be concerned about on them. other than some antisieze (thank god for that)

hi riwwp, thanks for taking the time to view this thread, hopefully some advice you have will help. Appreciate it.

Also too, i dont have a cat on my car - instead of replacing it i went catless with a Tune to get a little extra HP. Can truely feel the dif.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Moved to troubleshooting

1) your hour estimates for cranking are hopefully exagerated, as you will kill your starter when cranking more than 10s at a time, and should be left to cool down for 5min periodically.

2) if you need to do lots of cranking, hook up the car to another via jumper cables. You won't get more than about 2 minutes of crank time before your battery wont have a charge enough to crank at the required speed. Going longer with a low battery is just reflooding it.

3) if you dont keep cranking the battery till it is actually at full discharge, then you probably didnt kill it, and it could be brought back with a trickle charger

4) your issue has to be either spark or fuel. Can you confirm each AND the method used to confirm it? Losing power suddenly is always a sudden halt of fuel or spark, usually both electrically related, either fuel pump shut down or losing a ground so that the plugs can no longer fire.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

edit ---- LOL RIWWP beat me again! ... ---- It's strange that a pull start didn't fix things, might be more to this then just a flood

Buy the upgraded starter (it sounds like you have the old style) it's worth every penny.

Statement above about nothing happening with the fuel pump removed is strange. One would expect nothing to happen, no?


Take the plugs out, and crank at 10 second intervals until you no longer see vapor coming out.

Can take up to 15 sets of 10 second cranks .. make sure to let starter cool between sets.

A battery charger helps as well.

Make sure to unplug ESS and the Fuel pump fuse.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Crossposting....

Why would you assume that cranking without a fuel pump for an hour would get you anywhere? What were you trying to accomplish

ASH8

Agree with above...

I would not necessary dismiss that your MOP has an issue...
Plus, why would you not think your Coils and or Wires need renewing?

YES, Why keep cranking when you are getting nothing??, there is a little tool that will test spark on HEI Ignition Systems (not expensive) KD 2756 Calibrated Ignition Tester (it is just a safe way of testing Ignition/Leads) for a strong bright consistent visual pulse spark.

Definitely go with a new Starter, go for a 2009+

Your post is so hard to read, IMO think you could have a few coils which have given up the ghost while drive all the way to your inspection station, hot day?

Rx8manRich

1) When i said 1 hour of cranking, i ment 1 hour of cranking in like 6-7s intervals with 30-40s breaks on the starter.

2) i had it hooked up to my truck, sorry my post was so un-organized or that would have been noticed. The reason my battery died was from when my wife had my truck and i would try and crank it. If i felt it feeling like it was not cranking to full power i would stop. I had the battery tested and it was pretty dead thoughSo instead of waiting 2 hours for them to charge it i got a new one.

3) Refer to #2

4) May i ask how to confirm spark? I just changed the spark plugs yesterday to the Denso High performance irridium plugs. I know the fuel pump is working because when i turn my car to the "on" position i can here my pumps turn on. it makes a specific noise in the back seats. If you could direct me on how to test the spark?

5) i wanted to add in that i did run out of gas, could there be a vapor bubble that is preventing gas from getting to the actual engine. My buddy who owned this car for 7 years prior to me owning it mentioned that because i may have ran out of fuel this may be a issue. He said if i removed A line from the engine and then stepped on the pedal gas should shoot out of it. If no gas shoots out of it and my fuel pumps are initiating then i may be trieng to deflood a car that is not recieving fuel. I have no idea what it was he wanted me to remove so i just stayed away from it (he just mentioned it today) and he said he was going to come over to try and figure it out. Any idea what he is talking about.

6) I want to say thank you, both Riwwp and WCS not only for not being dicks about my horrible post , but also for the great advice. Hopefully this post is alot easier to read and i will try to use this format more often,


^ thanks for the help!

Rich

Rx8manRich

Thanks for the advice, i'm sorry that my post was so hard to read i will try to make it better in the future.

1)*** I would not necessary dismiss that your MOP has an issue...
Plus, why would you not think your Coils and or Wires need renewing?
Answer: I never said or thought they didn't need reknewing, But why fix something that is not broken, if that is the cause of the problem they will surely get fixed, they were changed within 6000 miles. With the last spark plugs.

2) yes i have the origianl starter and yes it is puny compared to 09+ it only cranks out 194rpms to start according to my AP - The 09+ cranks out 220+

3)I would not necessary dismiss that your MOP has an issue...
What is a MOP issue. Do you mean the Metering oil pump? Is there a way to test this to see if this is the problem? Also will this cause my car to not crank up??

Thanks for the answers. You guys are AWESOME

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Ok ... I feel like we are all over the place here.
Trying to diagnose too many things at once.

I'm a bit confused where you are "at" in your troubleshooting so I'm just going to start from the beginning.

1) Let's make sure your car is not still flooded.

Lets put everything back together like the fuel pump.
Make sure the your battery is charged up.

a. Remove Fuel Pump fues
b. Unplug ESS
c. Remove plugs
d. Get Girlfriend or buddy to crank starter for 10 seconds.
e. You watch and note how misty the puffs of air are being expelled from spark plug holes
f. Check for fuel coming out of plug holes. Clean up fuel.
g. repeat until puffs are not misty and no fuel is present around plug holes.

May take 10 to 15 cranks cycles, charge battery between cycles.

h. re-install plugs and wires (double check L1 T1 L2 T2)
i. connect ESS (may throw a cell about ESS fault)
j. plug in fuel pump fuse.

Charge battery.
Try and start the car ... it should fire up. I've heard that all the fuel will lower compression as its removed much of the oil from the chamber.

If car doesn't start we move on from there.

Things to think about:
2) Look in to buying upgraded starter
The upgraded starter isn't cheap but it's awesome ... truly night and day difference in crank speed.

3) HEI Coil Tester thread and link to part
https://www.rx8club.com/do-yourself-...-wires-222641/

4) Fuel pump is burnt out due to running out of fuel. The fuel actually cools the pump.

5) OMP should continue to trip MIL if it is ruined. Failed OMP will put you in to limp mode.

Other random thoughts I have:
- Maybe clogged injector .. dirt
- Not to frighten you but I recall another member that ran his car out of fuel and it toasted his engine. It was long ago, I can't find the thread.
- Compression

RX8Soldier

iTrader: (24)

You read (and posted) in the "Starting issues:START HERE" thread, yet you missed the directions on how to test your coils? Reading comprehension is key to the success of your finding a solution...

There are DIY's out there that can easily assist you in troubleshooting your issue.
And, I'm not (trying) to be a dick here, but you should read up on ignition systems, and how a failure on one area will affect other areas. Bad starter > plugs > bad coils > bad emissions > bad engine (not necessarily in that order).

Rx8manRich

Thanks - I will try everything u said and come back to you after i have done A - J. You are right trying to diagnose too many things at one time will just cause more problems.

3 questions though please, and thank you.

1) Fuel pump is burnt out due to running out of fuel. The fuel actually cools the pump. ------ How can i test to see if this is a issue.

2) OMP should continue to trip MIL if it is ruined. Failed OMP will put you in to limp mode. ---- What is this " Limp Mode" you speak of. Can you explain what this means and how i can get out of Limp mode. I have been reading this thread if it matters.
https://www.rx8club.com/major-horsep...system-188941/


Thank you WCS and anyone else. I am not worthy.

Rx8manRich

Actually i read it all. I just wanted to share my specific story (because of the MOP) and the fact that i pulled my car home in gear to try and clear it.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post, and reply though.

Rich.

Rx8manRich

Other random thoughts I have:
- Maybe clogged injector .. dirt
- Not to frighten you but I recall another member that ran his car out of fuel and it toasted his engine. It was long ago, I can't find the thread.
- Compression

thats pretty scary stuff... i mean i put 5$ in it when the light came on thats like 1.5 gallons.. more than enough to get me by.. i would hope to god i didn't do this. How can i tell if this is that?

wcs

iTrader: (2)

1) You'll likely need to take the car in to Mazda for this and request a Fuel Line Pressure Inspection.

2) Limp Mode = car will not rev past 4k rpm (If I recall).

3) You can't get it out of limp mode until its fixed. If you clear the cel it will likely work maybe for a minute then go back to limp mode.


Thanks for the thread link .. hadn't read that one before.

Stick with the deflood for now.

Keep us posted

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Bah don't worry about this ... I was just thinking out loud.

He ran out at high RPM IIRC

Rx8manRich

1.) wells thats good, i stalled at 900rpms, lol.

2.) been trying some trouble shooting, cleaned all the snesors as well just to do it while i was under the hood with MAF cleaner.

3.) Trying the spark plugs as we speak, will it be okay to remove only 2 as removing all 4 in 110 degree heat is suicide?

4.) can't diagnose limp mode as of yet because she will not turn over.



I will update in a few hours the results of cranking without the spark plugs. I dont know where the ESS is located to remove that for step B.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

I would still remove all 4 but it's up to you, I would guess 2 should work.

When you say it will not turn over what do you mean exactly? That it won't crank or won't start running?

ESS info
https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...7/#post3758950

If you have the car up on jacks as I would expect you do as it's the easiest way to remove the spark plugs, you should be able to reach in there and unplug the ESS.

Rx8manRich

Update*****


I removed the L1 T1 plugs and will going in for the l2 t2, Also I found out how to clean the ESS

https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...eaning-206687/

6th post from the bottom has a nice diagram for 04-05 models.

Thanks!!

Rx8manRich

BEAT ME TO IT WCS lol.

Rx8manRich

When i say it will not turn over, i mean it will crank up and the starter will rev the car to 195 ish RPM (per my AcessPort) but it will not actually start up.

I will remove all 4, I will also upload some pictures to try and help you see what i am doing. Thanks for making this thread Better BTW!

Rx8manRich

1.) Well its not flooded that's for sure. I removed all spark plugs etc, cranked, not a drop of fuel came out, nor did a puff of smoke. It had a slight smell of some fresh 93 octane, similar to a bike smell though. I did 10 crank cycles with charging in between just for the hell of it while i had them out.

2.) I am thinking of maybe trying to clean the wires and coils to see if that's the issue, im going to run to Napa to get a tester.

Any thoughts?

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

You need to check your fuel pressure ...no fuel = no go

Do you have spark? Easy to check......

If both of those are OK then we can go other places

FYI...if the OMP is putting it into LimpMode...if you do a reset..the throttle will work for 3-4 sec and then stop openning. The car will idle fine though.....

Just for fun...unplug the MAF and try to start it ......

wcs

iTrader: (2)

For clarity .. you re-installed everything and tried to start it again, yes?

I'm thinking along the same lines about fuel.

One of the things that keeps coming back to me is the pull start.
OP said it started with the pull start but would continue to run with the clutch engaged.

FUEL LINE PRESSURE INSPECTION

FUEL PUMP UNIT INSPECTION

For more great references
M A Z D A <<<<<--- This last link works best in windows IE in compatibility mode (at least me it does)

Rx8manRich

Hey guys posting from my phone once again thanks so much for the awesome replys. Needs a quick update

1.) D you are right no fuel = no go.

Rx8manRich

Hey guys posting from my phone once again thanks so much for the awesome replys. Heres a quick update

1.) havnt checked fuel other than listening for the fuel pump and that checked out okay. I dont want to try to many things at once so im starting with the ignition systems.

2.) wcs no I did not try with everything re-installed yet for the sole reason that I wanted to check the coils and wires before I put the plugs back in just to make sure it was getting spark. I went to my local napa autoparts store nd got a spark tester that was referenced in another maitnence thread which I cant link to from my phone I think it was you or riwwp that sent me there. Low and behold non of ky plugs are sparking. Well I only check the l1 t1 and neither worked. Surely thats part of my problem. I lol thought they were changed 10k miles ago come to find out my buddy said he only changed the plugs and these are the original wires from getting the car. 88k miles.on plugs and wires and she ran strong thee whole time thats impressive. But I hear that they should be every 30k miles.

So thats where im at right now and I think im making big progress thanks to all the help. I should change all 4 wires u think??
1go.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

DUDE Important

Only the Lead plugs fire while you are cranking the motor.
So you'll only get firing from L1 and L2 .... sorry I should have mentioned that.

Yes get 4 new coils, however its seems to coincidental that this is happening at the same time you ran out of fuel.